[QUOTE=earth_as_one;1535361]OK I will follow you off topic...
You focus on only Islamic intolerance. I am aware of this too, but I can
find equally unreasonable, dumb, mean spirited, racist, intolerant statements
in the religious texts of Christians, Jews and Muslims. Yet, reasonable
tolerant people are the majority in all three religions. Only a minority of
extremists use religious texts to justify their fear and hate. You'll find
these extremists in all religions. You seem focused only on Muslim extremists,
yet you won't even comment on Palestinian suffering as a result of Jewish
extremists, let alone condemn them.
I'm not doing the go through the Koran or Bible looking for comparisons. I'm speaking of actual practice and not just historical but in the present. And I'm really not speaking of Muslims. I am speaking primarily of Arab Muslims, historically and today.
Here's a link for you. You can check out and confirm what it states with other sources.
Point of no return: Massacres of Jews by Muslims before 1948 (external - login to view)
But if you want to look at religions, I'm afraid there is a slight difference between Islam among Arabs in Arab countries, and Pakistan and Iran, in particular, than Christianity and Judaism. That difference is that Islam has never fully experienced a reformation, the pains of modernization that the other major religions have. Do you think Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt, or even the United Arab Emirates. There is also a strong historical and cultural supremacism among Arabs. And it isn't just Jews who are persecuted. It's all minorities. Including, in Saudi Arabi, for example, Shia Muslims. You say you are for separation of church and state and the lack of this is one of the reasons Zionism outrages you. But separation of religion and state exists to a very large degree in Israel. There is NO separation between religion and state in Arab countries. There are no freedoms. There are no human rights. Women have no rights.
Israel has Muslim citizens, who have the same rights as Jewish citizens. It has refuseniks and it has media that debates openly and freely. It is a democracy. It's one that has a unique mandate--to remain a safe haven for all the world's Jews should they be in need of a safe haven. So it has safety measures to ensure that, which might strike us as anti-democratic in a country like Canada, but then again, the very idea or reservations for aboriginal peoples does seem a bit anti-democratic as well. And hey, in Quebec, there's the "language police", now what's that?! No democracy is ideal, and reality is always complex, with histories and issues that have to be specifically addressed rather than with generalized idealisms about what life should be like. Democracies are, in short, like your average human being. Messed up, with problems, but overall, trying to do good and grow, evolve.
Egypt is just beginning its journey--we hope. But if your lack of concern for the human beings in these countries, for the suffering they experience, the brutal and backward and extreme oppression is shocking to me. Don't you think Shia in Saudi Arabia or Gaza, for that matter, matter? Don't you care about the oppression and barbaric suffering of Palestinians under the rule of Hamas or the Palestinian Authority, whose human rights record are horrific?
Do you care about Palestinian suffering or do you care about Zionist "wrongs?" If you cared about Palestinian suffering, then we can talk because I care about the suffering of Palestinian refugees who will not be granted human rights by their own people, citizenship, who are forced to this day, after generations to still live in refugee camps. As if they were less than other Palestinians simply because their grandparents lived in Israel once. Doen't that outrage you?
If I understand you, you are against Muslims reclaiming land they used to
occupy, but you are for Jews reclaiming land they used to occupy, even though
that was some 2000 years ago. Seems to me you favor Judaism over Islam, rather
than being neutral.
First of all, Jewish people lived in the land we now know as Palestine and Israel continuously. I know someone who has Jewish relatives who had lived in the West Bank for generations and generations and had to leave their homes. The difference is their children and great grand children are full Israeli citizens, not refugees. But there were Jewish refugees as well. There are also Christians and some other minorities. I am not someone who believes that land belongs to anyone based on their religion. I reject that particular Islamic concept. I also reject that argument among some Israelis. Why do you argue from a religious perspective if you believe in secular states and laws? Israelis are Muslim as well, even if they are a minority.
Everywhere there is a religious majority, there is a religious minority.
Without exception, all religious majorities have harassed and discriminated
against the minorities. Christians and Muslims harassed Jews for centuries and
now that the Jews have the upper hand in the Zionist state of Israel, they've
proven that they are just as capable of discrimination and intolerance as anyone
else. That's a statement about humanity, not Judaism.
This is just a generalist argument that is completely disconnected with the specifics.
am awaer that non-Muslims sometimes were required to pay extra taxes in
Muslim countries. Typically the same rules applied to all non-Muslims, rather
than Jews specifically. Often the point of this "extra" tax, was to make up the
difference resulting from the "charitable" donations Muslim are required to make
to their local Mosque to support social projects which benefit the entire
community including religious minorities.. In many Muslim countries, Jews and
Christians could avoid extra taxes by paying the same amount to their local
synagogue or church as Muslims donate to their mosque. The purpose of these
taxes typically was to raise money for social welfare projects like public
schools and and hospitals. Since non-Muslims also benefited from hospitals and
other social projects funded by Muslim charity, paying your share would be fair.
I'm not saying Muslims were always fair to religious minorities, because they
weren't... but you seem to believe these additional taxes were always unfair.
Sometimes they were fair and sometimes they weren't. I can give examples if you
like. I suggest you read up about how Jews were by the Ottomans.
History of the Jews in Turkey - Wikipedia, the
free encyclopedia (external - login to view)
Some slave masters were nice to their slaves and some were not too. It was up to the masters. The slaves were at their mercy. I was under the impression you believe in human rights and freedoms, not in benevolent masters.
You seem to have a twisted view of the historical relationship between Muslims
and Jews. You seem to blame Muslims for Christian acts of anti-semitism. For
example, 'Pogram" is a Russian word. That's a big clue about where the term
originates. Yet you apply it to Muslim discrimination and harassment of Jews,
when in fact it refers to European harassment of Jews... specifically how Jews
were treated in Czarist Russia. I'm aware Jews have been harassed by Muslims,
but unlike "Christians", Muslims never rounded up Jews for extermination.
Earth_as_one! That is the cheapest debating trick I've seen in a long time!!! LOL. Come on! You turned the historical orgins of a word I used into a false argument. I wrote to you about specific Islamic laws and beliefs. Had nothing to do with Christians. Why do you have this profound idealization of Muslims, btw? You have them on a pedastal, it seems, as if they can do no wrong. Hey, there's a lot, lot wrong in the Islamic world and has been for a long, long time. Islam is currently going through the pains of reformation, I think, which is a darn good thing. Progressive Muslims are pushing for a modernization of their religion. And for self examination because there's a lot of problems! Where is your humanity, your concern for the Muslim victims in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, etc.? When you white wash and minimize the real problems that exist, particularly those that excuse oppression of minorities, you're doing a disservice to all these people.
Meanwhile you seem oblivious to the daily harassment suffered by most religious minorities at the hands of Zionists in Israel. Most religious minorities who live in areas controlled by the Zionist State of Israel suffer constant discrimination and harassment, often violently with lethal consequences. Israeli settlers and soldiers can literally get away with murdering non-Jews. I can literally cite thousands of examples of assault and violence directed at the Zionist State of Israel's religious minorities which occur on a daily basis.
Here are just two examples:
21 Nov. '11: Video: Soldiers let settlers assault
Palestinian demonstrators | B'Tselem (external - login to view)
Jalud: Another Day, Another Pogrom « Tikun
Olam- (external - login to view)
Here are recent weekly reports describing the daily suffer of
December 30, 2011 PCHR Weekly Report: One Palestinian killed, 11 wounded by
Israeli forces this week - International Middle East Media Center (external - login to view)
January 06, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: Fighter killed, 2 civilians wounded, 32
abducted by Israeli troops this week - International Middle East Media
Center (external - login to view)
January 13, 2012 PCHR Weekly Report: 4 civilians wounded, 29 abducted by Israeli
forces this week - International Middle East Media Center (external - login to view)
I can predict your response. You will not write about or acknowledge Palestinian suffering. Instead you will reference historical harassment and suffering of Jews like its happening right now, or you will find a current minor incident, proving anti-semticism is alive and well... I am aware of that too. But for every recent example you give of Jews being on the receiving end of harassment and discrimination, I can give a thousand recent examples of Jewish Zionists harassing and discriminating against non-Jews.
There is much suffering among Palestinians. The situation is one of war. There are cases of IDF soldiers, much like the American ones who pissed on the body, who violate their duty. There are also investigations and trials and sentences. There are decisions made by the state of Israel and the IDF that I disagree with very much. And there are also countless BS stories out there that are sheer manipulation of facts and sometimes just lies.
Why do you need to present "Zionists" in such a demonized manner? And Palestianians and Muslims in such an idealized manner?
Why do go for generalizations rather than for the specifics?