Britain lone holdout in new Europe deal

Machjo

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Britain lone holdout in new Europe deal - Business - CBC News

There are a few things I like about the new deal, among which include:

Europe's 'fiscal compact'

The key points of Europe's new financial treaty include:
  • Countries must amend their constitutions to include a balanced budget provision.
  • A balanced budget will be considered a structural deficit of no more than 0.5 per cent of GDP.
  • Any country that runs a deficit larger than three per cent of its GDP will face sanctions.
  • 17 eurozone countries and some EU nations to contribute €200 billion to IMF.


Actually, I'd love an amendment to the Canadian Constitution to include a balanced-budget provision with clearly defined limits to government spending.

Certainly a stronger Union is bound to come out of this in the long term.

And as for the UK, I'm getting the impression that maybe it would be better off to withdraw its membership from the EU and focus on strengthening its ties to the Commonwealth instead. As the EU becomes ever more integrated, being a back-seat member will become increasingly pointless.
 

Machjo

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They could always join the Nor Am Union and be better off.

Perhaps, once a Nor Am Union is formally established. In the mean time, maybe a strenghening of the union of the Commonwealth nations?

But I'll still say that amending the constitutions to include a balanced budget provision would be a very good idea.

Maybe with a minimum allowable in the Constitution being a 0.5% of GDP structural deficit. Though personally I'd make it 0%, but heck, 0.5% would be a good start.
 

petros

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Perhaps, once a Nor Am Union is formally established.
All that remains is Nor Am I.D. card and a common currency and it's just about complete.

If Iceland is already thinking using our currency may as well get the UK on board too.
 

Machjo

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All that remains is Nor Am I.D. card and a common currency and it's just about complete.

If Iceland is already thinking using our currency may as well get the UK on board too.

The UK will not adopt our currency any time in the forseeable future unless there shoudl be a major change in their feelings about their currency. They have a strong emotional attachment to their currency there it woudl seem, and likewise to near-total sovereignty at all costs.

As for the North American Union, we're not there yet, but it would be a good thing in principle at least.

Maybe a North Atlantic Union including the UK?
 

Blackleaf

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The UK will not adopt our currency any time in the forseeable future unless there shoudl be a major change in their feelings about their currency.

What about Canada and the United States adopting the Pound?
 

Cannuck

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What about Canada and the United States adopting the Pound?

I will let some of the American posters here speak for Americans but as for Canada, why would a thriving, growing and "the future is bright" country like Canada adopt the currency of a has been (and I mean no disrespect when I use that term)?
 

Machjo

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What about Canada and the United States adopting the Pound?

I'd be for a shared currency, but not so much in favour of one country adopting another country's currency. Looking at it that way, once the Eurozone issue calms down, I'd be in favour of joining the Eurozone if they accepted us on the grounds that Canada too would have an equal say in the management of that currency. What voice would Canada have in the pund, or the UK in the Canadian dollar?

I will let some of the American posters here speak for Americans but as for Canada, why would a thriving, growing and "the future is bright" country like Canada adopt the currency of a has been (and I mean no disrespect when I use that term)?

The UK still has potential. And let's not be so arrogant. Great nations have fallen quickly.
 

Blackleaf

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I will let some of the American posters here speak for Americans but as for Canada, why would a thriving, growing and "the future is bright" country like Canada adopt the currency of a has been (and I mean no disrespect when I use that term)?

Britain is not a has-been. It is the world's fifth largest economy, which is undergoing stagnant growth along with almost every other major Western economy (Canada is an unusual exception) and, before the recent recession, was the only G8 member to not experience a recession since 1997 (its economy would have grown faster over the years had Brussels red tape and bureaucracy not had a stranglehold on its growth). Its population is twice the size of Canada's and it is growing rapidly - it is on course to overtake Germany as the largest population in Western Europe. Despite the recent cuts in defence Britain's military is still significantly larger than Canada's and Britain remains Europe's leading NATO member.

However, I think it's quite comic when foreigners bang on about the British having "an emotional attachment" to the Pound because of their refusal to join the Euro and even attack us for having the audacity to keep the currency we've had for centuries but when someone says to those same foreigners "Why doesn't your country join the Pound?" those foreigners start saying that they don't want their country to join the Pound or any other currency and that they should keep their traditional currency. So first they attack the British for them keeping their traditional currency yet woe betide anybody tell those very same people to abandon their traditional currency and join the Pound.

I'd be for a shared currency, but not so much in favour of one country adopting another country's currency. Looking at it that way, once the Eurozone issue calms down, I'd be in favour of joining the Eurozone if they accepted us on the grounds that Canada too would have an equal say in the management of that currency. What voice would Canada have in the pund, or the UK in the Canadian dollar?

Canada and the UK are never going to adopt the Euro. Why? Because it's sinking fast and soon will not be with us anymore. It'd be very appropriate indeed for the Euro to finally sink under the waves on 15th April 2012 - the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic.
 

darkbeaver

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What about Canada and the United States adopting the Pound?

Let me see, I think you have less gold to back your pound than we have to back our wallpaper.

I will let some of the American posters here speak for Americans but as for Canada, why would a thriving, growing and "the future is bright" country like Canada adopt the currency of a has been (and I mean no disrespect when I use that term)?

They have nuclear weapons and underseaboots that work. Canada will adopt the global currency or else we will have a series of accidents leading finally to democracy. We don't want that do we?
 

Blackleaf

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Let me see, I think you have less gold to back your pound than we have to back our wallpaper

The Pound has been around since the mid 8th Century and will still be around long after the Euro's gone. The Pound has been in existence for 1,250 years and may continue to go for another 1,250 years. The Euro has been around ten years but may not see another ten years.

So here's what I think:

1) Britain should keep the Pound. It should join neither the Euro nor the dollar not any other currency, for the simple reason that it has no need to.

2) If Canada had to decide on whether to join the Euro or the Pound, the Pound is currently the far safer option to go for.
 

Spade

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I think Britain and Iceland (I keep confusing the two) should adopt the Canadian dollar. I believe we have room for another province or two.
 

Blackleaf

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I think Britain and Iceland (I keep confusing the two) should adopt the Canadian dollar. I believe we have room for another province or two.

Britain has a larger population, economy, military, etc etc than Canada. If anything it would be Canada being a province of Britain.
 

Machjo

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Britain is not a has-been. It is the world's fifth largest economy, which is undergoing stagnant growth along with almost every other major Western economy (Canada is an unusual exception) and, before the recent recession, was the only G8 member to not experience a recession since 1997

I can't disagree with the above.

(its economy would have grown faster over the years had Brussels red tape and bureaucracy not had a stranglehold on its growth).

Pure speculation to which we'll never have the answer because it's never happened.

Its population is twice the size of Canada's and it is growing rapidly - it is on course to overtake Germany as the largest population in Western Europe.

I thought it was closer to 5 times Canada's population. But eitehr way, it certainly gives the UK a big advantage over Canada as long as the population is educated.

Despite the recent cuts in defence Britain's military is still significantly larger than Canada's and Britain remains Europe's leading NATO member.

Those cuts to defence are likely to ctrengthen the UK economy even more, with the current still heavy spending likely holding it back from its full potential.

However, I think it's quite comic when foreigners bang on about the British having "an emotional attachment" to the Pound because of their refusal to join the Euro and even attack us for having the audacity to keep the currency we've had for centuries but when someone says to those same foreigners "Why doesn't your country join the Pound?" those foreigners start saying that they don't want their country to join the Pound or any other currency and that they should keep their traditional currency. So first they attack the British for them keeping their traditional currency yet woe betide anybody tell those very same people to abandon their traditional currency and join the Pound.

Those of us proposing that Canada should share a common currency and those proposing that the UK keep its are not the same people. Canada's population may be small, bu it's still greater than 1.

Canada and the UK are never going to adopt the Euro.

Possibly.

Why? Because it's sinking fast and soon will not be with us anymore. It'd be very appropriate indeed for the Euro to finally sink under the waves on 15th April 2012 - the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic.

The Euro still has its long-term advantages for all its current problems. I see it coming out stronger under a new agreement demanding more fiscal restraint.

The Pound has been around since the mid 8th Century and will still be around long after the Euro's gone. The Pound has been in existence for 1,250 years and may continue to go for another 1,250 years. The Euro has been around ten years but may not see another ten years.

How long a currency's been in existence is irrelevant from an ecomic perspective. it's value there is purely sentimental.

So here's what I think:

1) Britain should keep the Pound. It should join neither the Euro nor the dollar not any other currency, for the simple reason that it has no need to.

There are many things that are not NEEDED but taht are still desirable.

2) If Canada had to decide on whether to join the Euro or the Pound, the Pound is currently the far safer option to go for.

If Canada joined the Pound, it would have no voice in its management, unless of course Britain agreed to share it on equal terms, in which case it would not belong exclusively to the UK anymore. The Euro would allow all participating countries to manage it on equal terms.

I think Britain and Iceland (I keep confusing the two) should adopt the Canadian dollar. I believe we have room for another province or two.

Just to help with your confusion, Iceland would add a few more MPs to the House, the UK would comprise about 80% of the House. though if the UK wanted to become a Canadian province, I'd accept.
 

Spade

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As we don't have rep by pop in Canada or in our provinces, we could give Iceland and Britain only 20% of the House and still have a clean conscience.

PS
When Britain was an empire, were over 95% of its MPs East Asians, Canucks, Africans, etc? I am feeling a little Canadian Empirish this morning; maybe some bad maple syrup?
 

Machjo

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As we don't have rep by pop in Canada or in our provinces, we could give Iceland and Britain only 20% of the House and still have a clean conscience.

PS
When Britain was an empire, were over 95% of its MPs East Asians, Canucks, Africans, etc? I am feeling a little Canadian Empirish this morning; maybe some bad maple syrup?

I see. So instead of moving forward, we have to keep our heads stuck in the past?

Britain has a larger population, economy, military, etc etc than Canada. If anything it would be Canada being a province of Britain.

Either way, the composition of Parliament would be teh same anyway.

Also, seeing that Canada is a fiscally more conservative country, you could say good bye to such a massive British military.. or actually, with 80% or so in the House, it might be the otehr way around with Canada's resources getting ransacked to expand the military along with inflating debt. In spite of that, I'd still see an advantage to union. But I stress, in spite of your strong military, and not because of it. A stong military is also a sign of fiscal liberalism.
 

Niflmir

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Britain gets a lot out of the EU. British citizens get to move around and work on the continent without trouble, SEPA payments benefit everyone (assuming you are paying in Euro, or the English bank does on day currency changes), British citizens get the benefit of EU data privacy protection, free trade, and so on.

I'm sure the rest of Europe would gladly join the pound if Europe would let the ECB control it. I don't think many people care what the currency is called, although the Euro has a certain symbolism to the 3/4 of a billion EU citizens that the Sterling just doesn't have.

If the EU could be really considered a union like the USA, then it would have the largest GDP in the world, and growing.
 

Blackleaf

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Pure speculation to which we'll never have the answer because it's never happened.

Brussels, with all its needless red tape and bureaucracy, has a stranglehold on the British economy. No matter how well the British economy has performed in the almost 40 years that Britain has been in the EU, the chances are it would have grown even better had Britain not been in the EU. The EU does not help the British economy to grow. It hinders British economic growth.

I thought it was closer to 5 times Canada's population. But eitehr way, it certainly gives the UK a big advantage over Canada as long as the population is educated.

Britain's population is about twice that of Canada's. And, of course, of those universities which are ranked in the world's top ten almost every year, three of them are British (seven are American and none are Canadian). Britain also has four universities in the world's top twenty. Canada has one.

Those cuts to defence are likely to ctrengthen the UK economy even more, with the current still heavy spending likely holding it back from its full potential.

Britain spends only 2.7% of its GDP on defence. It's hardly going to cripple the country's economy.


The Euro still has its long-term advantages for all its current problems. I see it coming out stronger under a new agreement demanding more fiscal restraint.

I see the euro as no longer being with us in the not-too-distant future. It is a doomed currency and Britain was right not to join it.

How long a currency's been in existence is irrelevant from an ecomic perspective. it's value there is purely sentimental.

Rubbish. The pound has survived for over 1,000 years. The euro has been around for a mere ten years and is already doomed, with disastrous economic consequences for those countries stupid enough to adopt it (and I don't believe the doom-mongers who say that Britain's economy will suffer greatly once the euro collapses. Recent research has shown that if the euro collapses, as seems likely, after a short, sharp shock, the British economy will quickly bounce back and grow faster than it is now, and British exports - which are already at a record high - to countries like Germany will start booming).

Eurozone crisis: Death of the euro need not be a disaster | Mail Online

If Canada joined the Pound, it would have no voice in its management, unless of course Britain agreed to share it on equal terms, in which case it would not belong exclusively to the UK anymore. The Euro would allow all participating countries to manage it on equal terms.

Absolute rubbish. The only country which has a voice in the euro's management is Germany. All those countries which were stupid enough to adopt the euro are not able to set interest rates to suit their own economies (as Britain, outside the euro, is thankfully able to do) but instead have their interest rates set by the European Central Bank - interest rates which favour Germany and Germany only.

It would make no difference to Canada whether it joined the pound or the Euro - it would still have its currency controlled by a foreign nation, by either Britain (Bank of England) or Germany (ECB).


Just to help with your confusion, Iceland would add a few more MPs to the House, the UK would comprise about 80% of the House. though if the UK wanted to become a Canadian province, I'd accept.

The British Parliament - which is the largest parliament in the English-speaking world - comprises 650 MPs plus another 786 members of the House of Lords. The Canadian Parliament comprises 308 MPs and 105 senators.

Taking just the MPs into account, 650 + 308 = 958.

Of those 958 MPs, 650 would be British. Which means about 68% of the MPs would be British.

Its bad enough that we have the queen on our money.

It's not Britain's fault you have the world's most popular Head of State on your currency. It's Canada's.

We certainly do not want to use a goofy system of money as well.

I fail to see how a currency which has been around far longer than the euro (which really IS a goofy currency) and the Canadian dollar, which is the fourth most traded currency in the foreign exchange market (the third most traded once the euro collapses) and the third most held reserve currency in global reserves (the second most held in global reserves once the euro collapses) can, in any way, be described as goofy.

Britain gets a lot out of the EU.

No, it doesn't.

I'm sure the rest of Europe would gladly join the pound if Europe would let the ECB control it.

Why should a bank in Germany control the BRITISH pound? What do you you propose next? The Bank of England controlling the Swedish krona? The only country bank which should control the British pound is the Bank of England. If countries want to join the pound they will have to put up with it being controlled by the Bank of England.

I don't think many people care what the currency is called, although the Euro has a certain symbolism to the 3/4 of a billion EU citizens that the Sterling just doesn't have.

Three-quarters of a billion? Of the 27 EU member states, only 17 of them have the euro. The other 10 have kept their own currencies. And those 17 members states have a combined population of almost 332 million.

If the EU could be really considered a union like the USA,

It can't be considered as such a union. It isn't even a country.

t
then it would have the largest GDP in the world, and growing.

The EU's economy isn't growing. It is in recession and it is the world's most sclereotic and snail-like economic region. As for the Eurozone (the 17 of the 27 EU nations which use the euro) its economic growth is forecast to trail way behind that of Britain over the next few years.