What has happened to common decency in our society?


JLM
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

You can think what you will JLM, but history speaks loudly to the human response to prohibition. , and mankind's tendency to seek out altered states.

This isn't prohibition Karrie, this is the lowest form of depravity that no human being should be subjected to. If you want to go along with it, that's your perogative, but if you choose not to be part of the solution you are part of the problem. What would you do had that girl been your daughter/sister/friend?
 
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karrie
#32
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

This isn't prohibition Karrie, this is the lowest form of depravity that no human being should be subjected to. If you want to go along with it, that's your perogative, but if you choose not to be part of the solution you are part of the problem. What would you do had that girl been your daughter/sister/friend?

That girl has been my friend, JLM, and you probably know at least one silent person who's been through a similar situation. Only in my friend's situation it was alcohol induced, and happened at a bush party, not a rave. People saw, but no one saw 'force', she wasn't unconscious, but she also wasn't saying yes. Everyone who saw was drunk, no one could say 'she said yes' no one could say 'she said no'. They could attest to having seen sex happen but the docs and cops already knew sex had happened, so what more was there to say? Coming forward only would have gotten them into trouble with family for having been there in the first place, all for the sake of saying 'I don't know what I saw'. There was no public plea for information, because there was no internet to speak of. There was no desire on her part to spread it through news papers because she knew the limitations of what people had seen.

You spoke of wanting to tighten up laws surrounding drugs, it won't help prevent this type of thing from happening, or make witnesses to drunken deeds suddenly sober and aware of what's happening around them. That doesn't make me part of the problem, it simply makes me aware of the limitations of the law, and the habits of humanity. There's a jadedness that comes from having seen the limitations of 'he said she said' in the law, and having had to accept it.
 
JLM
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

That girl has been my friend, JLM, and you probably know at least one silent person who's been through a similar situation. Only in my friend's situation it was alcohol induced, and happened at a bush party, not a rave. People saw, but no one saw 'force', she wasn't unconscious, but she also wasn't saying yes. Everyone who saw was drunk, no one could say 'she said yes' no one could say 'she said no'. They could attest to having seen sex happen but the docs and cops already knew sex had happened, so what more was there to say? Coming forward only would have gotten them into trouble with family for having been there in the first place, all for the sake of saying 'I don't know what I saw'. There was no public plea for information, because there was no internet to speak of. There was no desire on her part to spread it through news papers because she knew the limitations of what people had seen.
You spoke of wanting to tighten up laws surrounding drugs, it won't help prevent this type of thing from happening, or make witnesses to drunken deeds suddenly sober and aware of what's happening around them. That doesn't make me part of the problem, it simply makes me aware of the limitations of the law, and the habits of humanity. There's a jadedness that comes from having seen the limitations of 'he said she said' in the law, and having had to accept it.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
I'm not sure that it's realistic to put a stop to this sh*t, but I think we should definitely be moving in that direction, would you agree and if so how would you propose is the best way to go about it?
 
karrie
+3
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I'm not sure that it's realistic to put a stop to this sh*t, but I think we should definitely be moving in that direction, would you agree and if so how would you propose is the best way to go about it?

Teaching people appropriate settings and behaviours when indulging in mind altering substances is step one. Like I said, show this article to the girls in your life, hell show them this conversation, so they know that certain situations can turn bad in the blink of an eye, and in a mass of drunken/stoned people, you can't count on the sober ones being by your side when **** happens. What you can count on is that fact that altered people don't make credible or knowledgable witnesses. The buddy system... one sober person to one altered person, is necessary when out drinking or partaking of drugs. One sober driver can't watch everyone when her four girlfriends go off the deep end and disappear to opposite corners of a party or club.

And no, none of that is saying the women involved are responsible for what happened to them. Rape is not the only catastrophy that can occur when someone gets too drunk/stoned. We had more than one bush party growing up where someone wandered off to the fringes of the party to toss their cookies and ended up passed out and 'lost', and decided to drive themselves home, or ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning. A buddy to watch your back is a must especially when 'learning to handle' your altered state.

People will always get high, get drunk. The US is learning the ramifications of trying to obliterate the drugs. All it does is drive things deeper underground, where people get even more reckless, and have even less protection from police and the law.
 
JLM
#35
I got to thinking while taking my walk this morning that if there is a "silver lining" to this fiasco, that poor girl now knows who her "friends" are, which could be a huge benefit for the future.
 
karrie
+1
#36
Being a victim can cloud who your true friends are more than anything else in life. Drama addicted personalities are on those sorts of instances like flies on cattle.
 
Elder
#37
Do you think being raised watching gory violent slasher movies from birth has anything to do with it? Or hearing the F word everywhere from mouths as young as a toddler? They are immune to the realities of life. Very scary. Glad I will not be here when these sociopaths are running the country.
 
JLM
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by ElderView Post

Do you think being raised watching gory violent slasher movies from birth has anything to do with it? Or hearing the F word everywhere from mouths as young as a toddler? They are immune to the realities of life. Very scary. Glad I will not be here when these sociopaths are running the country.

Of course it does, when something is happening all the time, that means it's being condoned! Not rocket science!
 
talloola
#39
Am I remembering this situation properly? Wasn't this girl given date rape substance. Could that have
happened before she ever went to 'that' area?

What is a girls condition after having her drink laced with that crap. What do women in that
condition do, how do they act, and if she was given that substance, is she still responsible for
what happened, as it isn't the same as willingly taking drugs and/or alchohol, then becoming
involved this way.
 
Ariadne
#40
Wasn't there a credibility problem ... like ... wasn't she out and about having fun with one of the gang rapers shortly after this happened, like later that night?
 
damngrumpy
#41
The society has been going along as crooked as hell for a long time its just that some are
getting caught and others are noticing the lack of it. There is business courses for the
administrators and board members stressing the virtues of morals and ethics, what does
that tell you?
We have a core of decency its just that people want to reward it instead of just respecting it.
Funny we used to acknowledge and respect those who came forward now they are revered
and worshipped as hero's because it is uncommon.
Morals and decency run parallel to respect and they are I admit in short supply. We need to
sit down with young people and instill those virtues, after talking with them about it we must
take the next step and actually become an honest role model. We must teach them its not
alright to cheat of taxes, and down to the little things like not parking in a handicapped spot.
When I was a kid, we assembled out in front of the school each morning, we learned how to
send the flag up the pole properly without letting the flag touch the ground and we sang the
national anthem. We also said the Lords Prayer, not that it was important to me however I
respected those who were dedicated to it even at a young age.
Its the little things that we have lost and those are the threads of national fabric we must get
back. Losing ethics, morals and decency is like slowly losing the language, as these are the
rules of educate that influence the role of our customs and the way we non verbally communicate
with each other.
 
JLM
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

The society has been going along as crooked as hell for a long time its just that some are
getting caught and others are noticing the lack of it. There is business courses for the
administrators and board members stressing the virtues of morals and ethics, what does
that tell you?

Well written post DG. I guess I'm old fashioned too, but things like respecting your elders and speaking when spoken to were things instilled in us as kids and they were good values. Of course it can be argued today that not all elders act in a way to be respected. There was a time when how you played the game was important, now winning regardless of how you play the game is important.........all too often now "the game" being amassing monetary wealth. It's sad when not being a "ratfink" trumps the danger to someones life. What's even more sad is "peer pressure" is trumping good parental guidance and example setting.
 
Cliffy
#43
Well, JLM, our parents generation was saying similar stuff about us. It is a generational thing. There is a reason Buckminster Fuller said he was never a radical in his youth for fear he would become a conservative in his old age. It seems to be what happens to us as we get older. The whole world is in an upheaval. The youth see no real future for themselves. Industrial greed, environmental degradation, dwindling wildlife, fewer and lower paying jobs, housing so high, they don't see themselves ever owning one. The future looks hopeless and they are left with "Party til ya puke" and "we're here for a good time, not a long time" mentality.

They have no respect for those who have left the world in this mess. They have no respect for the institutions that were once the pillars of our society: religion, politics, law and law enforcement. Can't blame them when all these institutions and the people who run them are completely corrupt. I talk to the kids, but most of all, I listen to them. Many are at a loss, directionless, hopeless. When it comes down to it, they just don't want to shovel our sh!t pile.
 
JLM
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Well, JLM, our parents generation was saying similar stuff about us. It is a generational thing. There is a reason Buckminster Fuller said he was never a radical in his youth for fear he would become a conservative in his old age. It seems to be what happens to us as we get older. The whole world is in an upheaval. The youth see no real future for themselves. Industrial greed, environmental degradation, dwindling wildlife, fewer and lower paying jobs, housing so high, they don't see themselves ever owning one. The future looks hopeless and they are left with "Party til ya puke" and "we're here for a good time, not a long time" mentality.

They have no respect for those who have left the world in this mess. They have no respect for the institutions that were once the pillars of our society: religion, politics, law and law enforcement. Can't blame them when all these institutions and the people who run them are completely corrupt. I talk to the kids, but most of all, I listen to them. Many are at a loss, directionless, hopeless. When it comes down to it, they just don't want to shovel our sh!t pile.

In some ways Cliff, the world is in a mess in other ways there are more opportunities for the young today than ever before. There are many more career choices open to youth, more educational facilities, more scholarships and other sources of financing an education. Every generation has its problems it's just that they are diffrent problems. Our parents had wars and a depression to contend with, by those standards the world is fairly prosperous and peaceful today.
 
Cliffy
+1
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

In some ways Cliff, the world is in a mess in other ways there are more opportunities for the young today than ever before. There are many more career choices open to youth, more educational facilities, more scholarships and other sources of financing an education. Every generation has its problems it's just that they are diffrent problems. Our parents had wars and a depression to contend with, by those standards the world is fairly prosperous and peaceful today.

True, and there are those who can fit in and prosper. But there are many who think our value systems are completely screwy and don't want to have anything to do with them. The whole mindless consumerism and materialistic "one up on the Jones" just doesn't make sense. What we are seeing is a generation in search of meaning in their lives and what we have to offer leaves them cold.
 
talloola
+1
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Well, JLM, our parents generation was saying similar stuff about us. It is a generational thing. There is a reason Buckminster Fuller said he was never a radical in his youth for fear he would become a conservative in his old age. It seems to be what happens to us as we get older. The whole world is in an upheaval. The youth see no real future for themselves. Industrial greed, environmental degradation, dwindling wildlife, fewer and lower paying jobs, housing so high, they don't see themselves ever owning one. The future looks hopeless and they are left with "Party til ya puke" and "we're here for a good time, not a long time" mentality.

They have no respect for those who have left the world in this mess. They have no respect for the institutions that were once the pillars of our society: religion, politics, law and law enforcement. Can't blame them when all these institutions and the people who run them are completely corrupt. I talk to the kids, but most of all, I listen to them. Many are at a loss, directionless, hopeless. When it comes down to it, they just don't want to shovel our sh!t pile.

as a little girl during world war two, I remember many sh* t piles that had to be shovelled because of
war, I remember being poor, I remember my grandad having his job pulled out from under him, without he
being able to go to anyone for assistance, I remember when their were no unions to bring balance into
the work place, I remember wages being so low that both parents had to work, I remember no day care,
and relatives always looked after children when parents worked, I remember only having bare necessities
because there was no money for more, the depression-I remember being on rations during the war and having to go with
my mother to get those ration tickets, and I also remember when I became an adult the situation had
improved ten fold, and people finally had a few bucks to get a decent place to live, and the country
got better and better for many years, so my generation who could get a job easy, save money easy, and
push themselves for a better life, and it felt good, but memories were not good.

Todays young people arent't the first to have to struggle, and won't be the first to have bad memories, but they do seem to whine more than any of us did at the time,
I don't ever remember whining and complaining, nor did my mother, we just dug
down and figured out how to do better.
 
gerryh
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

True, and there are those who can fit in and prosper. But there are many who think our value systems are completely screwy and don't want to have anything to do with them. The whole mindless consumerism and materialistic "one up on the Jones" just doesn't make sense. What we are seeing is a generation in search of meaning in their lives and what we have to offer leaves them cold.


Get outa the bush cliffy, because what you are describing is far from the truth.
 
L Gilbert
#48
I don't know about kids over there in Nakusp or in cities, but around here there are many that see opportunities in changing the "old boys club" standards of the world and don't see that "old boys club" lasting forever. IOW, empires rise and fall regardless of their motives and methods.
 
Cliffy
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

I don't know about kids over there in Nakusp or in cities, but around here there are many that see opportunities in changing the "old boys club" standards of the world and don't see that "old boys club" lasting forever. IOW, empires rise and fall regardless of their motives and methods.

Funny, when I was young we thought the same thing. I wonder where all these new "old boys club" bozos came from. I was hoping the old hippies would be in charge. I always thought that the old hippies were bought out by Trudeau's LIP grants and became Yuppies.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Funny, when I was young we thought the same thing. I wonder where all these new "old boys club" bozos came from. I was hoping the old hippies would be in charge. I always thought that the old hippies were bought out by Trudeau's LIP grants and became Yuppies.

Old hippies are in charge. They simply abandoned their hippish attitudes and adopted the same old crap from their predecessors. I see kids today that do not want to accept the usual crap about profit over people and planet.
 
karrie
+2
#51
yay, yet another thread devolved into just talking about what **** my generation is, and my kids' generation is. And let me guess, if once again I jump in and try to point out that we are as worthwhile as the old folks sitting around bitching and calling us down, I'll get freaked out on for picking on 'my elders' and not showing respect to people ****ting on everyone 'below' them. I hope you guys are actually absorbing what you're doing here.
 
JLM
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

yay, yet another thread devolved into just talking about what **** my generation is, and my kids' generation is. And let me guess, if once again I jump in and try to point out that we are as worthwhile as the old folks sitting around bitching and calling us down, I'll get freaked out on for picking on 'my elders' and not showing respect to people ****ting on everyone 'below' them. I hope you guys are actually absorbing what you're doing here.

It's not so much a matter of "picking" on anyone so much as a matter that on this forum there are people who have lived through one generation, people who have lived through two generations, people who have lived through three generations and the odd one who has possibly lived through four generations. The more generations you have experienced should give you the more ability to judge subjectively.
 
karrie
+2
#53
Well, stuff it. I'm sick of hearing it. It's a sickening thing to be told nonstop. It's the most unwelcoming, disheartening environment to bother subjecting oneself too.

If you guys really think every generation to come after you is so foul, stop and look at the source. And enjoy one another's company in griping about what **** people are. It's well deserved company. So civil of you all. Glad you're better than all those who followed.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

yay, yet another thread devolved into just talking about what **** my generation is, and my kids' generation is. And let me guess, if once again I jump in and try to point out that we are as worthwhile as the old folks sitting around bitching and calling us down, I'll get freaked out on for picking on 'my elders' and not showing respect to people ****ting on everyone 'below' them. I hope you guys are actually absorbing what you're doing here.

I hope so, too. I can't see humanity or the world getting any better until we can the crap about "more is better" and "bigger is better". There's nothing wrong with profit and growth as long as it doesn't screw up people and planet. And I see a lot of kids and other young people that recognize the positive aspects of things and I wholly support them in their effort to change things for the better.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

It's not so much a matter of "picking" on anyone so much as a matter that on this forum there are people who have lived through one generation, people who have lived through two generations, people who have lived through three generations and the odd one who has possibly lived through four generations. The more generations you have experienced should give you the more ability to judge subjectively.

It usually does allow them to judge subjectively, and that is part of the problem. As they get older they lose ideals and gain concern over personal issues, such as padding their pockets for their retirement. Sort of like withdrawing from actively seeking a better situation for themselves and the planet they live on. Just make as much dough as they can and clam up.
It's no freakin wonder kids lose respect for older generations.

Complacency about the status quo (consumerism, crony capitalism, etc.) sucks bigtime.
 
JLM
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Well, stuff it. I'm sick of hearing it. It's a sickening thing to be told nonstop. It's the most unwelcoming, disheartening environment to bother subjecting oneself too.

If you guys really think every generation to come after you is so foul, stop and look at the source. And enjoy one another's company in griping about what **** people are. It's well deserved company. So civil of you all. Glad you're better than all those who followed.

Who said that?
 
talloola
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

yay, yet another thread devolved into just talking about what **** my generation is, and my kids' generation is. And let me guess, if once again I jump in and try to point out that we are as worthwhile as the old folks sitting around bitching and calling us down, I'll get freaked out on for picking on 'my elders' and not showing respect to people ****ting on everyone 'below' them. I hope you guys are actually absorbing what you're doing here.

my post was partly because i'm sick of being told that people in and around my generation have ruined
everything for those who came after, just reminding them that there were young people in the world long before them,
and I was one of them, and just letting them know that things weren't very good when I was a kid,
so i'm also sick and tired of being picked on as having been selfish and created what the young
people have today.

the world seems to continuously change and some generations grow up into good times, some don't,
thats just the way it is, don't blame previous generations, as I have never blamed the previous
generation for how my child hood was, it wasn't their fault, they had to live with how the
world was then, and on it goes.
 
JLM
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

my post was partly because i'm sick of being told that people in and around my generation have ruined
everything for those who came after, just reminding them that there were young people in the world long before them,
and I was one of them, and just letting them know that things weren't very good when I was a kid,
so i'm also sick and tired of being picked on as having been selfish and created what the young
people have today.

the world seems to continuously change and some generations grow up into good times, some don't,
thats just the way it is, don't blame previous generations, as I have never blamed the previous
generation for how my child hood was, it wasn't their fault, they had to live with how the
world was then, and on it goes.

Right on, Talloola. This thread was inspired by a single event in Maple Ridge that is NOT unique today. Last year a 16 year old girl was stabbed to death at a party in West Kelowna by another 16 year old girl, a similar event occurred in Vernon recently although not deadly- these things were not typical when you and I were growing up. You are quite right in that the world is constantly changing but this particular aspect of it is not for the better. Of course there are people who will say that this sort of thing has always gone on- NOT SO in the numbers we hear of today!
 
karrie
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Who said that?

Really? I have to read the thread for you?
Start with elder's post.

Now, let me reiterate...you guys are all working off the assumption that there were coherent witnesses who saw something of use in court.....why is that?
 
JLM
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Really? I have to read the thread for you?
Start with elder's post.

Now, let me reiterate...you guys are all working off the assumption that there were coherent witnesses who saw something of use in court.....why is that?

So of all those witnesses you are sure NOT ONE was coherent? Yet some were coherent enough to get it into Facebook! Personally I thing there were TWO acts lacking in common decency here, the event itself and everyone clamming up. I can be drunk as a skunk and still know what I saw, so all I'm saying is submit the evidence and let the cops and courts decide if it's valid.
 
taxslave
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

So of all those witnesses you are sure NOT ONE was coherent? Yet some were coherent enough to get it into Facebook! Personally I thing there were TWO acts lacking in common decency here, the event itself and everyone clamming up. I can be drunk as a skunk and still know what I saw, so all I'm saying is submit the evidence and let the cops and courts decide if it's valid.

I think that is what happened, The prosecutor decided that non of the witnesses they had were in good enough shape to be reliable on the stand so the likelyhood of conviction is not great enough to take the time and money for a trial unless one of the boys confesses
 

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