There’s no such thing as Canadian values


Machjo
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I disagree obviously. I wonder if this guy has ever traveled. I think secular ideas like democracy, equality, justice and tolerance are values, but not this guy. We didn't invent them, but Canadians do refine them in a unique way. Maybe he means values are morals. Could be all semantics. But he is very elitist.

I would disagree with the idea that Canada doesn't try to assimilate immigrants, of course we do, but we do it in our own way. If you're from the state of Punjab in India, you're no longer surrounded by India, you have to act Canadian, because when you go back, your friends notice a difference in you accent and behaviour.

When says,

The classic example is the debate over the Sikh Mountie who asked for permission to wear a turban instead of the
traditional Stetson. While the idea made assimilationists want to chew leather, they failed to understand that the whole point of
permitting the turban was to integrate the Sikh community into one of Canada’s most visible and important institutions. The
alternative — banning the turban — would have the perverse effect of alienating the Sikh community from the national police force,
contributing to the very cultural isolation that assimilationists claim to abhor.

Like most simple people Potter sees groups he doesn't understand as a unified, homogenous whole. Many people from India approve of wearing the turban privately, but not as part of the national police force. They want a secular Canada too and fewer religious symbols shown in public as their own, or previous country has had lethal sectarian violence.

Then he uses the example of the Muslim child in kindergarten who is permitted to wear noise reducing device so she doesn't have to listen to music. That teachers allowed this shows how pathetic they are.



There (external - login to view)


There’s no such thing as Canadian values







By Andrew Potter, The Ottawa Citizen December 22, 2011




(external - login to view)

One of the most enduring misconceptions about Canada's immigration policy is the idea that, ever since the eary '70s, Canada has styled itself as a 'mosaic' that encourages immigrants to maintian their old values and tradtions.

Photograph by: Chris Mikukla, The Ottawa Citizen




It would be a lot easier to debate the tough cases of Canadian multiculturalism if people understood how the system actually works. That includes everyone from taxi drivers and barbers to those who spend their time trolling the comment boards of political blogs or loitering around the virtual water-coolers of social media. It includes radio and television hosts, editorialists and pundits. And it also includes the Citizenship and Immigration minister himself, Jason Kenney, who last week announced that henceforward, anyone who takes the oath of citizenship must do so unveiled and uncovered.

Announcing the new policy in Montreal, Kenney said that it is “a matter of pure principle, which lies at the heart of our identity and values with respect to openness and equality.” The citizenship ceremony, he went on, “defines who we are as Canadians including our mutual responsibilities to one another and a shared commitment to values that are rooted in our history.”

For conservatives, a Canadian immigration minister using words like “we” and “our” and making forceful references to “shared values” is like the scene in A Fish Called Wanda where Kevin Kline seduces Jamie Lee Curtis with his cannonball Italian: you could hear the moans of ecstasy of the right-wing pundits from Tofino to Torbay.

For the rest of us, it is another lost opportunity for our leaders to educate Canadians about how their country functions, what holds it together, and how we can think about how to reasonably accommodate newcomers. Because here’s the plain truth: Canadians don’t have shared values. We never have, and we never will. But that’s not a problem, because the ongoing cohesion of Canadian society is not seriously threatened by deep pluralism. If it was, we would never have got past the sectarian, linguistic, and cultural divides of the 19th century.

Canada is a liberal democracy, and like similar societies, it is designed to allow us to get along despite widespread and non-negotiable disagreements over values — that is, over how people should live their lives. Our political institutions, underwritten by constitutional declarations such as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, don’t assume that citizens have shared values. Instead, they work by providing a framework that is neutral with respect to controversial questions of value. This neutrality is what underwrites our freedoms of expression, of religion, and of association. It is also what motivated a young Pierre Trudeau to declare that the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation, and which inevitably led to homosexuals winning the right to marry.
What does this have to do with immigration?

One of the most enduring misconceptions about Canada’s immigration policy is the idea that, ever since the early ’70s, Canada has styled itself as a “mosaic” that encourages immigrants to maintain their old values and traditions. This has outraged those who believe that the only way to save Canadian society is to force immigrants to “assimilate,” that is, to adopt our notional shared values. But this is a false dichotomy. Canada certainly does not try to assimilate immigrants, but we don’t offer a mosaic either. Rather, the institutions and policies we have designed are aimed at the middle path of successful integration: allowing newcomers to keep as much of their cultural traditions as possible, while providing the means for their full participation in civic life.

The classic example is the debate over the Sikh Mountie who asked for permission to wear a turban instead of the traditional Stetson. While the idea made assimilationists want to chew leather, they failed to understand that the whole point of permitting the turban was to integrate the Sikh community into one of Canada’s most visible and important institutions. The alternative — banning the turban — would have the perverse effect of alienating the Sikh community from the national police force, contributing to the very cultural isolation that assimilationists claim to abhor.

On the other side there is the case this week of the kindergarten student in Montreal who will be allowed to wear a noise-reducing headset in class, because her Muslim parents say their religious beliefs don’t allow the five-year-old girl to listen to music. The school’s reasoning was that it was a reasonable compromise that would help the girl integrate into the school system, since the alternative would be that her parents would keep her out of school altogether.

This is the underlying structure of every debate of this kind that Canada has had over the years. From kirpans in schools to the use of Shariah in family law, the goal has never been to turn the country into a land of isolated communities. Instead, it has been to find a reasonable accommodation of cultural difference that integrates newcomers into a shared civic space.

This does not mean that such an accommodation can always be found, and people can reasonably disagree over how far is too far. But it does provide a way of thinking about the issue that avoids references to a shared culture and shared set of values that exists only in the minds of xenophobes and politicians on the stump.

Andrew Potter is the Citizen’s managing editor.








It depends on what values you're talking about.

If we're talking about official values expressed via government legislation or resolutions passed by the House, those could be said to be Canadian in an official context. Besides that though, a French Canadian living in Baie St. Paul, an English-Canadian living in Calgary, and the nunnavummiut living in Iqaluit, are likely to hold very different views of Canada.
 
petros
+1
#32
We all share one common value. Pride.
 
taxslave
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yep, there's some idiots who think wearing fur isn't nice.............................but do you see them going barefoot?!!!!!!!!!

No they wear shoes made from petroleum products while protesting the use of fossil fuels.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

We all share one common value. Pride.

I thought pride is a sin?
 
petros
#34
Is it?
 
taxslave
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Is it?

Not sure. Have to ask some one that memorized the bible. I thought it was one of their 7 sins though. Could be confused too.
 
JLM
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

No they wear shoes made from petroleum products while protesting the use of fossil fuels.


Yep, there's those idiots too.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Not sure. Have to ask some one that memorized the bible. I thought it was one of their 7 sins though. Could be confused too.

They say "pride comes before a fall"

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Not sure. Have to ask some one that memorized the bible. I thought it was one of their 7 sins though. Could be confused too.

I'm guessing greed, sloth and jealousy are some of them. That second one is running rampant among those who are condemning seniors 'cuz they don't have a pot to piss in! (Maybe if a guy was compassionate he wouldn't get that can of worms opened up again on Xmas Day. )
 
BruSan
+1
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yep, there's those idiots too.



They say "pride comes before a fall"



I'm guessing greed, sloth and jealousy are some of them. That second one is running rampant among those who are condemning seniors 'cuz they don't have a pot to piss in! (Maybe if a guy was compassionate he wouldn't get that can of worms opened up again on Xmas Day. )

Aaaargh; now you dun it! Haaar! I'm popping some corn for this.
 
JLM
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by BruSanView Post

Aaaargh; now you dun it! Haaar! I'm popping some corn for this.

Poppin' s OK, as long as you don't go drinkin' any "corn".
 
petros
+2
#39
You pop the corn, I'll fill the hot tub with JELL-O.
 
JLM
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I disagree obviously. I wonder if this guy has ever traveled. I think secular ideas like democracy, equality, justice and tolerance are values, but not this guy. We didn't invent them, but Canadians do refine them in a unique way. Maybe he means values are morals. Could be all semantics. But he is very elitist.






The Canadian thing of most value is the generation born between 1935 and 1955.
 
taxslave
+1
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The Canadian thing of most value is the generation born between 1935 and 1955.

Thanks for including me.(just)
 
gerryh
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The Canadian thing of most value is the generation born between 1935 and 1955.


whats with '35 to '55?
 
Cliffy
+1
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The Canadian thing of most value is the generation born between 1935 and 1955.

Boomers were from 45 - 65. Sorry, but you missed out. You fall into te Old Fart catagory.
 
bobnoorduyn
+1
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Not sure. Have to ask some one that memorized the bible. I thought it was one of their 7 sins though. Could be confused too.

It seems to be a Catholic thing, I asked my dad, who was destined for the priesthood before meeting my mum. I don't think the seven deadlies are specified as such in the bible, besides, all sins are deadly, and all but one are forgivable. I've never seen pride even mentioned as a sin, at least not as it applies to the time before the '80's.
 
JLM
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Thanks for including me.(just)

No worries, for the right people I'd adjust the dates a year or two.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Boomers were from 45 - 65. Sorry, but you missed out. You fall into te Old Fart catagory.

I'd buy 45-47, boomers were the product of horny guys returning from overseas, and even two years for a hard on to last is stretching it. (NO pun intended)

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

whats with '35 to '55?

Little tongue in cheek here Gerry, with quite a bit of truth included. Merry Xmas to you and yours.

Quote: Originally Posted by bobnoorduynView Post

It seems to be a Catholic thing, I asked my dad, who was destined for the priesthood before meeting my mum. I don't think the seven deadlies are specified as such in the bible, besides, all sins are deadly, and all but one are forgivable. I've never seen pride even mentioned as a sin, at least not as it applies to the time before the '80's.



wrath (external - login to view), greed (external - login to view), sloth (external - login to view), pride (external - login to view), lust (external - login to view), envy (external - login to view), and gluttony (external - login to view).
 
Cliffy
+2
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Merry Xmas to you and yours.

wrath (external - login to view), greed (external - login to view), sloth (external - login to view), pride (external - login to view), lust (external - login to view), envy (external - login to view), and gluttony (external - login to view).

We will all need to go to confession tomorrow after today's over indulgences. Bring on the Plum Pudding!
 
BruSan
#47
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

We will all need to go to confession tomorrow after today's over indulgences. Bring on the Plum Pudding!

While the pudding itself can have kick; it's that rum sauce that has me "lusting"!
 
SLM
+1
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

The Canadian thing of most value is the generation born between 1935 and 1955.



What?!?! We've been over this already! '68 was a very good year!!!

 
JLM
+1
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post



What?!?! We've been over this already! '68 was a very good year!!!

Ooooooooooooooh you're just a kid! Sorry if I was insulting, I was actually just putting in a "plug" for us dinosaurs, as we've taken a few hits lately.
 
SLM
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Ooooooooooooooh you're just a kid! Sorry if I was insulting, I was actually just putting in a "plug" for us dinosaurs, as we've taken a few hits lately.

That's ok. Lol. Just pointing out that there are a few "gems" post-1955.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

We won the lotto simply being born here.

Like I read a while back, no one asked to be born, you do what you can when you arrive. Luck plays a part, but we have a culture developed over centuries that permits success of a large group. We're not the only good country to live in on Earth. But I don't think life is that random.
 
damngrumpy
#52
What are Canadian values? First of all they are part of the country is one way or another.
The Mountie uniform thing is a prime example. What is the difference in the Turban as to
the Indian braids? Before people jump up and down, Indian braids are a part of the over
all uniform, have been since the beginning. There we something like 20 or 25 North West
Mounted Police that were natives. In fact from the pill box hat in the beginning, to the now
modern force there have been nearly two dozen changes i believe in the uniform.
The point I am making is values and traditions are adopted, adapted and changed over
time, because like any modern nation they are part of the living mosaic we call Canada.
To many people become entrenched in the belief we can't change anything. Well if that
were the case, we would still have slavery in North America and that is no longer the case.
I for one think we have a pretty good country over all and we do get along for the most part.
It seems we see a generational change all the time. All the people who came here a
hundred years ago would be dismayed to see how well we have done. By the time the
third generation in any community takes over the old ways are part of the past. And that
is again because a country, its traditions, and values are as alive as the people living here,
and that is a good thing, it usually means we have made some progress. Oh there are a
few people who want to live in the past and we pass them by, that is life.
For some the the only cure for change is death and the rest move on.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

It depends on what values you're talking about.

If we're talking about official values expressed via government legislation or resolutions passed by the House, those could be said to be Canadian in an official context. Besides that though, a French Canadian living in Baie St. Paul, an English-Canadian living in Calgary, and the nunnavummiut living in Iqaluit, are likely to hold very different views of Canada.

You really notice Canadian values if you leave Canada and go to Asia, Africa or Europe where values are very different from ours and that Canadians of all types have similar ideas that are unknown in those places. What we talk about is only done in Canada. Do they think or talk about building bases in the Arctic in Italy or Iran? Not much. We have unique issues to deal with in a unique country. And our values have a wide range too. But people in Kenya have no idea or care about them.
 
CDNBear
+1
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

You really notice Canadian values if you leave Canada and go to Asia, Africa or Europe where values are very different from ours and that Canadians of all types have similar ideas that are unknown in those places.

You really should get out and visit those places. You might actually be surprised as to how many true values, we actually share.

Quote:

What we talk about is only done in Canada.

BS.
Quote:

Do they think or talk about building bases in the Arctic in Italy or Iran? Not much.

That might have something to do with those places not having a specific claim to that region. Duh.
Quote:

We have unique issues to deal with in a unique country.

And so do they. Why aren't we building bases in disputed regions affect those regions you mentioned?
Quote:

And our values have a wide range too.

So do their's.
Quote:

But people in Kenya have no idea or care about them.

True, except the important ones we share.
Last edited by CDNBear; Dec 28th, 2011 at 06:47 AM..
 
mentalfloss
#55
We're an extension of the United States, so we put too much value on money and fiscal matters.
 
CDNBear
+2
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

We're an extension of the United States, so we put too much value on money and fiscal matters.

Speak for yourself.
Last edited by CDNBear; Dec 28th, 2011 at 07:26 AM..
 
taxslave
+2
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post



What?!?! We've been over this already! '68 was a very good year!!!

For wine. And muscle cars. and 16 year old girls.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

We're an extension of the United States, so we put too much value on money and fiscal matters.

You cannot put too much value on fiscal matters. They are what finances the social programs you value so much. That is why the NDP has traditionally been such poor governments, no concept of where the money comes from. Just how to spend it.
Are you aware of the concept of First Dollar? Simply put it states that the only new money in the country is produced by resource industries. All the rest of the economy is just recycling these dollars.
 
mentalfloss
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

That is why the NDP has traditionally been such poor governments, no concept of where the money comes from. Just how to spend it.

The NDP have never been at the helm of Canadian government so this is a false statement in the context of Canadian values.

Also, if you're going by a historical scoreboard, the worst fiscal offenders are Conservatives.

But none of this makes a difference in the grand scheme of things where we ignore the resolution of social matters in favour of fiscal matters. The current situation is a perfect example as our focus is now strictly on the economy (external - login to view).
 
JLM
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

For wine. And muscle cars. and 16 year old girls.



Are you aware of the concept of First Dollar? Simply put it states that the only new money in the country is produced by resource industries. All the rest of the economy is just recycling these dollars.

Or as I've been saying for many years the only ways of generating money are to mine something or kill something.
 
CDNBear
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

The NDP have never been at the helm of Canadian government so this is a false statement in the context of Canadian values.

Wow, you sure love your spin.

Careful mentalfloss, your party affiliation is showing.
 

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