B.C. School teachers - What would be fair?


JLM
+1
#31
[QUOTE=taxslave;1555248


Because the BCTF likes none of the above yardsticks. They don't even like handing out ribbons at sports day because the kids that didn't win might have their feelings hurt. They have lowered our education standards to the lowest common denominator where the poor learners are coddled and the best and brightest are left to their own devices. Worse they have managed to convince the parents of every kid that they can label "special needs" that it is their right to have special teachers and assistants for each kid.At the highest pay in Canada with 2 weeks paid vacation when Great aunt Marthas budgie dies or anyone they know has a cold.. Not a single care about the taxpayer.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly why Gov't. is so high priced. When I worked for them, everyone within a classification reached the top pay scale within 3 or 4 years, time being the only criteria- ability or job performance didn't enter into it. Much of the time people got promoted because of who they knew not what they knew! Sickening.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

I think the biggest part of the issue is that politicians are paying themselves first. They're not investing in the long game that would naturally pay them well, instead they're making the top of the pyramid heavy, while undermining the base. But that's not the teachers' faults. Disallowing them pay because politicians took too much makes no sense. That's for the politicians to be accountable for.

That sounds familiar, in fact it's what financial advisors have told me to do.
 
damngrumpy
+1
#32
This is what you get when you illegally tear up contracts when you first come to office,
as Gordon Campbell did. The teachers are going back and trying to get what they had
years ago. I agree 15% is too much right now. Cost of living is realistic but the Liberals
did an end around by agreeing in other contracts that if anyone gets a raise, all contracts
can be reopened.
I do think the teachers are right in many ways but not all things. The problem is what went
before and now the kids are taking sides and they are on the teachers side. Ask many in
communities, they are evenly split on the issue.
The demand for better class sizes is good, the idea of compassionate leave is not to the
point they are asking. The problem is when you are bargaining with slippery people like the
Liberal Government that has demonstrated they don't even have respect for the law means
you have to be prepared to fight. This government spent like drunken sailors with their
cost plus contracts that means all construction ends up over budget. They handed out huge
tax breaks to the very rich and now they can't balance the books. They have raised fees
on almost everything while claiming they are keeping taxes down.
If I was a teacher, I wouldn't trust these people either, I would be asking for a lot to make up
for what the government stole, when they illegally cancelled contracts.
Both sides have to start over and come to some sane agreement. As for the strike? Its a
democracy and they have a right to strike. Having rights is not a problem for some, its when
they decide to exercise their rights, well that is different.
This is going to be another nail in the coffin of the BC Liberals.
 
JLM
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

This is what you get when you illegally tear up contracts when you first come to office,
as Gordon Campbell did. The teachers are going back and trying to get what they had
years ago. I agree 15% is too much right now. Cost of living is realistic but the Liberals
did an end around by agreeing in other contracts that if anyone gets a raise, all contracts
can be reopened.

I don't normally agree with tearing up contracts and I think Campbell was on a slippery slope in doing so. But from what I can understand those contracts were imposed by the Dipper Gov't under Clark or Harcourt, and I know speaking for myself I would not be happy about paying off debt charged to me and imposed by someone else. I also condemn Campbell for the obscene raised to helped himself and his minions to. Perhaps if Christy Clark was to realize that would come back to haunt them on election day she would roll them back, but that is the only way I can see that happening. I think we have to look at the population as a whole and try to improve the lot of the poorest (working members, not the drones and parasites) first, and perhaps teachers should patiently await their turn. By the looks of the vehicles in the school parking lots I don't think they are starving.
 
captain morgan
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

A provincial curriculum designed to meet trade, college, and/or university standards upon exiting, with standardized testing to ensure that schools are following said curriculum, seems like a pretty successful system of measurement. I won't disagree about the importance of an assortment of learning paths available to students, but BC has private schools so I don't qite understand your point.

The comparative measuring suggestion was directed more at measuring the effectiveness of the teachers in relation to all in the system, the premise being, those educators that are superior shouldn't be hand-cuffed by salary caps and those that are inferior are shown the door.

You live in AB and you've seen the job actions that went on for years withe the ATA - you could set your watch by it at one point. Since the AB gvt has started handing out more licenses for Charter schools (and private), there is a relative measuring device in place and you're seeing the nature of the ATA's beefs have evolved in response.

In this case and in my opinion, the BCTF is fronting egregious demands on many fronts, especially in this economic climate

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Because the BCTF likes none of the above yardsticks. They don't even like handing out ribbons at sports day because the kids that didn't win might have their feelings hurt. They have lowered our education standards to the lowest common denominator where the poor learners are coddled and the best and brightest are left to their own devices. Worse they have managed to convince the parents of every kid that they can label "special needs" that it is their right to have special teachers and assistants for each kid.At the highest pay in Canada with 2 weeks paid vacation when Great aunt Marthas budgie dies or anyone they know has a cold.. Not a single care about the taxpayer.

You sound surprised... This is the same group that whines about other professions or sectors that make more money than them, but they absolutely refuse to assume any risk position and demand the rewards as if they have.

I have yet to see the day that the unions sign a document that would set their wage scales to a mechanism that would reflect opportunity for increases as well as decreases.
 
taxslave
+2
#35
Grumpy: Of course the kids are going to take the teacher's side. Aside from the fact that the vast majority of teachers are dippers and have been indoctrinating kids since daycare guess who decides on the marks kids need to get into university.
I have had talks with teachers that do not toe the party line and they are afraid to speak their minds because of reprisals by their so called union.
 
JLM
+1
#36
The primary if not sole concern of the B.C.T.F. is their own longevity. (And I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn for anyone who believes otherwise)
 
Cliffy
+1
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The primary if not sole concern of the B.C.T.F. is their own longevity. (And I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn for anyone who believes otherwise)

That seems to be the primary concern of any organization. Singling out unions is a form of tunnel vision. Either we pay to have our children educated or admit, once and for all, that schools are just expensive baby sitting services and pay their sitters minimum wage.
 
taxslave
+1
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

That seems to be the primary concern of any organization. Singling out unions is a form of tunnel vision. Either we pay to have our children educated or admit, once and for all, that schools are just expensive baby sitting services and pay their sitters minimum wage.

Considering the quality of many of the grads I think we have already proven the education system is a failure. After 12 years in school they haven't even figured out that it is important to show up at starting time or fill out a time card every day. Sometimes I wonder who taught them how to dress for work too.
 
JLM
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Considering the quality of many of the grads I think we have already proven the education system is a failure. After 12 years in school they haven't even figured out that it is important to show up at starting time or fill out a time card every day. Sometimes I wonder who taught them how to dress for work too.

While I see some kids today with a good attitude, I see others whose sole concern seems to be doing what suits them!
 
Cliffy
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

While I see some kids today with a good attitude, I see others whose sole concern seems to be doing what suits them!

Oh! Heaven forbid that someone do what they want to do. Is it a human's place in society to do the bidding of the majority of the sheeple? Is a protestant work ethic the end all and be all for everyone? Sooner or later, kids will figure out whether they want to participate in the Matrix or not. With a little life experience under their belts, they either decide to join or leave permanently. I think that is what freedom is about. To force everybody to accept the status quo is a form of tyranny I would not accept myself.... Oh, I didn't.
 
captain morgan
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Sooner or later, kids will figure out whether they want to participate in the Matrix or not. With a little life experience under their belts, they either decide to join or leave permanently. I think that is what freedom is about. To force everybody to accept the status quo is a form of tyranny I would not accept myself.... Oh, I didn't.

You do participate in 'the matrix' Cliffy... I assume that you use the services, infrastructure and whatnot that is offered by society.
 
JLM
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Oh! Heaven forbid that someone do what they want to do. Is it a human's place in society to do the bidding of the majority of the sheeple? Is a protestant work ethic the end all and be all for everyone? Sooner or later, kids will figure out whether they want to participate in the Matrix or not. With a little life experience under their belts, they either decide to join or leave permanently. I think that is what freedom is about. To force everybody to accept the status quo is a form of tyranny I would not accept myself.... Oh, I didn't.

As long as what they do doesn't interfere with anyone else I have no problem, but I do have a problem when I have to pay for someone else's agenda!
 
taxslave
+1
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Oh! Heaven forbid that someone do what they want to do. Is it a human's place in society to do the bidding of the majority of the sheeple? Is a protestant work ethic the end all and be all for everyone? Sooner or later, kids will figure out whether they want to participate in the Matrix or not. With a little life experience under their belts, they either decide to join or leave permanently. I think that is what freedom is about. To force everybody to accept the status quo is a form of tyranny I would not accept myself.... Oh, I didn't.

When they are on the payroll yes. Same as when what they do on their own time affects job performance. No one has a right to a paycheque. It has to be earned. For government employees it makes no difference but we are contractors and their lack of performance directly impacts our profit.
 
pgs
+1
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Oh! Heaven forbid that someone do what they want to do. Is it a human's place in society to do the bidding of the majority of the sheeple? Is a protestant work ethic the end all and be all for everyone? Sooner or later, kids will figure out whether they want to participate in the Matrix or not. With a little life experience under their belts, they either decide to join or leave permanently. I think that is what freedom is about. To force everybody to accept the status quo is a form of tyranny I would not accept myself.... Oh, I didn't.

As one of my coworkers said,
These are kids,they only want to play.
Supporting the teachers gets them out of class and lets them play.
That is all they care about.
And despite ordering his kids not to walk out in support of the teachers he knows they will
because of peer pressure.
But Cliffy talks about the sheeple.
 
Spade
+1
#45
While I agree that a paycheque must be earnt, what we are debating is what is a fair wage. Simply because an employee opts in to a career of service to others does not mean he gives up on a fair wage. And, collective action is one means to that end. Also, that collective action helps us to focus on what our society should value.
 
Cliffy
+1
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

As long as what they do doesn't interfere with anyone else I have no problem, but I do have a problem when I have to pay for someone else's agenda!

That is a very weird sentiment. You are paying for all kinds of agendas that you may not agree with. In fact, everything in this societal/political/economic system is someone else's agenda. Your participation pays for the ruling class's agenda.
 
The Old Medic
+5
#47  Top Rated Post
Fire 100% of the strikers! Re[place them with people willing to work for the inflated wages, and very generous benefits that teachers get. And then, ban ANY Unions from involvement in education.
 
JLM
+1
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by The Old MedicView Post

Fire 100% of the strikers! Re[place them with people willing to work for the inflated wages, and very generous benefits that teachers get. And then, ban ANY Unions from involvement in education.

Yep, it would be nice if that would work!
 
LiesOfTheIntell
-1
#49
Interesting the assumptiveness of those steeped in the lore of the intelligentsia. The question is: what have the teachers done to earn a raise? but the question posed assumes a raise, we just don't know how much of one.

Such arrogance. Given that about 55% of Prov. Gov't revenues go to wages, those somewhat extravagant salaries (certainly in the health sector) and gold plated pension plans are paid for by debt.
 
JLM
+1
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by LiesOfTheIntellView Post

Interesting the assumptiveness of those steeped in the lore of the intelligentsia. The question is: what have the teachers done to earn a raise? but the question posed assumes a raise, we just don't know how much of one.

Such arrogance. Given that about 55% of Prov. Gov't revenues go to wages, those somewhat extravagant salaries (certainly in the health sector) and gold plated pension plans are paid for by debt.

The teachers aren't entirely at fault in this. Every one these days THINKS they are worth $30-$40 an hour and more and the Unions by and large are just a fourth level of bureaucracy and even more useless than the other 3 levels. I was brought up in a world where we COULDN'T spend money we didn't have- much less than expect a raise in pay when the employer is $60 billion in debt. It makes no kind of economic sense and it makes even less moral sense. One of these days very soon the whole sh*tteree is going to collapse. Then perhaps some sanity will return.
 
Niflmir
+2
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by The Old MedicView Post

Fire 100% of the strikers! Re[place them with people willing to work for the inflated wages, and very generous benefits that teachers get. And then, ban ANY Unions from involvement in education.

Then twenty years from now start asking yourself why nobody wants to be a teacher anymore, and why BC students score so poorly on international standardized exams. I'm sure the government of that day will just blame the government from the previous term, instead of the actual culprits from decades before.

You don't get quality education by offering peanuts to the teachers. You don't do a service to the next generation by being miserly on their education. You want people of merit to teach children, then you have to pay what those people are worth, otherwise the people of merit will not go into education but into industry, where they will make much more money than what they do now. Education used to be a respectable career, now they are so maligned for political points, people with real sense need to think twice before entering the career. For the level of education, they are not payed competitively, and the public widely despises them.

Think about your suggestion. Think carefully if what you actually want in a teacher is a person willing to work for minimum wage or a person of merit.
 
JLM
+2
#52
$70,000 a year is not "peanuts"!
 
captain morgan
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Then twenty years from now start asking yourself why nobody wants to be a teacher anymore, and why BC students score so poorly on international standardized exams.

Maybe we work to change the system and 20 years from now, we'll have a population of teachers that are highly effective. Fact is, BC students are scoring poorly on the standardized tests despite the endless strikes and demands for better pay and benefits which always is touted as the end-all-be-all solution.

Hasn't worked yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

You don't get quality education by offering peanuts to the teachers.

Take the pay scale and pro rate it over 9 or 10 months, it ain't peanuts in any form.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

You don't do a service to the next generation by being miserly on their education. You want people of merit to teach children, then you have to pay what those people are worth, otherwise the people of merit will not go into education but into industry, where they will make much more money than what they do now. Education used to be a respectable career, now they are so maligned for political points, people with real sense need to think twice before entering the career. For the level of education, they are not payed competitively, and the public widely despises them.

Unionized equations do not reward the best and weed-out the worst... It's a milquetoast solution that rarely is capable of competing with the private sector.

Want the best teachers? Pay them what they are worth - superior/above average compensation, but it must be earned through achieving superior results.
 
JLM
+1
#54
Perhaps if the teachers read the posts at the end of the many news articles on C.B.C. news (literally thousands) they might understand that support for them is only luke warm at best, and has cooled off since they voted to go on strike.
 
Spade
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Want the best teachers? Pay them what they are worth - superior/above average compensation, but it must be earned through achieving superior results.

How are superior resulys defined? Are superior results the same for children struggling with English as Another Language, or in poverty, the same as for those children in high socio-economic neighbourhoods?

Most teacxhers have five or six years of post-secondary training. What is that education worth elsewhere in the market?
 
Niflmir
+1
#56
Of course it is peanuts. You have to compare it to what a person with the equivalent education could earn. You need a 4 years bachelor's degree to qualify for a BEd, then you need 1-2 years to finish that. For the same training you could get a Master's in chemistry or computer science and get a nice job making $150k or more, depending where you go. Many people choose education because it is something that they look up to, yet more and more teaching is a no longer a career people feel proud of.

And that is the real source of problems. Education programs have been eviscerated by governments since I was in elementary school. Constantly making cuts and changes has led to the current situation. Making further cuts and changes to entice improvements is just ignorant policy. Spinning propaganda so that teachers are viewed with disdain just makes people steer clear of it.
 
JLM
+4
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Of course it is peanuts. You have to compare it to what a person with the equivalent education could earn. You need a 4 years bachelor's degree to qualify for a BEd, then you need 1-2 years to finish that. For the same training you could get a Master's in chemistry or computer science and get a nice job making $150k or more, depending where you go. Many people choose education because it is something that they look up to, yet more and more teaching is a no longer a career people feel proud of.

And that is the real source of problems. Education programs have been eviscerated by governments since I was in elementary school. Constantly making cuts and changes has led to the current situation. Making further cuts and changes to entice improvements is just ignorant policy. Spinning propaganda so that teachers are viewed with disdain just makes people steer clear of it.

Add to the "peanuts" a pension plan, sick leave days, healthcare plan, dental plan, 10 weeks summer vacation, two week Xmas vacation 2 weeks spring break. Amount of education is not the only criteria for evaluating a job, job security (high) for good teachers is a reality, tempertature regulated working environment is another, opportunties for further education is another.......................can you name me a single amenity they don't get? Time for them to quit whining!
 
Niflmir
+1
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Add to the "peanuts" a pension plan, sick leave days, healthcare plan, dental plan, 10 weeks summer vacation, two week Xmas vacation 2 weeks spring break. Amount of education is not the only criteria for evaluating a job, job security (high) for good teachers is a reality, tempertature regulated working environment is another, opportunties for further education is another.......................can you name me a single amenity they don't get? Time for them to quit whining!

Can you tell me a single one of those that the government doesn't try to sack every time the contract negotiations open up? That is why they go on strike.

Minus the summer vacation, those are all things that every other career of note that a person of the same education would expect to have. Failing that, they would expect to make more money to make up for it. Here's a few things I have in industry that teachers don't have: automatic raise for inflation every year, automatic raise if performance review is positive, automatic bonus pay if I bring in more profit than 2.5x my salary, choice of when to take my vacations, mileage sharing, subsidies for biking, flexible hours.

You have to ask yourself, are we giving teachers enough so that the people that become teachers are not the worst people in their class? Teaching needs to be a legitimate career choice, otherwise the good people will go somewhere else and we will have the rubbish teaching the next generation. If you want the best, then you have to compete with other industries to get those people. If you are willing to have less than the best teachers, than I guess you just value education less than me.
 
talloola
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

This is what you get when you illegally tear up contracts when you first come to office,
as Gordon Campbell did. The teachers are going back and trying to get what they had
years ago. I agree 15% is too much right now. Cost of living is realistic but the Liberals
did an end around by agreeing in other contracts that if anyone gets a raise, all contracts
can be reopened.
I do think the teachers are right in many ways but not all things. The problem is what went
before and now the kids are taking sides and they are on the teachers side. Ask many in
communities, they are evenly split on the issue.
The demand for better class sizes is good, the idea of compassionate leave is not to the
point they are asking. The problem is when you are bargaining with slippery people like the
Liberal Government that has demonstrated they don't even have respect for the law means
you have to be prepared to fight. This government spent like drunken sailors with their
cost plus contracts that means all construction ends up over budget. They handed out huge
tax breaks to the very rich and now they can't balance the books. They have raised fees
on almost everything while claiming they are keeping taxes down.
If I was a teacher, I wouldn't trust these people either, I would be asking for a lot to make up
for what the government stole, when they illegally cancelled contracts.
Both sides have to start over and come to some sane agreement. As for the strike? Its a
democracy and they have a right to strike. Having rights is not a problem for some, its when
they decide to exercise their rights, well that is different.
This is going to be another nail in the coffin of the BC Liberals.

Yes, I agree, good post.
 
taxslave
+1
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Of course it is peanuts. You have to compare it to what a person with the equivalent education could earn. You need a 4 years bachelor's degree to qualify for a BEd, then you need 1-2 years to finish that. For the same training you could get a Master's in chemistry or computer science and get a nice job making $150k or more, depending where you go. Many people choose education because it is something that they look up to, yet more and more teaching is a no longer a career people feel proud of.

And that is the real source of problems. Education programs have been eviscerated by governments since I was in elementary school. Constantly making cuts and changes has led to the current situation. Making further cuts and changes to entice improvements is just ignorant policy. Spinning propaganda so that teachers are viewed with disdain just makes people steer clear of it.

Many also choose education because they have no other job skills. Many should not really be teachers either.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Can you tell me a single one of those that the government doesn't try to sack every time the contract negotiations open up? That is why they go on strike.

Minus the summer vacation, those are all things that every other career of note that a person of the same education would expect to have. Failing that, they would expect to make more money to make up for it. Here's a few things I have in industry that teachers don't have: automatic raise for inflation every year, automatic raise if performance review is positive, automatic bonus pay if I bring in more profit than 2.5x my salary, choice of when to take my vacations, mileage sharing, subsidies for biking, flexible hours.

You have to ask yourself, are we giving teachers enough so that the people that become teachers are not the worst people in their class? Teaching needs to be a legitimate career choice, otherwise the good people will go somewhere else and we will have the rubbish teaching the next generation. If you want the best, then you have to compete with other industries to get those people. If you are willing to have less than the best teachers, than I guess you just value education less than me.

That would be fine if we could dump the bad teachers but their union protects the worst ones. In BC for the most part we already have the rubish teaching our kids. That is why their union is dead set against testing.
 
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