U.S. soldier kills up to 16 Afghan civilians


Machjo
#91
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Are you against capital punishment?

I'm not in principle against capital punishment, so if it were a Canadian soldier my view and the governemnt's offical view would clearly be at odds. I'd say ensure a fair trial but otherwise hand him over to the Afghan courts, but the government could not allow it without first ensuring he won't receive capital punishment.

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Not sure if this came up - US troops burned the Koran in error - Lots of people killed.

US Soldier kills 16 - none killed so far.

It is clear what is more important and valued in that society.

One Afghan soldier killed and a few Afghan government officials injured so far. It's just starting to sink in.

BBC News - Afghanistan militants attack Kandahar killings site (external - login to view)
 
Goober
#92
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

I'm not in principle against capital punishment, so if it were a Canadian soldier my view and the governemnt's offical view would clearly be at odds. I'd say ensure a fair trial but otherwise hand him over to the Afghan courts, but the government could not allow it without first ensuring he won't receive capital punishment.



One Afghan soldier killed and a few Afghan government officials injured so far. It's just starting to sink in.

BBC News - Afghanistan militants attack Kandahar killings site (external - login to view)

I beg to differ - Pull up the time lines on the burning of the Koran and the deaths.
 
earth_as_one
+1 / -1
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Khadr was defending himself while under attack. There is no comparison to this act of brutality. Your comment is just a limp dick attempt at deflecting blame.

A good chance that Khadr would have been treated better by the Afghans than by the Americans. That's not a glowing appraisal of the Afghan penal system, but a condemnation of the excessive cruelty of American detention facilities like Gitmo and other black op detention facilities (AKA torture chambers). Hundreds or possibly thousands of people have "disappeared" into this American system. Many/most detainees have suffered torture and some may have been executed.

Likely the Afghans would have treated 15 year old Khadr as a POW or a child soldier. While the food and conditions are likely worse in the Afgan penal system, I doubt the Afghans would have tortured a 15 year old. Then again....???


The Americans classified Khadr as an adult illegal combatant, (meaning they have no defined rights either as a person or a POW or in Khadr's case, as a child). The Americans subjected Khadr to various tortures, inhumane and cruel treatment.
Khadr 'torture' confessions allowed - Americas - Al Jazeera English (external - login to view)

I don't support capital punishment or torture, but of the two, death is probably more humane than endless water boarding and sleep deprivation.

I am also against holding children to the same level of accountability as adults. I agree with retired lieutenant-general Roméo A. Dallair:

the current U.S. administration has become the first government in modern history to prosecute a former child soldier for war crimes. This unprecedented case not only risks the rule of law and due process concerning juvenile justice, it puts in peril hundreds of thousands of child soldiers to potential detention and prosecution for war crimes around the world.

In July 2002, a severely wounded 15-year-old Omar Khadr, a Canadian citizen, was captured following a firefight in Afghanistan. Accused of throwing a grenade that allegedly killed an American soldier, Khadr has spent a quarter of his life detained at Guantanamo Bay. In the past eight years of detention, he has faced cruel and inhumane treatment, including the threat of rape, physical and psychological abuse, possibly torture, and survived over three years of solitary confinement.

Despite being a juvenile, Khadr was incarcerated with adult inmates and subjected to unlawful interrogation techniques that created a serious risk of physical and psychological harm. It was under these conditions, and with no legal representation, that his self-incriminatory confessions were elicited and will be used as evidence in his Guantanamo Bay trial.


Omar Khadr trial imperils all child soldiers - thestar.com
 
EagleSmack
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

I'm not in principle against capital punishment, so if it were a Canadian soldier my view and the governemnt's offical view would clearly be at odds. I'd say ensure a fair trial but otherwise hand him over to the Afghan courts, but the government could not allow it without first ensuring he won't receive capital punishment.

Assuming this guy is guilty... which I believe he is... he will assuredly be found guilty in Afghan Courts. I doubt the Afghans would make that agreement. I doubt he would survive a year if they did. Also, Capital Punishment is pretty gruesome over there. I've seen murderers have their throats slit by family members. Actually sawed through.

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

I beg to differ - Pull up the time lines on the burning of the Koran and the deaths.

I saw that too Goober and was going to mention it. After the Koran burning the place exploded immediately.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

A good chance that Khadr would have been treated better by the Afghans than by the Americans.

LMAO. Really? Do you have any clue what Afghans were doing to foreign fighters at that time? Khadr would have been killed without question.
 
Goober
#95
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

If that was true, then the story would have broke as:

"16 militants killed during raid"
....Cache of weapons discovered and safely destroyed. Soldier's actions prevents jihadist suicide attacks

Then the person responsible would have been decorated for bravery. That's normally the way the US reports US soldiers going on a rampage murdering innocent civilians. Since this came out as a murder, I suspect the other soldiers feel this guy crossed a line of some sort. Otherwise they would have covered his ***.



This case won't be news either in a very short time. Its already dropping off the media radar. I give it 2 more days and then that's it. This event will be forgotten just like Haditha.

This soldier will not be held accountable for his crime. He will get a light slap on the wrist, just like the soldiers who murdered a toddler, 7 children, 3 women, a 76 year old in a wheel chair and 12 others in Haditha.

You are full of Shxt - about covering up.
 
Cliffy
+2
#96
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Yeah, sure Cliffy.

Let me ask you a question on the Khadr thing... Exactly what was this Canadian boy defending in Afghanistan?

He was a 15 year old kid whose father dragged him over there. Soldiers had just wiped out all his companions and were approaching to, for all he knew, to finish him off. He was wounded and he threw a grenade at the approaching soldier. I think that anybody in that situation would have done the same thing.

I'm sure that you, at age 15, were fully mature and had all your intellectual capacities fully function and that is why you can't understand how a 15 year old was just obeying his father.
 
Goober
#97
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

He was a 15 year old kid whose father dragged him over there. Soldiers had just wiped out all his companions and were approaching to, for all he knew, to finish him off. He was wounded and he threw a grenade at the approaching soldier. I think that anybody in that situation would have done the same thing.

I'm sure that you, at age 15, were fully mature and had all your intellectual capacities fully function and that is why you can't understand how a 15 year old was just obeying his father.

And his Mother and family went along with it. Support Jihad - Not one charge laid against them. At the least it is child abuse, endangering a childs life -
 
Cliffy
#98
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

And his Mother and family went along with it. Support Jihad - Not one charge laid against them. At the least it is child abuse, endangering a childs life -

I agree. His mother should be punished. How does a public stoning sound to you?
 
Ocean Breeze
#99
Quote:

Afghan Students Lead Protests as Word of Massacre Spreads

- Common Dreams staff
Hundreds of Afghans, mostly students, took to the streets in eastern Afghanistan on Tuesday to express their anger for the slaughter of civilians by a US soldier on Sunday and to call for an end to the US and NATO occupation that has gone on for more than a decade.

Afghan Students Lead Protests as Word of Massacre Spreads | Common Dreams (external - login to view)
 
Goober
#100
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I agree. His mother should be punished. How does a public stoning sound to you?

If your point is sarcasm fine. If your point is they - the mother, grandparents did nothing wrong then explain it.
 
Cliffy
#101
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

If your point is sarcasm fine. If your point is they - the mother, grandparents did nothing wrong then explain it.

Truth is, I do think the mother should be punished. Any mother that sanctions sending their son to war should be. My first thought was she should be shot, but since she obviously supports Jihad, then maybe stoning would be more appropriate.
 
Ocean Breeze
#102
Quote:

Death penalty possible in Afghan massacre: Panetta

Death penalty possible in Afghan massacre: Panetta | Reuters (external - login to view)
 
CDNBear
#103
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

He was a 15 year old kid whose father dragged him over there.

He left his father and began further training and extremist education, on his own.
 
Ocean Breeze
#104
Quote:

Reuters) - Suspected insurgents opened fire on Tuesday on senior Afghan investigators of the massacre of 16 civilians by a lone U.S. soldier, Afghan officials said, just hours after the Taliban threatened to behead American troops to avenge the killings.

Afghan government team attacked, Taliban fume over massacre | Reuters
 
Cliffy
#105
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

He left his father and began further training and extremist education, on his own.

When I was 15, the only thing I knew about politics is what my father told me. The implications of politics didn't really begin to sink in until I was about 21. Wasn't his father killed in the action that got him caught?

How to win friends and influence people.
 
Ocean Breeze
#106
Quote:

How to win friends and influence people.

Indeed. Nothing like slaughtering a group of innocent civilians (that includes toddlers and kids) to win the "hearts and minds " of the nation being occupied.

One cannot blame the Afghans (regardless of persuasion) for being enraged.

Don't think the US would take too kindly if this happened in the US.

They have been living in war torn conditions for over a decade and these "incidents' just keep recurring as if they are part of the occupiers MO.

Didn't the invasion of Afghanistan have something to do with OBL who was not even in that country?? The stupidity of the original warmongers boggles the mind.

this is just another example of US arrogance ......which believes it can do whatever it wants to who ever it wants...without regard to the law, ethics or humanitarian principles. And that is what most of the rest of the world is reporting about this latest atrocity.
 
lone wolf
+5
#107
Somehow you confuse rogue action with official policy. Is this really the investigative nature of a "peace lover"?
 
earth_as_one
+1
#108
I think his point was that the Afghan public won't make that distinction.

I also believe that most Afghan will see this senseless massacre by an American soldier as simply the latest senseless massacre in a long line of senseless massacres by American soldiers. I expect that most Afghans will blame all Americans for this massacre, in the same way that most Americans blamed all Muslims for the events of 9/11.

It would be unrealistic to expect most Afghans would be more informed, reasonable and tolerant than most Americans.
 
Ocean Breeze
+2
#109
Do the Afghans really KNOW why the US invaded ??? What have they been told?? Didn't they have the right to defend themselves?? Do they not have the right to be angry at seeing these slaughters repeat themselves into the eleventh year?? What has their life been like over the past decade. Maybe they do not have the sophistication of the west........but they are people too, The reality is that NO ONE can come in and introduce change from the outside as there is no way of knowing exactly what stage they are at in devlopement and where they want to go.

Each such incident is not helping them or the US at all. It is not up to the Afghans to "win the hearts and influence others ). It was the invaders premise (or one of them ) when they entered their country.
 
earth_as_one
+1
#110
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

... Do you have any clue what Afghans were doing to foreign fighters at that time? Khadr would have been killed without question.

Do you have any clue what Americans did to illegal combatants? We never saw all the pictures from Abu Ghraib and other Black Op sites. My understanding that American abuses included endless water boardings, beatings, dog attacks, rape, shackling in stress positions for days-weeks... Some detainees died slow and painful deaths at the hands of American soldiers. Here are the resulting charges and convictions:

Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan became the highest ranking officer to have charges brought against him in connection with the Abu Ghraib abuse on April 29, 2006.[55] Prior to his trial, eight of twelve charges against him were dismissed, two of the most serious after Major General George Fay admitted that he did not read Jordan his rights before interviewing him in reference to the abuses that had taken place. On August 28, 2007, Jordan was acquitted of all charges related to prisoner mistreatment and received a reprimand for disobeying an order not to discuss a 2004 investigation into the allegations.[56]

Specialist Charles Graner was found guilty on January 14, 2005 of conspiracy to maltreat detainees, failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty, and maltreatment, as well as charges of assault, indecency, adultery, and obstruction of justice. On January 15, 2005, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison, dishonorable discharge and reduction in rank to private.[57][58] Graner was paroled from the US military's Fort Leavenworth prison on 6 August 2011 after serving six-and-a-half years.[59]

Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick pled guilty on October 20, 2004 to conspiracy, dereliction of duty, maltreatment of detainees, assault and committing an indecent act in exchange for other charges being dropped. His abuses included forcing three prisoners to masturbate. He also punched one prisoner so hard in the chest that he needed resuscitation. He was sentenced to eight years in prison, forfeiture of pay, a dishonorable discharge and a reduction in rank to private.[60]

Sergeant Javal Davis pled guilty February 4, 2005 to dereliction of duty, making false official statements and battery. He was sentenced to six months in prison, a reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.

Specialist Jeremy Sivits was sentenced on May 19, 2004 by a special court-martial to the maximum one-year sentence, in addition to a bad conduct discharge and a reduction of rank to private, upon his plea of guilty.[61]

Specialist Armin Cruz was sentenced on September 11, 2004 to eight months confinement, reduction in rank to private and a bad conduct discharge in exchange for his testimony against other soldiers.[62]

Specialist Sabrina Harman was sentenced on May 17, 2005 to six months in prison and a bad conduct discharge after being convicted on six of the seven counts. She had faced a maximum sentence of five years.[63] Harman served her sentence at Naval Consolidated Brig, Miramar.[64]

Specialist Megan Ambuhl was convicted on October 30, 2004, of dereliction of duty and sentenced to reduction in rank to private and loss of a half-month’s pay.[65]

Private First Class Lynndie England was convicted on September 26, 2005, of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count. England had faced a maximum sentence of ten years. She was sentenced on September 27, 2005, to three years confinement, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reduction to Private (E-1) and received a dishonorable discharge.[60] England had served her sentence at Naval Consolidated Brig, Miramar.[66]

Sergeant Santos Cardona was convicted of dereliction of duty and aggravated assault, the equivalent of a felony in the US civilian justice system. He served 90 days of hard labor at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He was then transferred to a new unit where he trained Iraqi police.[67] Cardona was unable to re-enlist due to the conviction, and left the army in 2007. In 2009, he was killed in action while working as a government contractor in Afghanistan.

Specialist Roman Krol pled guilty on February 1, 2005 to conspiracy and maltreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib. He was sentenced to ten months confinement, reduction in rank to private, and a bad conduct discharge.[68]

Specialist Israel Rivera, who was present during abuse on October 25, was under investigation but was never charged and testified against other soldiers.

Sergeant Michael Smith was found guilty on March 21, 2006 of two counts of prisoner maltreatment, one count of simple assault, one count of conspiracy to maltreat, one count of dereliction of duty and a final charge of an indecent act, and sentenced to 179 days in prison, a fine of $2,250, a demotion to private, and a bad conduct discharge.
 
gopher
+1
#111
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Are you against capital punishment?

Only when utilized on a racially selective basis as it is done so often in the States as we have discussed on other threads. Any other time, BRING ON THE HANGMAN!
 
Ocean Breeze
-1
#112
Quote:

... Do you have any clue what Afghans were doing to foreign fighters at that time? Khadr would have been killed without question.

It is time that the US paid attention to its own behavior as that is the only behavior they have control over. Time to stop looking for excuses to do the dastardly things the US troops have been doing....

It is long over due that the US should have been out of there . and yet it keeps coming up with excuses to stay. and occupy.

that alone is enough to diss the Afghans off. They cannot ever be free to create the country they want based on their culture etc etc until all fragments of the occupier is gone. Unfortunately the occupier wants to create their dependancy on the US .....so that they will begin to feel they can't function with out the US . No one is addressing that aspect of this dynamic.

Remember: if American troops or civilians are beheaded in revenge........ it is a direct result of the american 's dastardly actions. Seems to be long overdue that the US take ownership of what it has done and continues to do and start making some repairs.

Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Only when utilized on a racially selective basis as it is done so often in the States as we have discussed on other threads. Any other time, BRING ON THE HANGMAN!


Heck............just let Nancy Grace handle the prosecution of this killer./murderer You know how she gets about children being abused and killed. Slaughtering a toddler and other very young kids goes so far into the barbaric realm , it is hard to grasp.

Justice Nancy style.........is as close to hanging by the gonads as it gets.
 
Just the Facts
#113
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I expect that most Afghans will blame all Americans for this massacre, in the same way that most Americans blamed all Muslims for the events of 9/11.

That's a relief, I was worried that most Afghani's might blame all Americans for the massacre.
 
Ocean Breeze
#114
Quote:

Cameron in US: Public want Afghanistan 'endgame'

BBC News - Cameron in US: Public want Afghanistan 'endgame' (external - login to view)


Long overdue...

Quote:

Taliban Attacks Karzai Officials at Massacre Site (external - login to view)

Threatened 'Reprisals' Come Quickly

by Jason Ditz, March 13, 2012
| Print This (external - login to view) | Share This (external - login to view) | Antiwar Forum (external - login to view)
The Taliban’s threat of violent retaliation in response to the US massacre over the weekend was followed up quickly with an attack on an Afghan government team at the massacre site.


Taliban Attacks Karzai Officials at Massacre Site -- News from Antiwar.com (external - login to view)

Quote:

The Afghan Curtain Falls More Rapidly
by Ivan Eland (external - login to view), March 14, 2012

The recent “unpleasantness” in Afghanistan — the killing spree by a U.S. soldier, the burning of Qurans, and desecration of Taliban corpses — has made the quagmire there even more unpopular with the American public, thus causing even superhawks, such Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, to question the American military’s mission there

The Afghan Curtain Falls More Rapidly by Ivan Eland -- Antiwar.com (external - login to view)
 
Colpy
#115
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

Agree 100%. This was not an act of war but of murder. Therefore, the alleged attacker should be before an Afghan court.

Except....the guy has a right to a fair trial.....by military tribunal.
 
Ocean Breeze
-1
#116
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Except....the guy has a right to a fair trial.....by military tribunal.

Not so sure about that anymore. IF that principle truly applied .......then those assassinated by special ops have committed a major international crime....... Where was the right to a fair trial for those slaughtered like animals by US forces???

You see........the US has set a precident now that makes the right to a fair trial a joke. (when it relates to any american involvement ) Other nations (in the civilized world ) still have a modicum of humanitarian law in place.
 
Colpy
#117
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Not so sure about that anymore. IF that principle truly applied .......then those assassinated by special ops have committed a major international crime....... Where was the right to a fair trial for those slaughtered like animals by US forces???

You see........the US has set a precident now that makes the right to a fair trial a joke. (when it relates to any american involvement ) Other nations (in the civilized world ) still have a modicum of humanitarian law in place.

Don't be ridiculous.

Despite its xcurrent problems, the USA is one of the freeest nations on earth.

This guy is serving in the US military, so that is how he should be tried.

Some people (Osama) don't get trials, as they are combatants....NOT criminals.
 
Vanni Fucci
+1
#118
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Some people (Osama) don't get trials, as they are combatants....NOT criminals.

You know as well as anyone that it was the Bush administration that devised the "enemy combatant" designation to contravene due process and the Geneva Convention's rules on treatment of prisoners of war...
 
Ariadne
+3
#119
I would like to see the people involved accused, arrested, charged and prosecuted where the offence took place. This sounds like a home invasion with a gun where home invaders shot and killed sixteen people, including small children and girls. I think it would be a huge mistake to pretend that he was an on duty soldier that temporarily lost his mind. That is not what happened. This was a certified soldier that went awol while in Afghanistan. No excuses should be made.

Has the military lost its guts or something?

How can this be viewed as anything other than an AWOL that had nothing to do with military decisions. The guy needs to be terminated, not coddled in a happy soldier's prison in a country that enjoys capital punishment for locals that commit the same crime. The US needs to stop pretending that when their citizens commit really horrible crimes in foreign countries, they are safe in the US. It kind of gives the message that it's okay to commit crimes in foreign countries (Amanda Knox).
Last edited by Ariadne; Mar 14th, 2012 at 01:45 AM..
 
Ocean Breeze
+1
#120
Good post , A.

seems that this time, the powers that be will have a challenge spinning this one so as to put it under a more favorable light........ie excuse it on some made up grounds.

Some have the nerve to suggest he had been drinking......implying that booze was behind such an atrocious act. BS.

even if it were true or that he was stoned out of his head........It was HE that did the drinking /drugging by choice and other choices followed ....

This killer is totally responsible for this act. The military can no longer protect these misfits and deal with them quickly, smartly and appropriately. Or send him back to Afghanistan where HE COMMITTED THE CRIME. And let him take his chances there.
 
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