Marines and Honour


ironsides
#241
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post


I have no problem with people condemning the Taliban for their actions. Their strict code of behavior allows many acts which would be accurately judged as cruel, barbaric and medieval. Your post certainly highlights some good examples and I have no problem condemning them. How did you the warped perception that I support the Taliban? Would you please quote a single post where I expressed support for the Taliban? Otherwise admit you are making stuff up about me.
You still seem to have missed my points about the congressman.
Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan are three different countries. The Taliban never desecrated those bodies in the examples the congressman cited. The congressman seems to have trouble telling one group of people from another and one war from another, when he claims that US marines can desecrate people in Afghanistan, because it was done to Americans in Iraq and Somalia. The congressman is both ignorant and wrong.

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I believe I answered that question "No". Those Marines did not think about Somalia and Iraq when they desecrated the bodies, and the Taliban did not think it was so bad either. Congressman West is up for re-election this year.


"War ain’t Sunday school. In WWII General George Patton said in a motivational speech to troops about how they would treat the German enemy, “... we’re going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks ...”
Wow, that’s not very nice language, and in today’s wussified world Patton would probably lose a star, but war was nasty then and it is nasty now."

Marine-Taliban outrage begs for some prespective | The Citizen (external - login to view)

[/FONT]
 
Cannuck
#242
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Then you have no idea of what you are talking about when it comes to Battle Stress

I suggest you not embarrass yourself by getting into a discussion with me about the effects of stress. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about when when you say I have no idea what I am talking about.
 
captain morgan
+1
#243
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Any why is that some people on here feel it necessary to continually attack certain other people, who for the most part, have never attacked anybody on here, just because they disagree with what that person's views are. It seems to me that these constant and unrelenting attacks say more about the character, or the lack there of, of the attackers. I have yet to read any comment by the person being attacked that backs up the assertions of the attackers. I find this line of comment really distasteful and ignorant.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

There is a whole cadre of people who are continually attacking, not just eao, but a few others. There is not justification for such behaviour in my opinion. If you have issue with what is said, counter it. Personal attacks are frowned on on this forum.

Those are particularly interesting comments in light that perception is especially subjective in nature. One of the areas in which this style of aggressive behaviour is exceedingly commonplace are in those threads that deal with the environment.

It would seem that there is also a cadre of people that attack, defame and otherwise abuse individuals that do not maintain a parallel philosophy as the aggressors.

Interesting, non?
 
Cliffy
#244
I remember when there was a big stink in Canada when hazing was exposed in the military where soldiers were defecating on new recruits. People were really getting their balls in a knot. I said, "what the heck do you expect. We are training them to kill people. You want them to do it in a civilized manor? Don't be silly."
 
earth_as_one
#245
My preference is that people follow forum rules and that forum moderators strictly, fairly and objectively enforce the rules... But its not a perfect world and forum moderators can't be everywhere all the time.

Some people here need to grow up.
 
Goober
#246
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

My preference is that people follow forum rules and that forum moderators strictly, fairly and objectively enforce the rules... But its not a perfect world and forum moderators can't be everywhere all the time.

Some people here need to grow up.

So could you explain what a Non Violent Pacifist is?
 
captain morgan
+3
#247
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Some people here need to grow up.

You may wish to keep that sentiment at the forefront of your thoughts when you cast aspersions about entire cultures.
 
oleoleolanda
+1
#248
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Link please? I am unaware of any videos of the Taliban pissing on some dead marines. I'm sure we would have heard about it. I never did, but maybe I missed something.
My understanding is that the Taliban are religious zealous who follow a strict code of behavior or face eternal damnation. The Taliban can cut off people's heads and arms as punishments for crimes but I don't think they can piss on human remains or commit other degrading acts against a dead body, just like they can't charge interest on a loan. If they sin, they go straight to hell upon death, without any virgins.
You are right that Zionists are everywhere, but you are wrong that they are the majority. Most people don't care and are neither Jewish nor Christian. Most of the world is unaware of Christian and Jewish religious prophecies which claim that all the homes, property, bank accounts, silverware, family portraits, beds, clothing... in this region were given to Jews by God. Some people (non-Zionists like myself) believe that people living in this area own their homes, property, bank accounts, .... regardless of what other believe regarding God's intent. The majority of the world doesn't believe in religious based entitlement and view it as being just as repugnant as race based entitlement (racism) or sex based entitlement (sexism). But you are right, that zealous people who believe that Jews have a God given right to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews and a...

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Earthasone, Zionism actually began as a secular movement in the 19th, an answer solving the struggles of Jews being persecuted through the ages. The belief was that perhaps Jews having their own nation would be the only way for them to escape anti-Semitism. There was talk of trying to find somewhere in the world, including in South America. Later, the historical connection to the land of Israel became one of the factors, as well as the fact that there were Arab Jews there. And then came the Nazis. Children were put in gas chambers, whole families. The sadism and atrocities committed against Jewish Europeans seemed to validate the need for a safe haven for Jewish people. And that's why Israel accepts Jewish people from all over the world. In my more idealistic and naive days, I remember arguing that "never again" was true. The world had learned. But then I started learning about anti-Semitism in the Arab world and seeing it in Canada and Europe, the US... It could happen again.

There are many different beliefs within Zionism, including religious, but the one thing they have in common is the belief that Israel today as a nation has the right to exist. On the other hand, anti-Zionsim is ALL actually based on religious and anti-Semitic beliefs. And I don't mean criticism of Israeli policies and actions as anti-Zionism. I mean the belief that Israel has no right to exist, which is really why the war goes on and on and on.

Have you looked into the religious and cultural and historical basis of anti-Semitism and Israel in the Arab world, including among Palestinians and why it is so embedded in the cultures? Have you looked into why the existance of Israel is considered to be such an offense and crime in the Arab world? Have you looked into how non-Arabs are treated? Which Arab country allows for immigrant workers to gain citizenship? If religious zealots outrage you, if racism and bigotry outrage you, you should be aware that there's an awful lot of projection that goes on by the racists onto Israel, accusing it of the very things which are behind their refusal to accept Israel.

I'm writing as someone who after 9/11 turned to the Internet in search of answers and in a very confused and naive state, fell for a whole lot of stuff out there and was shocked to discover how horrible Israel was and I became a passionate pro-Palestinian. And then I learned some more. There's a lot of propaganda out there. If you do hold anti-racism and pro-democracy and human rights values, then you owe it to yourself to research and learn more of the history and what's going on.

It feels really crappy when you are someone who believes in these values to discover you've been duped and played by propaganda of people who do not share them and in fact are against them. And I speak from experience.
 
Spade
#249
Searching for answers on the internet is sorting through propaganda. Too few answers; too much propaganda.
 
earth_as_one
+1
#250
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

You may wish to keep that sentiment at the forefront of your thoughts when you cast aspersions about entire cultures.

I judge people by their actions, not their religion or culture. I'm certain I've never said a derogatory word against any religion or group and if you believe otherwise, you'll have to quote me. Which post are you referring to?

I find it highly selective that you accuse me of this, yet ignore the many people on this forum who constantly "cast aspersions" against Muslims and Arabs. Have you made similar accusations against these people?

Quote: Originally Posted by oleoleolandaView Post

Earthasone, Zionism actually began as a secular movement in the 19th, an answer solving the struggles of Jews being persecuted through the ages. The belief was that perhaps Jews having their own nation would be the only way for them to escape anti-Semitism. There was talk of trying to find somewhere in the world, including in South America. Later, the historical connection to the land of Israel became one of the factors, as well as the fact that there were Arab Jews there. And then came the Nazis. Children were put in gas chambers, whole families. The sadism and atrocities committed against Jewish Europeans seemed to validate the need for a safe haven for Jewish people. And that's why Israel accepts Jewish people from all over the world. In my more idealistic and naive days, I remember arguing that "never again" was true. The world had learned. But then I started learning about anti-Semitism in the Arab world and seeing it in Canada and Europe, the US... It could happen again.
There are many different beliefs within Zionism, including religious, but the one thing they have in common is the belief that Israel today as a nation has the right to exist. On the other hand, anti-Zionsim is ALL actually based on religious and anti-Semitic beliefs. And I don't mean criticism of Israeli policies and actions as anti-Zionism. I mean the belief that Israel has no right to exist, which is really why the war goes on and on and on.
Have you looked into the...

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Thank you for writing your sincere opinion in a nice way that wasn't mean or harassing. That doesn't mean I agree with you, but I certainly do appreciate your civilized tone. Perhaps other people here on this forum will take note of how to express their opinion in a non-forum rule violating way. I found some of your statements to be mildly condescending, implying that you know more about this conflict than I do and if I learned more, I'd come to the same conclusions as you. You shouldn't make such assumptions about people until you know them better.

I am well aware that Jews have been persecuted for centuries and that the persecution eventually led to the horrors of Nazi Europe. I am also aware that Jews historically were treated better by Muslims than so-called Christians... in general. In general, Jews persecuted by Christians have found relatively safe haven in Muslim majority countries... up until the creation of the Zionist State of Israel. Until then, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together more or less peacefully in the Palestine region. Muslims in general didn't treat Jews worse than other religious groups until Zionist begane cleansing Palestine of non-Jewish Palestinians.

I am well aware of Zionism's roots. I am also well aware that Zionists use the past suffering of Jews to justify their ongoing cleansing of Palestine of non-Jews. IMO, suffering atrocities doesn't give anyone the right to commit atrocities. Do you also believe that God gave Jews Palestinian homes, furniture, bank accounts and land? Seriously, because that where Zionism has led. Since the Zionists State of Israel's creation, hundreds of thousands of people lost their homes, property, bank accounts.... because they weren't Jewish. Jewish immigrants to Israel were awarded the former homes of non-Jewish Palestnians, because they were Jewish. If the people who lost their homes were Jewish in the same situation, they'd have been able to keep their homes, property, bank accounts... Today Israel has seized most of the West Bank and created Jewish only colonies on conquered land supposedly reserved for a future Palestinan state, in violation of international laws and treaties. Also non-Jews living in areas controlled by the Zionist State of Israel live under a constant fear that the authorities will evict them from their homes and toss them onto the street, because they aren't Jewish. Palestinians also risk loosing their homes and property if they travel. When they return home, they could find that the Zionist State of Israel has declared their homes abandonned and awarded it to a Jewish family. If they are lucky, they might be able to pick up their belongings off the street. I believe people not have to live in fear that the government will seize their home because they aren't the right religion. Which religion that is, makes no difference to me as I'm agnostic and see all religions similarly. I don't like or dislike one religion more than the other. They are all belief systems and I don't have a belief system.

I'm not against the idea of Zionism. I'm against the injustices that Zionists committed against the people who had the misfortune of living in a region that Zionists believe God gave to Jews. I am against discrimination and ethnic cleansing.

I am not anti-Semtiic or anti-Israeli. I support the right of all civilians to live in peace regardless of race or religion. Zionists tend to consider only Jews and Israelis and seem to have little problems with turning millions of people who aren't Jewish into homeless and nationless refugees.

I believe in separation of church and state which is why I don't think that nations with state religions like Israel and Iran are a good idea. Both countries would have a lot less problems if they were secular and treated everyone the same way, regardless of their religion... like Canada does. As soon as a nation adopts an official state religion, it creates two classes of people. People who observe the state religion will always have more rights and freedoms than the religious minorities.

I hope this clarifies my opinion regarding this conflict. Hopefully other people here will notice that you can respectfully disagree with someone without being insulting or demeaning.

Back on topic.... I was wondering if anyone here who claims that pissing on the bodies of dead Taliban insurgents isn't that offensive, would agree that if the Taliban pissed on the bodies of dead marines, that this act would also be not that offensive? IMO, we should all respect other people's believe systems. Desecrating human remains is offensive to some people and that's good enough for me.

FYI: I plan to donate my body upon my death. Organ recipients get first dibs. After that, my body will be offered to Body World for educational, artistic, or research related plastination:

Bodyworlds (external - login to view)

I believe that when we die, who we are ceases to exist, leaving behind an empty shell.
 
ironsides
+3
#251
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I judge people by their actions, not their religion or culture. I'm certain I've never said a derogatory word against any religion or group and if you believe otherwise, you'll have to quote me. Which post are you referring to?
I find it highly selective that you accuse me of this, yet ignore the many people on this forum who constantly "cast aspersions" against Muslims and Arabs. Have you made similar accusations against these people?
Thank you for writing your sincere opinion in a nice way that wasn't mean or harassing. That doesn't mean I agree with you, but I certainly do appreciate your civilized tone. Perhaps other people here on this forum will take note of how to express their opinion in a non-forum rule violating way. I found some of your statements to be mildly condescending, implying that you know more about this conflict than I do and if I learned more, I'd come to the same conclusions as you. You shouldn't make such assumptions about people until you know them better.
I am well aware that Jews have been persecuted for centuries and that the persecution eventually led to the horrors of Nazi Europe. I am also aware that Jews historically were treated better by Muslims than so-called Christians... in general. In general, Jews persecuted by Christians have found relatively safe haven in Muslim majority countries... up until the creation of the Zionist State of Israel. Until then, Jews, Christians and...

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If I saw Taliban desecrating Marines bodies like that I would have killed them on the spot, would that be a big deal No. They would be killed because they were Taliban and I would have just shot them for that reason alone. As for disrespecting their belief system, that would be wrapping their bodies in pig skins, not urinating on them. (wouldn't do that either)
 
oleoleolanda
+1
#252
Earth_as_one

“Thankyou for writing your sincere opinion in a nice way that wasn't mean orharassing. That doesn't mean I agree with you, but I certainly do appreciateyour civilized tone. Perhaps other people here on this forum will take note ofhow to express their opinion in a non-forum rule violating way. I found some ofyour statements to be mildly condescending, implying that you know more aboutthis conflict than I do and if I learned more, I'd come to the same conclusionsas you. You shouldn't make such assumptions about people until you know thembetter."

Thereason for that assumption is that I see a conflict between your values ofanti-racism, democracy, human rights, etc. and the arguments you make. Thereare people who don’t really cherish those values and use them superficially andconveniently but I don’t get that feeling from you. I believe they’reauthentic.

“I amwell aware that Jews have been persecuted for centuries and that thepersecution eventually led to the horrors of Nazi Europe. I am also aware thatJews historically were treated better by Muslims than so-called Christians...in general. In general, Jews persecuted by Christians have found relativelysafe haven in Muslim majority countries... up until the creation of the ZionistState of Israel.”

You say “in general” they were treated better. So you areaware of there aware of pogroms against Jews under Muslim rule and of their dhimmasystem? Under Muslim rule Jews paid extra taxes that bought them some rightsand protection—but they were always inferior, always subject to be deniedwithout warning.

Are you aware dhimmitude is one of the reasons Arabs,including Muslim Palestinians (for there are and always have been Christian andJewish Palestinians as well), were always so opposed to the creation of Israeland to this day remain opposed to its existence? Under dhimmitude land that hasbeen ruled by Muslims must always be ruled by them and the inferior people ofthe book, including the Jews, are in violation of this, rebelling against whatthey perceive is the natural power structure: Muslims rule over Jews. There’sremarkable racism and social injustice and supremacist views behind dhimmitude.Arguing that the persecution of Jews under Muslim rule only began after thecreation of Israel is ignoring the fact that the persecution began when theJews got uppity and violated their inferior status, Earth. Does that argument stand up to your anti-racism,humanitarian views? Also justifying collective punishment of Jews across theArab world since the creation of Israel by blaming Israel is racist in itself.Surely you don’t believe that Jews in Egypt or Iraq were justifiably persecutedand expelled?

And I don’t understand if you know that Zionism began and isprimarily a secular movement why you argue that Israel’s foundation isreligious zealotry and that its war with Palestinians is based on religiouszealotry.

Sorry, I have to run now but I will try to respond to therest of your post in the next couple ofday.
 
earth_as_one
#253
OK I will follow you off topic...

You focus on only Islamic intolerance. I am aware of this too, but I can find equally unreasonable, dumb, mean spirited, racist, intolerant statements in the religious texts of Christians, Jews and Muslims. Yet, reasonable tolerant people are the majority in all three religions. Only a minority of extremists use religious texts to justify their fear and hate. You'll find these extremists in all religions. You seem focused only on Muslim extremists, yet you won't even comment on Palestinian suffering as a result of Jewish extremists, let alone condemn them.

If I understand you, you are against Muslims reclaiming land they used to occupy, but you are for Jews reclaiming land they used to occupy, even though that was some 2000 years ago. Seems to me you favor Judaism over Islam, rather than being neutral.

Everywhere there is a religious majority, there is a religious minority. Without exception, all religious majorities have harassed and discriminated against the minorities. Christians and Muslims harassed Jews for centuries and now that the Jews have the upper hand in the Zionist state of Israel, they've proven that they are just as capable of discrimination and intolerance as anyone else. That's a statement about humanity, not Judaism.

I am awaer that non-Muslims sometimes were required to pay extra taxes in Muslim countries. Typically the same rules applied to all non-Muslims, rather than Jews specifically. Often the point of this "extra" tax, was to make up the difference resulting from the "charitable" donations Muslim are required to make to their local Mosque to support social projects which benefit the entire community including religious minorities.. In many Muslim countries, Jews and Christians could avoid extra taxes by paying the same amount to their local synagogue or church as Muslims donate to their mosque. The purpose of these taxes typically was to raise money for social welfare projects like public schools and and hospitals. Since non-Muslims also benefited from hospitals and other social projects funded by Muslim charity, paying your share would be fair. I'm not saying Muslims were always fair to religious minorities, because they weren't... but you seem to believe these additional taxes were always unfair. Sometimes they were fair and sometimes they weren't. I can give examples if you like. I suggest you read up about how Jews were by the Ottomans.
History of the Jews in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (external - login to view)

You seem to have a twisted view of the historical relationship between Muslims and Jews. You seem to blame Muslims for Christian acts of anti-semitism. For example, 'Pogram" is a Russian word. That's a big clue about where the term originates. Yet you apply it to Muslim discrimination and harassment of Jews, when in fact it refers to European harassment of Jews... specifically how Jews were treated in Czarist Russia. I'm aware Jews have been harassed by Muslims, but unlike "Christians", Muslims never rounded up Jews for extermination.

Meanwhile you seem oblivious to the daily harassment suffered by most religious minorities at the hands of Zionists in Israel. Most religious minorities who live in areas controlled by the Zionist State of Israel suffer constant discrimination and harassment, often violently with lethal consequences. Israeli settlers and soldiers can literally get away with murdering non-Jews. I can literally cite thousands of examples of assault and violence directed at the Zionist State of Israel's religious minorities which occur on a daily basis.

Here are just two examples:
21 Nov. '11: Video: Soldiers let settlers assault Palestinian demonstrators | B'Tselem (external - login to view)
Jalud: Another Day, Another Pogrom « Tikun Olam- (external - login to view)

Here are recent weekly reports describing the daily suffer of Palestinians:
December 30, 2011 PCHR Weekly Report: One Palestinian killed, 11 wounded by Israeli forces this week - International Middle East Media Center (external - login to view)
January 06, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: Fighter killed, 2 civilians wounded, 32 abducted by Israeli troops this week - International Middle East Media Center (external - login to view)
January 13, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: 4 civilians wounded, 29 abducted by Israeli forces this week - International Middle East Media Center (external - login to view)

I can predict your response. You will not write about or acknowledge Palestinian suffering. Instead you will reference historical harassment and suffering of Jews like its happening right now, or you will find a current minor incident, proving anti-semticism is alive and well... I am aware of that too. But for every recent example you give of Jews being on the receiving end of harassment and discrimination, I can give a thousand recent examples of Jewish Zionists harassing and discriminating against non-Jews.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jan 19th, 2012 at 02:51 AM..
 
Goober
#254
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

OK I will follow you off topic...

.

As you are willing to go off topic. Perhaps a reply or a clarification on you statement regarding your a Non violent pacifist?
 
oleoleolanda
+2
#255
[QUOTE=earth_as_one;1535361]OK I will follow you off topic...

Quote:


You focus on only Islamic intolerance. I am aware of this too, but I can
find equally unreasonable, dumb, mean spirited, racist, intolerant statements
in the religious texts of Christians, Jews and Muslims. Yet, reasonable
tolerant people are the majority in all three religions. Only a minority of
extremists use religious texts to justify their fear and hate. You'll find
these extremists in all religions. You seem focused only on Muslim extremists,
yet you won't even comment on Palestinian suffering as a result of Jewish
extremists, let alone condemn them.


I'm not doing the go through the Koran or Bible looking for comparisons. I'm speaking of actual practice and not just historical but in the present. And I'm really not speaking of Muslims. I am speaking primarily of Arab Muslims, historically and today.

Here's a link for you. You can check out and confirm what it states with other sources.

Point of no return: Massacres of Jews by Muslims before 1948 (external - login to view)


But if you want to look at religions, I'm afraid there is a slight difference between Islam among Arabs in Arab countries, and Pakistan and Iran, in particular, than Christianity and Judaism. That difference is that Islam has never fully experienced a reformation, the pains of modernization that the other major religions have. Do you think Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt, or even the United Arab Emirates. There is also a strong historical and cultural supremacism among Arabs. And it isn't just Jews who are persecuted. It's all minorities. Including, in Saudi Arabi, for example, Shia Muslims. You say you are for separation of church and state and the lack of this is one of the reasons Zionism outrages you. But separation of religion and state exists to a very large degree in Israel. There is NO separation between religion and state in Arab countries. There are no freedoms. There are no human rights. Women have no rights.

Israel has Muslim citizens, who have the same rights as Jewish citizens. It has refuseniks and it has media that debates openly and freely. It is a democracy. It's one that has a unique mandate--to remain a safe haven for all the world's Jews should they be in need of a safe haven. So it has safety measures to ensure that, which might strike us as anti-democratic in a country like Canada, but then again, the very idea or reservations for aboriginal peoples does seem a bit anti-democratic as well. And hey, in Quebec, there's the "language police", now what's that?! No democracy is ideal, and reality is always complex, with histories and issues that have to be specifically addressed rather than with generalized idealisms about what life should be like. Democracies are, in short, like your average human being. Messed up, with problems, but overall, trying to do good and grow, evolve.

Egypt is just beginning its journey--we hope. But if your lack of concern for the human beings in these countries, for the suffering they experience, the brutal and backward and extreme oppression is shocking to me. Don't you think Shia in Saudi Arabia or Gaza, for that matter, matter? Don't you care about the oppression and barbaric suffering of Palestinians under the rule of Hamas or the Palestinian Authority, whose human rights record are horrific?

Do you care about Palestinian suffering or do you care about Zionist "wrongs?" If you cared about Palestinian suffering, then we can talk because I care about the suffering of Palestinian refugees who will not be granted human rights by their own people, citizenship, who are forced to this day, after generations to still live in refugee camps. As if they were less than other Palestinians simply because their grandparents lived in Israel once. Doen't that outrage you?


Quote:

If I understand you, you are against Muslims reclaiming land they used to
occupy, but you are for Jews reclaiming land they used to occupy, even though
that was some 2000 years ago. Seems to me you favor Judaism over Islam, rather
than being neutral.

First of all, Jewish people lived in the land we now know as Palestine and Israel continuously. I know someone who has Jewish relatives who had lived in the West Bank for generations and generations and had to leave their homes. The difference is their children and great grand children are full Israeli citizens, not refugees. But there were Jewish refugees as well. There are also Christians and some other minorities. I am not someone who believes that land belongs to anyone based on their religion. I reject that particular Islamic concept. I also reject that argument among some Israelis. Why do you argue from a religious perspective if you believe in secular states and laws? Israelis are Muslim as well, even if they are a minority.

Quote:

Everywhere there is a religious majority, there is a religious minority.
Without exception, all religious majorities have harassed and discriminated
against the minorities. Christians and Muslims harassed Jews for centuries and
now that the Jews have the upper hand in the Zionist state of Israel, they've
proven that they are just as capable of discrimination and intolerance as anyone
else. That's a statement about humanity, not Judaism.

This is just a generalist argument that is completely disconnected with the specifics.

Quote:


am awaer that non-Muslims sometimes were required to pay extra taxes in
Muslim countries. Typically the same rules applied to all non-Muslims, rather
than Jews specifically. Often the point of this "extra" tax, was to make up the
difference resulting from the "charitable" donations Muslim are required to make
to their local Mosque to support social projects which benefit the entire
community including religious minorities.. In many Muslim countries, Jews and
Christians could avoid extra taxes by paying the same amount to their local
synagogue or church as Muslims donate to their mosque. The purpose of these
taxes typically was to raise money for social welfare projects like public
schools and and hospitals. Since non-Muslims also benefited from hospitals and
other social projects funded by Muslim charity, paying your share would be fair.
I'm not saying Muslims were always fair to religious minorities, because they
weren't... but you seem to believe these additional taxes were always unfair.
Sometimes they were fair and sometimes they weren't. I can give examples if you
like. I suggest you read up about how Jews were by the Ottomans.


History of the Jews in Turkey - Wikipedia, the
free encyclopedia
(external - login to view)

Some slave masters were nice to their slaves and some were not too. It was up to the masters. The slaves were at their mercy. I was under the impression you believe in human rights and freedoms, not in benevolent masters.


Quote:

You seem to have a twisted view of the historical relationship between Muslims
and Jews. You seem to blame Muslims for Christian acts of anti-semitism. For
example, 'Pogram" is a Russian word. That's a big clue about where the term
originates. Yet you apply it to Muslim discrimination and harassment of Jews,
when in fact it refers to European harassment of Jews... specifically how Jews
were treated in Czarist Russia. I'm aware Jews have been harassed by Muslims,
but unlike "Christians", Muslims never rounded up Jews for extermination.

Earth_as_one! That is the cheapest debating trick I've seen in a long time!!! LOL. Come on! You turned the historical orgins of a word I used into a false argument. I wrote to you about specific Islamic laws and beliefs. Had nothing to do with Christians. Why do you have this profound idealization of Muslims, btw? You have them on a pedastal, it seems, as if they can do no wrong. Hey, there's a lot, lot wrong in the Islamic world and has been for a long, long time. Islam is currently going through the pains of reformation, I think, which is a darn good thing. Progressive Muslims are pushing for a modernization of their religion. And for self examination because there's a lot of problems! Where is your humanity, your concern for the Muslim victims in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, etc.? When you white wash and minimize the real problems that exist, particularly those that excuse oppression of minorities, you're doing a disservice to all these people.

Meanwhile you seem oblivious to the daily harassment suffered by most religious minorities at the hands of Zionists in Israel. Most religious minorities who live in areas controlled by the Zionist State of Israel suffer constant discrimination and harassment, often violently with lethal consequences. Israeli settlers and soldiers can literally get away with murdering non-Jews. I can literally cite thousands of examples of assault and violence directed at the Zionist State of Israel's religious minorities which occur on a daily basis.

Quote:


Here are just two examples:


21 Nov. '11: Video: Soldiers let settlers assault
Palestinian demonstrators | B'Tselem
(external - login to view)


Jalud: Another Day, Another Pogrom « Tikun
Olam-
(external - login to view)





Here are recent weekly reports describing the daily suffer of
Palestinians:


December 30, 2011 PCHR Weekly Report: One Palestinian killed, 11 wounded by
Israeli forces this week - International Middle East Media Center
(external - login to view)


January 06, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: Fighter killed, 2 civilians wounded, 32
abducted by Israeli troops this week - International Middle East Media
Center
(external - login to view)


January 13, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: 4 civilians wounded, 29 abducted by Israeli
forces this week - International Middle East Media Center
(external - login to view)



I can predict your response. You will not write about or acknowledge Palestinian suffering. Instead you will reference historical harassment and suffering of Jews like its happening right now, or you will find a current minor incident, proving anti-semticism is alive and well... I am aware of that too. But for every recent example you give of Jews being on the receiving end of harassment and discrimination, I can give a thousand recent examples of Jewish Zionists harassing and discriminating against non-Jews.

There is much suffering among Palestinians. The situation is one of war. There are cases of IDF soldiers, much like the American ones who pissed on the body, who violate their duty. There are also investigations and trials and sentences. There are decisions made by the state of Israel and the IDF that I disagree with very much. And there are also countless BS stories out there that are sheer manipulation of facts and sometimes just lies.

Why do you need to present "Zionists" in such a demonized manner? And Palestianians and Muslims in such an idealized manner?
Why do go for generalizations rather than for the specifics?
 
earth_as_one
#256
Quote: Originally Posted by oleoleolandaView Post

... I am speaking primarily of Arab Muslims, historically and today.

Here's a link for you. You can check out and confirm what it states with other sources.

Point of no return: Massacres of Jews by Muslims before 1948 (external - login to view)

1) Your map is a load of crap. It gives dates and times, but no context. For example the 1921 Jaffa massacre on your map refers to the 1921 Jaffa riot, which initially started as a dispute between two groups of Jews. Arabs got involved, but they were mostly criminals intent on exploiting the chaos to loot stores and shops. Most of the targets were Jewish, because the riot took place in a Jewish neighborhood. If the riot took place in an Arab neighborhood the same Arab criminals would have looted Arab stores and shops. The Jewish shop keepers fought back and in the end the 1921 Jaffa massacre resulted in 95 deaths... 47 Jews and 48 Arabs. ??? I'd say the Arab criminals got a pretty good hiding in that "Jewish massacre". That's just one inaccuracy on your map. I'm sure if I looked at the other so called "Jewish massacres", I'd find similar distortions and manipulations.

2) You aren't talking about the relationship between Muslims and Jews today, You are referencing historical injustices against Jews and ignoring what is going on today.... just as I predicted you would:

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I can predict your response. You will not write about or acknowledge Palestinian suffering. Instead you will reference historical harassment and suffering of Jews like its happening right now...

Obviously I've been down this path before.

Quote: Originally Posted by oleoleolandaView Post

...You say you are for separation of church and state and the lack of this is one of the reasons Zionism outrages you. But separation of religion and state exists to a very large degree in Israel. There is NO separation between religion and state in Arab countries. There are no freedoms. There are no human rights. Women have no rights....

You aren't even reading what I write. I am not against the idea of Zionism.... I am against the injustices that Zionists commit to achieve their objective of creating a pure Jewish state. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that. Here is a quote.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

...I'm not against the idea of Zionism. I'm against the injustices that Zionists committed against the people who had the misfortune of living in a region that Zionists believe God gave to Jews. I am against discrimination and ethnic cleansing.

Obviously your objective is not to debate me, but invent crap about me and then shoot down your invented crap about me. I won't play that game. War crimes have been committed by both sides of this dispute. One huge difference between us is that I can identify the war crimes committed by both sides. You probably can't identify a single Zionist war crime.

To prove my point, I will list a few Palestinian war crimes just to show you that I am aware of them. If you are able to list at least 3 Zionist war crimes then I write a response.

Palestinian war crimes:

1) deliberately firing missiles and mortars at Israeli civilians.
2) Holding a single Israeli soldier prisoner without allowing them to be seen by the Red Cross
3) Suicide bombers against civilian targets.... FYI: the last incident was about a decade ago and most Palestinian militant groups have sworn off the practice for Public Relations reasons.

Your turn. Please list 3 war crimes Zionists have committed in the last 10 years. Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen. I predict you won't list one.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Jan 20th, 2012 at 01:23 AM..
 
oleoleolanda
+5
#257
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

1) Your map is a load of crap. It gives dates and times, but no context. For example the 1921 Jaffa massacre on your map refers to the 1921 Jaffa riot, which initially started as a dispute between two groups of Jews. Arabs got involved, but they were mostly criminals intent on exploiting the chaos to loot stores and shops. Most of the targets were Jewish, because the riot took place in a Jewish neighborhood. If the riot took place in an Arab neighborhood the same Arab criminals would have looted Arab stores and shops. The Jewish shop keepers fought back and in the end the 1921 Jaffa massacre resulted in 95 deaths... 47 Jews and 48 Arabs. ??? I'd say the Arab criminals got a pretty good hiding in that "Jewish massacre". That's just one inaccuracy on your map. I'm sure if I looked at the other so called "Jewish massacres", I'd find similar distortions and manipulations.

2) You aren't talking about the relationship between Muslims and Jews today, You are referencing historical injustices against Jews and ignoring what is going on today.... just as I predicted you would:



Obviously I've been down this path before.



You aren't even reading what I write. I am not against the idea of Zionism.... I am against the injustices that Zionists commit to achieve their objective of creating a pure Jewish state. If you read what I wrote, you'd know that. Here is a quote.


Obviously your objective is not to debate me, but invent crap about me and then shoot down your invented crap about me. I won't play that game. War crimes have been committed by both sides of this dispute. One huge difference between us is that I can identify the war crimes committed by both sides. You probably can't identify a single Zionist war crime.

To prove my point, I will list a few Palestinian war crimes just to show you that I am aware of them. If you are able to list at least 3 Zionist war crimes then I write a response.

Palestinian war crimes:

1) deliberately firing missiles and mortars at Israeli civilians.
2) Holding a single Israeli soldier prisoner without allowing them to be seen by the Red Cross
3) Suicide bombers against civilian targets.... FYI: the last incident was about a decade ago and most Palestinian militant groups have sworn off the practice for Public Relations reasons.

Your turn. Please list 3 war crimes Zionists have committed in the last 10 years. Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen. I predict you won't list one.

I'm not debating you?!?!?! Here's how I can tell you have a great big wall impeding from seeking a realistic understanding of the issues.

* You open the site. You glance at the map. (Not my map, but a link to someone else's sit.) You look at one of the massacres. You distort it and minimize it and based on that, you dismiss every single reference on the site to Jewish persecution by Muslims, without having the curiosity or interest to investigate (which I suggested you do, not to dismiss or approve of the entire site, but to evaluate each reference on your own through other sources.) This type of approch is one used by people who want to "win" the argument, no matter what the facts.

* Your position is entirely based on generalizations about Muslims meant to excuse and minimize any possible issues and problems. You do not address a single fact I present you. Even when you say you know and understand facts, such as Zionism being a primarily secular movement and the creation and defense of Israel being a primarily secular one, you continue to depict Zionism as a religious movement and the issues Israel faces as based on Jewish religious zealotry. In other words, even facts that you yourself know, you ignore because they don't fit your argument.

* You claim to debate against Israel beceause you are concerned with human rights, democracy, justice, separation of religion and state, yet you do not even care if the Palestinina leadership brutally violates and spits on all of these, on their own people, with no checks and balances whatsover, no actual respect for the human rights and freedoms of their own people, but feverishly attack Israel which, for all its problems, has a political and legal system that allows for freedom of speech, human rights, equal rights for women and minorities, and the processes in place for people to lobby for change and improvements, just as we have in Canada. You argue against Israel by excusing and minimizing every action done under Islamic law and rule, every extreme repressive law and rule in Arab Muslim states, including among Palestinians, where separation of religion and state does not exist even in the slightest. And likely won't for a long time, even in emerging democracies, which base their legal systems on sharia law. How is anyone supposed to believe you are concerned about human rights, separation of religion and state, etc.?

The focus of your debate seems to be entirely based on "who is more bad", Zionists or Palestinians? Islam or Judaism?
I'm not interested in such a debate because I'm interested in solutions for Palestinians and Israelis. All you have to do is look at Gaza or the West Bank and their leadership and political and social problems and it's obvious the Palestinain people's suffering would not end with the removal of the Zionist state or the defeat of Zionism. The very issues that are at the core of their conflict with Israel are the very issues that would lead to a continuation of oppression and repression of Palestinians, let alone Jews in the region.

I have no interest in arguing with you. I like debating because it is constructive. I hate arguing. It's just a vicious circle.
 
Goober
+3
#258
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

1).

Add another new member who catches on real quick to your so called reasoning.
 
Goober
#259
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

1.

EAO -

I am again confused on Israel and Hamas and Hezbollah and Fatah and Palestine.
Either you are right and 99.9999 % of the members on this Forum are completely wrong. Or you are wrong.

Also still waiting on what a Non violent Pacifist is.

Your pal Goober.
 
CDNBear
+1
#260
Quote: Originally Posted by oleoleolandaView Post

I'm not debating you?!?!?! Here's how I can tell you have a great big wall impeding from seeking a realistic understanding of the issues.
* You open the site. You glance at the map. (Not my map, but a link to someone else's sit.) You look at one of the massacres. You distort it and minimize it and based on that, you dismiss every single reference on the site to Jewish persecution by Muslims, without having the curiosity or interest to investigate (which I suggested you do, not to dismiss or approve of the entire site, but to evaluate each reference on your own through other sources.) This type of approch is one used by people who want to "win" the argument, no matter what the facts.
* Your position is entirely based on generalizations about Muslims meant to excuse and minimize any possible issues and problems. You do not address a single fact I present you. Even when you say you know and understand facts, such as Zionism being a primarily secular movement and the creation and defense of Israel being a primarily secular one, you continue to depict Zionism as a religious movement and the issues Israel faces as based on Jewish religious zealotry. In other words, even facts that you yourself know, you ignore because they don't fit your argument.
* You claim to debate against Israel beceause you are concerned with human rights, democracy, justice, separation of religion and state, yet you do not even care if the Palestinina...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
You just nailed EAO perfectly there.

No doubt he'll blame me for your astute grasp of his limitations.
 
earth_as_one
#261
I just exposed yet another Israeli apologist. Incapable of admitting a single Israeli war crime or crime against humanity. Someone who believes creating a pure Jewish state is secular and that a riot which results in 47 Jewish deaths and 48 Arab deaths meets the definition of a Jewish massacre.
 
Goober
#262
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I just exposed yet another Israeli apologist. Incapable of admitting a single Israeli war crime or crime against humanity. Someone who believes creating a pure Jewish state is secular and that a riot which results in 47 Jewish deaths and 48 Arab deaths meets the definition of a Jewish massacre.

Right. I am sure that you do not advertise your prejudiced opinions in the workplace / family / friends. If you have done so then that may be why people avoid you.
 
CDNBear
#263
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I just exposed yet another Israeli apologist.

No you didn't.

Quote:

Incapable of admitting a single Israeli war crime or crime against humanity.

More like incapable of wasting any time dealing with an ideologue like you.

Quote:

Someone who believes creating a pure Jewish state is secular and that a riot which results in 47 Jewish deaths and 48 Arab deaths meets the definition of a Jewish massacre.

Your cherry picking of one claim a that site aside. Arabs making up 20% of Israels population, exposes you for what you are.
 
earth_as_one
#264
I'm against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity regardless of race or religion. Even Israeli apologist agree with me, until they realize I am referring to both sides of that conflict.
 
CDNBear
+1
#265
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I'm against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity regardless of race or religion.

How many more times do you think you'll have to say that before you actually believe it yourself?

Quote:

Even Israeli apologist agree with me, until they realize I am referring to both sides of that conflict.

Correction, until they realize it's BS. Then they just call you what you really are, a Jew hater.
 
Goober
#266
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I'm against people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity regardless of race or religion. Even Israeli apologist agree with me, until they realize I am referring to both sides of that conflict.

Seems that the new member to the Forum as we would say, Ripped you a new one.

Odd how you think you are knowledgeable on Mid East History when it has been shown time and time and yes time again how poorly informed you are.

That is normal for those with an agenda.
Last edited by Goober; Jan 20th, 2012 at 07:46 PM..
 
oleoleolanda
+4
#267
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I just exposed yet another Israeli apologist. Incapable of admitting a single Israeli war crime or crime against humanity. Someone who believes creating a pure Jewish state is secular and that a riot which results in 47 Jewish deaths and 48 Arab deaths meets the definition of a Jewish massacre.

48 Jews were butchered with the type of brutality unfortunately so tyical of hate crimes, and 148 who were injured in the same manner..

Most of the Arabs deaths and injuries were a result of clashes with the police who intervened.

This difference is irrelevant to you? Earth, you disappoint me terribly. I really thought you were someone motivated by human rights and democratic values. Even in my most pro-Palestinian days, I would have read through that site and investigated the massacres and persecution, not one, but a whole lot of them, if not all. I probably would have come back with another argument, because I was hell bent on saving the poor suffering Palestinians, I was. I always figure when people have no curiosity it is because they either subconsciously know their views are based on insufficient and poor facts and are afraid of their views being trully challenged---or they're talking bs and they know it but they don't care because its completely consistent with their values.

The other tactic used, of course, is to label people. Aha! An Israeli apologist. Done. You can dismiss anything they say. It's all anti-curisosity to increase one's knowldge and test one's views.

I'm hoping you'll prove me wrong about you, though. Some of the best lessons I've had in life have come from realizing I was wrong about something.
 
CDNBear
+1
#268
You're barking up the wrong tree Oleo, if you think EAO will read anything (Objectively), that interferes with his hatred and demonization of Jews.
 
Goober
+1
#269
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

You're barking up the wrong tree Oleo, if you think EAO will read anything (Objectively), that interferes with his hatred and demonization of Jews.

Oleo
What he does is drop the facts and cherry picks what fits his narrow minded racist opinion of Jews and Israel.
Every time a hard question is asked, he runs off, heads for bed and turns on the night light. He equates hard questions, facts with the bogeyman that still chases him.
 
oleoleolanda
#270
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

You just nailed EAO perfectly there.

No doubt he'll blame me for your astute grasp of his limitations.

I probably would have infuriated you with my passionate dedication to saving Palestinians from Israel about 8 years ago. LOL There's a lot of people who get dragged into the anti-Israeli mentality who, if they knew the history and issues, wouldn't. On the other hand, the hatred towards Zionists is often a sign there's far more going on. I remember very early on learning on forums from very patient posters about Zionism and the fact there there's actually so many variations of Zionsim and realizing too that the people who used the word to describe Israelis were the most anti-Semitic-driven. Well, the worst are the ones who describe Israel as the "Zionist Entity". Those are scary!

Still, in those days I was going through a very difficult time in my personal life, plus I had a misguided need for much of my life to save the underdog, save the victims and the helpless and so it wasn't too hard for the propaganda to pull me in. There's all kinds of stuff that goes into how people form their views and why they fight for a certain cause quite often. It's not always rational and values-based. I like to believe people can change their views.
 

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