Politicaly Incorrect old news.......


DaSleeper
#1
LAW OF THE LAND
Punishment includes Islam indoctrination
Canadian to resume hate-crimes sentence under Muslim direction




By Art Moore
© 2011 WND




Quote:


An Ontario man convicted of promoting hatred against Muslims says his community-service sentence has included indoctrination into Islam.
After losing an appeal to Canada's Supreme Court on Oct. 17, Mark Harding must resume his sentence of two years probation and 340 hours of community service under the direction of Mohammad Ashraf, general secretary of the Islamic Society of North America in Mississauga, Ont.

Harding, 47, said he had one session under Ashraf in 1998 before an appeal process stayed the sentence.

Ashraf, according to Harding, said that instead of licking stamps and stuffing envelopes, "it would be better if you learned about Islam."

The cleric made it clear, Harding recalled in an interview with WorldNetDaily, that during the sessions nothing negative could be said about Islam or its prophet, Muhammad.

"He said he was my supervisor, and if I didn't follow what he said, he would send me back to jail," recounted Harding, who had been prevented from speaking publicly about his case under a gag order.

Harding was convicted in 1998 on federal hate-crimes charges stemming from a June 1997 incident in which he distributed pamphlets outside a public high school, Weston Collegiate Institute in Toronto. Harding – who said that until that point he spent most of his time evangelizing Muslims – was protesting the school's policy of setting aside a room for Muslim students to pray during school hours.

The rest of the story (external - login to view)
 
gerryh
+1
#2  Top Rated Post
Punishment includes learning about Islam. But that's OK, indoctrination sells more papers.
 
In Between Man
+1
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Punishment includes learning about Islam. But that's OK, indoctrination sells more papers.

This is in fact an attempt at indoctrination under the guise of combating "Islamophobia". This is evidenced by this poor guy's claim that he wasn't allowed to say anything negative about Islam or their pedophile prophet during the learning session. If it truly was a learning atmosphere and not an indoctrination one, you would be free to object, criticize and ask questions. That's part of the natural learning experience.

Can you imagine the moral outrage from secularists if an atheist who was criticizing Christianity (which is fair) was convicted of a "hate crime" and was sentenced to "learn" about Christianity with no objections allowed during his punishment? They would be screaming bloody murder! But of course there's a clear double standard when it comes to "poor, misunderstood" Islam.
 
gerryh
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

This is in fact an attempt at indoctrination under the guise of combating "Islamophobia". This is evidenced by this poor guy's claim that he wasn't allowed to say anything negative about Islam or their pedophile prophet during the learning session. If it truly was a learning atmosphere and not an indoctrination one, you would be free to object, criticize and ask questions. That's part of the natural learning experience.

Can you imagine the moral outrage from secularists if an atheist who was criticizing Christianity (which is fair) was convicted of a "hate crime" and was sentenced to "learn" about Christianity with no objections allowed during his punishment? They would be screaming bloody murder! But of course there's a clear double standard when it comes to "poor, misunderstood" Islam.


Take the blinders off dumb ass and read exactley what he was charged with, found guilty of, and why. Criticism is one thing, inciting hatred is another. and knock it off with the pedophile cracks, or I'll start in with marriages and concubines from the OT. Glass houses you know.
 
In Between Man
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Take the blinders off dumb ass and read exactley what he was charged with, found guilty of, and why. Criticism is one thing, inciting hatred is another. and knock it off with the pedophile cracks, or I'll start in with marriages and concubines from the OT. Glass houses you know.

Hate speech should be protected. If you think "inciting hatred" should be a punishable offense, then you are in fact against freedom of speech. The following paragraph implies that non-Muslims are a blood thirsty threat to Muslims and Islamic ways. Do you think it's hate speech, or do you sympathize?:

"Such a man [non-Muslims] ... will spread confusion and disorder on the earth," the book says. "He will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men's rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. His perverted thoughts and ambitions, his blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and his evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for him and for all around him."


 
gerryh
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

Hate speech should be protected. If you think "inciting hatred" should be a punishable offense, then you are in fact against freedom of speech. The following paragraph implies that non-Muslims are a blood thirsty threat to Muslims and Islamic ways. Do you think it's hate speech, or do you sympathize?:

"Such a man [non-Muslims] ... will spread confusion and disorder on the earth," the book says. "He will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men's rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. His perverted thoughts and ambitions, his blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and his evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for him and for all around him."




No where in that paragraph is anyone inciting hatred or violence. What I would get from that is that it is best to stay away from such people.
 
In Between Man
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

No where in that paragraph is anyone inciting hatred or violence. What I would get from that is that it is best to stay away from such people.

Is this hate speech?:

"Muslims will spread confusion and disorder on the earth. Muslims will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men's rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. Their perverted thoughts and ambitions, their blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and their evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for them and for all around him."
 
gerryh
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

Is this hate speech?:

"Muslims will spread confusion and disorder on the earth. Muslims will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men's rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. Their perverted thoughts and ambitions, their blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and their evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for them and for all around him."


Partial quote with no link for reference. Try again.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Dec 31st, 2011 at 07:28 PM..Reason: Cut out the personal attack of "numb nuts"
 
In Between Man
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Partial quote with no link for reference. Try again numb nuts.

There is no link for reference. How could you miss that it's the same quote just reworded from non-Muslims to Muslims? When it was the actual quote from a Muslim describing non-Muslims, you asserted it was not hate speech. Now I'm asking you, IF the exact same thing was said of Muslims, would you have the same opinion?
 
gerryh
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

There is no link for reference. How could you miss that it's the same quote just reworded from non-Muslims to Muslims? When it was the actual quote from a Muslim describing non-Muslims, you asserted it was not hate speech. Now I'm asking you, IF the exact same thing was said of Muslims, would you have the same opinion?

Either way Alley, your ignorance is getting tiresome. Instead of finding ways for how we can all live together, you and your brain dead buddies do everything you can to find problems, differences and reasons we can't.

and yes I realize my tone is VERY confrontational, but I am sick and tired of the idiots, like yourself, who can find more reasons to hate and to go to war than anything else.
 
In Between Man
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Either way Alley, your ignorance is getting tiresome. Instead of finding ways for how we can all live together, you and your brain dead buddies do everything you can to find problems, differences and reasons we can't.

and yes I realize my tone is VERY confrontational, but I am sick and tired of the idiots, like yourself, who can find more reasons to hate and to go to war than anything else.

Are you even capable of formulating an argument without insulting? Insulting those you disagree with is a classic symptom of someone who is unable to satisfactorily defend their views. Funny how you don't think I'm an idiot when it comes to abortion. Why is that?
 
gerryh
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

Are you even capable of formulating an argument without insulting? Insulting those you disagree with is a classic symptom of someone who is unable to satisfactorily defend their views. Funny how you don't think I'm an idiot when it comes to abortion. Why is that?

\

You do NOT deserve anything more. You spout and quote the Bible till the cows come home, but you miss Christs main message. So, basically, screw off.
 
JLM
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

\

You do NOT deserve anything more. You spout and quote the Bible till the cows come home, but you miss Christs main message. So, basically, screw off.

Are you making any New Year's resolutions, Gerry?
 
In Between Man
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

\

You do NOT deserve anything more. You spout and quote the Bible till the cows come home, but you miss Christs main message. So, basically, screw off.

You're willing to believe Christ's words about love, yet you won't believe his words that judge. Funny that.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Are you making any New Year's resolutions, Gerry?

I hope he is. If he won't have the luxury to insult others in heaven, I don't see why he thinks it's acceptable to do it here on earth!
 
gerryh
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Are you making any New Year's resolutions, Gerry?

possibly
 
JLM
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

possibly

Good, that's a sign of open mindedness.
 
gerryh
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

You're willing to believe Christ's words about love, yet you won't believe his words that judge. Funny that.

I'm not willing to accept what "man" says are Christ's words about judgement.

Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post


I hope he is. If he won't have the luxury to insult others in heaven, I don't see why he thinks it's acceptable to do it here on earth!

Strange, you have no problem with my insults when they are against someone that YOU disagree with, but when the shoe is on the other foot, and the "insults" are aimed at you....there you are, whining like a baby.
 
damngrumpy
+1
#18
I think there is a divide between criticism and hatred, and that should be front and center
in any decisions being made. The courts can force him to go to Islam learning but under
the current situation the sentence is of little value. When we speak of martyrs we are
usually talking about the Islamic world, however many in Canada will see this guy a
you guessed it a martyr.
The other reason is that if someone has hatred in his heart, no amount of education is
going to reduce the hatred it only makes it worse. I would not respond warmly to these
people either if I was forced to learn any one's religion, as religion is a personal thing.
As for the pedophile religious leader, well historically that is true and is fair game. If one
is going to use that though, we should also include the excesses of the Christian faith
both present and past.
What is the point though, isn't it time we learned from the past and corrected the present?
I do not believe forcing any one's religion on someone else is an answer though it breeds
resentment not understanding.
 
gerryh
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

I think there is a divide between criticism and hatred, and that should be front and center
in any decisions being made. The courts can force him to go to Islam learning but under
the current situation the sentence is of little value. When we speak of martyrs we are
usually talking about the Islamic world, however many in Canada will see this guy a
you guessed it a martyr.
The other reason is that if someone has hatred in his heart, no amount of education is
going to reduce the hatred it only makes it worse. I would not respond warmly to these
people either if I was forced to learn any one's religion, as religion is a personal thing.
As for the pedophile religious leader, well historically that is true and is fair game. If one
is going to use that though, we should also include the excesses of the Christian faith
both present and past.
What is the point though, isn't it time we learned from the past and corrected the present?
I do not believe forcing any one's religion on someone else is an answer though it breeds
resentment not understanding.


DG.... did YOU read the article? Or did you just read the fu cking title. He's not being FORCED to do shyte. Part of his probation is to LEARN ABOUT Islam.
 
damngrumpy
#20
Gerry, I am saying that part of his probation is learning about Islam, and it is counter
productive. If you use the law to force someone to learn about something they are
opposed to or they have already made up their mind based on opinion, hatred or
anything else is not going to change anything, it will merely make the person more
entrenched in the opposition they are already committed to.
Probation could say he cannot make anti Islamic statements during his probation but
I believe it is in fact counter to the charter of rights and freedoms to force someone
to learn about anything against their will. I myself have some criticism of the Islamic
faith, and the way they are anti democratic and intolerant of others, but I don't hate
these people I am merely critical of their belief system in a democracy especially
when they hide behind their religion. Of course I am critical of Christians and others
when they hold beliefs counter for democracy in our society, and again they use
religion to skirt the law. It is my opinion that all religions should be bound first by the
laws of the land like any other group or person. Religion should not be exempted
from obedience to the law of the land regardless.
I think as a legal requirement, the law should determine the difference between what
is criticism and what is hate speech. If there is probation for this guy, it should not include
learning anything about the people he offended because he is not going to change
anyway. Forcing someone to learn about people he hates is a waste of time, because
when the probation is done nothing will change. Give him a fine or a short jail sentence
and move on, all this decision does is make more precedent and restrict people freedoms
even more.
 
gerryh
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

Gerry, I am saying that part of his probation is learning about Islam, and it is counter
productive. If you use the law to force someone to learn about something they are
opposed to or they have already made up their mind based on opinion, hatred or
anything else is not going to change anything, it will merely make the person more
entrenched in the opposition they are already committed to.
Probation could say he cannot make anti Islamic statements during his probation but
I believe it is in fact counter to the charter of rights and freedoms to force someone
to learn about anything against their will. I myself have some criticism of the Islamic
faith, and the way they are anti democratic and intolerant of others, but I don't hate
these people I am merely critical of their belief system in a democracy especially
when they hide behind their religion. Of course I am critical of Christians and others
when they hold beliefs counter for democracy in our society, and again they use
religion to skirt the law. It is my opinion that all religions should be bound first by the
laws of the land like any other group or person. Religion should not be exempted
from obedience to the law of the land regardless.
I think as a legal requirement, the law should determine the difference between what
is criticism and what is hate speech. If there is probation for this guy, it should not include
learning anything about the people he offended because he is not going to change
anyway. Forcing someone to learn about people he hates is a waste of time, because
when the probation is done nothing will change. Give him a fine or a short jail sentence
and move on, all this decision does is make more precedent and restrict people freedoms
even more.

disagree. If the asshole isn't willing to learn, then lock the son of a bitch up till he does.
 
Niflmir
+1
#22
Something similar to this happened in the US: The Volokh Conspiracy » Church as Alternative to Jail (external - login to view). This clearly infringes on Harding's freedom of religion, whether it is justifiable under section 1 is up to the courts to decide----if Harding can afford the lawyer.

The part where "...during the sessions nothing negative could be said about Islam or its prophet, Muhammad" is especially egregious, since it turns it from a dichotomy of a) learn about Islam or b) go to jail into a) learn about Islam while giving up your freedom of expression or b) go to jail. But again, it is up for the courts to decide if this passes a section 1 analysis.

It is funny for me to hear about Harding again, having often used him to juxtapose the human rights tribunal. The Conservative's being so proud that they got rid of the human rights tribunal, which is only allowed to hear about this sort of thing when it happens on the internet, why can they not be consistent and scrap the criminal hate speech laws as well? I'd be even happier to see true freedom of speech return with them scrapping libel & slander crimes.
 

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