There’s no such thing as Canadian values


dumpthemonarchy
#1
I disagree obviously. I wonder if this guy has ever traveled. I think secular ideas like democracy, equality, justice and tolerance are values, but not this guy. We didn't invent them, but Canadians do refine them in a unique way. Maybe he means values are morals. Could be all semantics. But he is very elitist.

I would disagree with the idea that Canada doesn't try to assimilate immigrants, of course we do, but we do it in our own way. If you're from the state of Punjab in India, you're no longer surrounded by India, you have to act Canadian, because when you go back, your friends notice a difference in you accent and behaviour.

When says,

The classic example is the debate over the Sikh Mountie who asked for permission to wear a turban instead of the
traditional Stetson. While the idea made assimilationists want to chew leather, they failed to understand that the whole point of
permitting the turban was to integrate the Sikh community into one of Canada’s most visible and important institutions. The
alternative — banning the turban — would have the perverse effect of alienating the Sikh community from the national police force,
contributing to the very cultural isolation that assimilationists claim to abhor.

Like most simple people Potter sees groups he doesn't understand as a unified, homogenous whole. Many people from India approve of wearing the turban privately, but not as part of the national police force. They want a secular Canada too and fewer religious symbols shown in public as their own, or previous country has had lethal sectarian violence.

Then he uses the example of the Muslim child in kindergarten who is permitted to wear noise reducing device so she doesn't have to listen to music. That teachers allowed this shows how pathetic they are.



There (external - login to view)


There’s no such thing as Canadian values







By Andrew Potter, The Ottawa Citizen December 22, 2011



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One of the most enduring misconceptions about Canada's immigration policy is the idea that, ever since the eary '70s, Canada has styled itself as a 'mosaic' that encourages immigrants to maintian their old values and tradtions.

Photograph by: Chris Mikukla, The Ottawa Citizen




It would be a lot easier to debate the tough cases of Canadian multiculturalism if people understood how the system actually works. That includes everyone from taxi drivers and barbers to those who spend their time trolling the comment boards of political blogs or loitering around the virtual water-coolers of social media. It includes radio and television hosts, editorialists and pundits. And it also includes the Citizenship and Immigration minister himself, Jason Kenney, who last week announced that henceforward, anyone who takes the oath of citizenship must do so unveiled and uncovered.

Announcing the new policy in Montreal, Kenney said that it is “a matter of pure principle, which lies at the heart of our identity and values with respect to openness and equality.” The citizenship ceremony, he went on, “defines who we are as Canadians including our mutual responsibilities to one another and a shared commitment to values that are rooted in our history.”

For conservatives, a Canadian immigration minister using words like “we” and “our” and making forceful references to “shared values” is like the scene in A Fish Called Wanda where Kevin Kline seduces Jamie Lee Curtis with his cannonball Italian: you could hear the moans of ecstasy of the right-wing pundits from Tofino to Torbay.

For the rest of us, it is another lost opportunity for our leaders to educate Canadians about how their country functions, what holds it together, and how we can think about how to reasonably accommodate newcomers. Because here’s the plain truth: Canadians don’t have shared values. We never have, and we never will. But that’s not a problem, because the ongoing cohesion of Canadian society is not seriously threatened by deep pluralism. If it was, we would never have got past the sectarian, linguistic, and cultural divides of the 19th century.

Canada is a liberal democracy, and like similar societies, it is designed to allow us to get along despite widespread and non-negotiable disagreements over values — that is, over how people should live their lives. Our political institutions, underwritten by constitutional declarations such as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, don’t assume that citizens have shared values. Instead, they work by providing a framework that is neutral with respect to controversial questions of value. This neutrality is what underwrites our freedoms of expression, of religion, and of association. It is also what motivated a young Pierre Trudeau to declare that the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation, and which inevitably led to homosexuals winning the right to marry.
What does this have to do with immigration?

One of the most enduring misconceptions about Canada’s immigration policy is the idea that, ever since the early ’70s, Canada has styled itself as a “mosaic” that encourages immigrants to maintain their old values and traditions. This has outraged those who believe that the only way to save Canadian society is to force immigrants to “assimilate,” that is, to adopt our notional shared values. But this is a false dichotomy. Canada certainly does not try to assimilate immigrants, but we don’t offer a mosaic either. Rather, the institutions and policies we have designed are aimed at the middle path of successful integration: allowing newcomers to keep as much of their cultural traditions as possible, while providing the means for their full participation in civic life.

The classic example is the debate over the Sikh Mountie who asked for permission to wear a turban instead of the traditional Stetson. While the idea made assimilationists want to chew leather, they failed to understand that the whole point of permitting the turban was to integrate the Sikh community into one of Canada’s most visible and important institutions. The alternative — banning the turban — would have the perverse effect of alienating the Sikh community from the national police force, contributing to the very cultural isolation that assimilationists claim to abhor.

On the other side there is the case this week of the kindergarten student in Montreal who will be allowed to wear a noise-reducing headset in class, because her Muslim parents say their religious beliefs don’t allow the five-year-old girl to listen to music. The school’s reasoning was that it was a reasonable compromise that would help the girl integrate into the school system, since the alternative would be that her parents would keep her out of school altogether.

This is the underlying structure of every debate of this kind that Canada has had over the years. From kirpans in schools to the use of Shariah in family law, the goal has never been to turn the country into a land of isolated communities. Instead, it has been to find a reasonable accommodation of cultural difference that integrates newcomers into a shared civic space.

This does not mean that such an accommodation can always be found, and people can reasonably disagree over how far is too far. But it does provide a way of thinking about the issue that avoids references to a shared culture and shared set of values that exists only in the minds of xenophobes and politicians on the stump.

Andrew Potter is the Citizen’s managing editor.






 
Cliffy
#2
I think all those Canadian flags that were made in China are more of a problem to Canadian sovereignty than immigration. Canada was built by DPs for DPs. You want to destroy the reason Canada was built because you don't like ethnic food? you are very unpatriotic.
 
CDNBear
+9 / -1
#3  Top Rated Post
This reminds me of the limo driver that drove us to a Christmas party Thursday night, A Muslim from Lebanon (I know, because I had to ask).

When I hopped in the car, I could hear AM640 on his radio.

The two of us, much to SCB's chagrin, discussed politics all the way to the party.

He was very perplexed and dismayed by the nanny state mentality in Canada.

He wanted to know who was paying the bills for all the people at the Occupy protests.

He wanted to know why the gov't owed people jobs.

He wanted to know why he could find gainful employment with a limited knowledge of the language, and customs, and these homegrown occupiers couldn't.

Then we discussed the differences between the old world sense of family and community or communalism, and the dysfunction of the North American family unit.

I said he was far to smart to be driving a limo, he said, he gets to meet some really nice people.

I really liked the values he had, and what he brought to the multicultural table.
 
SLM
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

This reminds me of the limo driver that drove us to a Christmas party Thursday night, A Muslim from Lebanon (I know, because I had to ask).

When I hopped in the car, I could hear AM640 on his radio.

The two of us, much to SCB's chagrin, discussed politics all the way to the party.

He was very perplexed and dismayed by the nanny state mentality in Canada.

He wanted to know who was paying the bills for all the people at the Occupy protests.

He wanted to know why the gov't owed people jobs.

He wanted to know why he could find gainful employment with a limited knowledge of the language, and customs, and these homegrown occupiers couldn't.

Then we discussed the differences between the old world sense of family and community or communalism, and the dysfunction of the North American family unit.

I said he was far to smart to be driving a limo, he said, he gets to meet some really nice people.

I really liked the values he had, and what he brought to the multicultural table.

Nice. You know I've often thought that if you want to talk to someone who holds real Canadian values in high regard, talk to an immigrant. They get it.
 
captain morgan
+1
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

This reminds me of the limo driver that drove us to a Christmas party Thursday night, A Muslim from Lebanon (I know, because I had to ask).

When I hopped in the car, I could hear AM640 on his radio.

The two of us, much to SCB's chagrin, discussed politics all the way to the party.

He was very perplexed and dismayed by the nanny state mentality in Canada.

He wanted to know who was paying the bills for all the people at the Occupy protests.

He wanted to know why the gov't owed people jobs.

He wanted to know why he could find gainful employment with a limited knowledge of the language, and customs, and these homegrown occupiers couldn't.

Then we discussed the differences between the old world sense of family and community or communalism, and the dysfunction of the North American family unit.

I said he was far to smart to be driving a limo, he said, he gets to meet some really nice people.

I really liked the values he had, and what he brought to the multicultural table.

Sounds like a very interesting cab ride, but in the end, the take-away I got from this is that 'people are people' regardless of their background and in this case, you hit on someone that happens to share some similar values as yourself.
 
CDNBear
+2
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

Nice. You know I've often thought that if you want to talk to someone who holds real Canadian values in high regard, talk to an immigrant. They get it.

Yes they do. This isn't the first immigrant I've met who was a straight shooter.

I've met a great many.

I think the one that stands out in my mind the most, was a gentleman I met purely by accident. Literally. He was involved in a car accident that I just happened to witness. I was the only witness to stop, render aid and provide a statement.

When the other party to the accident fought the charges he incurred, I went to court to testify.

After the quick settlement, I was offered lunch and a beer by the gentleman, I turned it down, simply on the grounds of impropriety. But I did except a coffee. Over coffee, he explained the long painful journey he went through to come to Canada. It was tearful to be sure. Along the way, he lost his wife to illness, but still persevered, while caring for his sons.

He routes for the home team, espouses the very core of Canadian values, and would take up arms to defend this land, without hesitation. Even if it meant standing against his own countrymen.

For the very same reasons I do not believe democracy can be installed, instead of achieved. I believe that the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here explicitly for a better life and to become part of something bigger and better than that of what they fled.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Sounds like a very interesting cab ride, but in the end, the take-away I got from this is that 'people are people' regardless of their background and in this case, you hit on someone that happens to share some similar values as yourself.

Pretty much.

I will not lie and say that I haven't met some immigrants, that simply see a system ripe for exploitation.

But it has been my experience, that most, whether I share any commonality with them or not, came here to be free, to live and enjoy the fruits of our forefathers, while adding to what came before them.
Last edited by CDNBear; Dec 24th, 2011 at 07:23 AM..
 
petros
+2
#7
We won the lotto simply being born here.
 
SLM
+3
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

Sounds like a very interesting cab ride, but in the end, the take-away I got from this is that 'people are people' regardless of their background and in this case, you hit on someone that happens to share some similar values as yourself.

Right on. People are people, as capable of being vastly different from those of the same background as they can be similar to those of a different background.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Yes they do. This isn't the first immigrant I've met who was a straight shooter.

I've met a great many.

I think the one that stands out in my mind the most, was a gentleman I met purely by accident. Literally. He was involved in a car accident that I just happened to witness. I was the only witness to stop, render aid and provide a statement.

When the other party to the accident fought the charges he incurred, I went to court to testify.

After the quick settlement, I was offered lunch and a beer by the gentleman, I turned it down, simply on the grounds of impropriety. But I did except a coffee. Over coffee, he explained the long painful journey he went through to come to Canada. It was tearful to be sure. Along the way, he lost his wife to illness, but still persevered, while caring for his sons.

He routes for the home team, espouses the very core of Canadian values, and would take up arms to defend this land, without hesitation. Even if it meant standing against his own countrymen.

For the very same reasons I don not believe democracy can be installed, instead of achieved. I believe that the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here explicitly for a better life and to become part of something bigger and better than that of what they fled.

I'd say that most of them are just looking for a decent, safe and happy life.
 
Liberalman
+1
#9
Immigrants find jobs in a totally depressed economy.

For them it’s all about the almighty dollar.

It’s all about short term pain for long term gain.

It’s all about giving their children all the opportunities.

We can learn from these people’s determination for success.
 
SLM
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

We won the lotto simply being born here.

I agree with that. It's too bad so many squander their winnings eh?
 
petros
+2
#11
My folks grew up in the depression, had even less during the war but when they had their opportunities in the boom years they took advantage of it and made damn sure my brothers, sister and I had everything we needed and then some.

There were conditions that came with the prosperity.

1. I could have anything I wanted as long as I worked for and earned half.
2. My dinner plate had to be empty before I could leave the house to play. If you wasted food you were in deep ****.
3. If I ditched on my education, I ditched on my family and a place to live.
 
CDNBear
+2
#12
Post #1524477 - Re: There’s no such thing as Canadian values (external - login to view) Bad gore0bsessed


Obviously you didn't get the gist of what I was saying did you cubbyabtfetgoreby.

You really should do something about your impeded comprehension issues.
 
gore0bsessed
#13
Yeah obviously because it was such a brilliant post.
"durrrr i don't know why the government owes us jobs"
You are for real?
 
CDNBear
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

Yeah obviously because it was such a brilliant post.
"durrrr i don't know why the government owes us jobs"
You are for real?

Like I said, you completely missed the gist.

Work on that.
 
gore0bsessed
#15
I don't know why the government owes us proper working infrastructure, we only pay taxes and drive the economy ehuerhurhh

hey look this immigrant limo driver can find minimum wage work, why don't these ******* occupiers with college degrees who can't find proper jobs force themselves to be underemployed?
 
CDNBear
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

I don't know why the government owes us proper working infrastructure, we only pay taxes and drive the economy ehuerhurhh

I bet the list thing you do actually know, is quite dismal.

But I have to ask, can you point out where I said anything remotely contrary to your silly claim?

Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

hey look this immigrant limo driver can find minimum wage work, why don't these ******* occupiers with college degrees who can't find proper jobs force themselves to be underemployed?

I'm underemployed thanks to successive deregulation by the provincial gov't. But I'm still employed, self employed mind you.

By the way, a limo driver, gets paid fairly well. Especial if he's an O/O.

But feel free to make all the silly assumptions you like. It only further strengthens my assertions.
 
SLM
+3
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

Yeah obviously because it was such a brilliant post.
"durrrr i don't know why the government owes us jobs"
You are for real?

Actually it was.

You need some new glasses. Preferrable the kind that doesn't let you only see what you want to see, but instead see what is actually there.
 
BruSan
+3
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

My folks grew up in the depression, had even less during the war but when they had their opportunities in the boom years they took advantage of it and made damn sure my brothers, sister and I had everything we needed and then some.

There were conditions that came with the prosperity.

1. I could have anything I wanted as long as I worked for and earned half.
2. My dinner plate had to be empty before I could leave the house to play. If you wasted food you were in deep ****.
3. If I ditched on my education, I ditched on my family and a place to live.



BINGO! You've just described the ethic behind the bulk of our upbringings. I for one, have been eternally grateful for my parents and their attempts to pass on their values from having witnessed first hand all that man can screw up!

Strange to say; but contrary to common beliefs their generation taught me to "judge the books by their content and not the dust covers".

Quote: Originally Posted by gore0bsessedView Post

I don't know why the government owes us proper working infrastructure, we only pay taxes and drive the economy ehuerhurhh

hey look this immigrant limo driver can find minimum wage work, why don't these ******* occupiers with college degrees who can't find proper jobs force themselves to be underemployed?

There's a flaw in your assumption you should get ANYTHING in return for your taxes paid. I learned long ago that's a non-starter. I consider every dollar of tax paid a donation to a "mandatory charity" and it tempers the sting more than you can possibly imagine.

Another choice you're faced with; either hold out for that job that recognizes your education or take something less to keep pride intact while looking for that job that recognizes your education. Whichever you choose the scrifice will be tangible and lasting; either: long term loss of pride or maintenance of pride but loss of your allusions.

Canada; "yours to discover".
 
In Between Man
#19
Canada certainly has admirable values, and those values have brightened up the world, but my personal opinion is that America's values (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) are brighter.
 
darkbeaver
#20
Canada,s value is as a resource holding area with thirty five million squatting victims of western pop culture in permanent angst about their hidden identity.
 
Spade
+1
#21
Many Canadian values appear on Boxing Day.

PS
Values constantly evolve; many values of yesterday are simple prejudices.
 
Omicron
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

We won the lotto simply being born here.

For me it's a mixed-emotion dilemma.

On one hand I want to see every China-man have a job. On the other hand I know there are only enough resources to support 1.5 billion people at middle-class levels. On the third hand I go stark raving bananas how my fellow citizens let International Capitalists (IC's) rig things so that both Chinese and Canadians get screwed in the end, with the IC's waltzing off to do something like purchase New Zealand, protected by an army of robots invented by researchers paid for by taxpayers. It's nuts. We're letting others use our own money against us. Canada is the best country on the planet, our ancestors fought mosquitoes and ice to get it, and it is being pissed away.

I think the problem is, there are too many leaders who are not real leaders. They are Harvard-MBA dork-holes hungry for the status and percs, but real leaders don't care about the status and percs which followers will bestow upon them for doing a good job. (Well... they sort of do... if they have a family to care for, they will be greatfull.)

If the leaders of Wall Street were real leaders and not Lucifer-dick-sucking tyrants, we would not have had a financial collapse.

So... I was thinking...

US military research has been testing a sort of combination isolation-tank artificial-reality chamber, to help victims of PTSD get over it.

It's based on findings that if a person can re-experience, and re-experience, and re-experience again the event(s) triggering their PTSD, then if the situation is sound and if that situation has *some* modicum of stability, then they can get a grip on it and get back their control. The idea is to re-play into the vet's eyes and ears all the stuff that was too much for a human brain, under circumstances controlled enough for the vet to re-attach their grip.

What if we used that same technology to send bad-leader wannabe's through an artificial reality of thinking they have acquired all the power and done all the damage it takes to satisfy their egos, such that on the side we can get on with organizing a livable planet?

If done right, I think we can handle even 12 billion people at something like a livable standard, and I think we would be able to push for things like igniting Jupiter into a star in order to open up more planets. From there it would be Saturn. And from there, it would be the stars.

Seriously... we're humans... we can do anything when shaken free of the monkey of evil.
 
taxslave
+2
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Post #1524477 - Re: There’s no such thing as Canadian values (external - login to view) Bad gore0bsessed


Obviously you didn't get the gist of what I was saying did you cubbyabtfetgoreby.

You really should do something about your impeded comprehension issues.

I wondered what moron could give that a neg.
 
Omicron
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I wondered what moron could give that a neg.

Muther-f*ck... is CDNBear still using that same stupid rolling marble-head?

It is so clear why Jesus said that His Father's house has many rooms.
 
CDNBear
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by OmicronView Post

Muther-f*ck... is CDNBear still using that same stupid rolling marble-head?

It is so clear why Jesus said that His Father's house has many rooms.

Merry Christmas Omicron.
 
Kreskin
#26
Our values are a mature social population, thus not having politicians that need political theatre to grandstand about:

immigration
family values
taxation
healthcare
sex
 
JLM
+1
#27
Beaver pelts used to be pretty valuable!
 
Cliffy
+2
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Beaver pelts used to be pretty valuable!

Still are for most young men, although I understand that shaved beaver is more in fashion these days.
 
CDNBear
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Beaver pelts used to be pretty valuable!

For Christmas SCB ordered me two beaver pelts, to finish the cuffs and hoods of a couple anoraks we made. They have a market value of just over $200/CDN a piece. She didn't pay that mind you. But yes, they aren't worth the same as they used to be.
 
JLM
+1
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

For Christmas SCB ordered me two beaver pelts, to finish the cuffs and hoods of a couple anoraks we made. They have a market value of just over $200/CDN a piece. She didn't pay that mind you. But yes, they aren't worth the same as they used to be.

Yep, there's some idiots who think wearing fur isn't nice.............................but do you see them going barefoot?!!!!!!!!!
 

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