The High Cost Of Rescuing Convenient Canadians

[dumpthemonarchy]

Another foolish govt make work project for an agency. If people are foolish enough to live in a political hotspot, and stay when war is close, I say forget them. The fed govt ought to issue a warning when to leave, then people leave on their own dime. The military should be doing studies with taxpayer money on protecting the Arctic instead.

Newsflash: Nothing can stop the layoffs that are coming for the bloated National Defence HQ in Ottawa.

It cost $7000 per head to rescue to convenient dual Canadians in Lebanon in 2006. Most went back to Lebanon as they had not lived in Canada for years so they never paid taxes and had no commitment to here. $1000000000/14000 = $7000



Military ponders how to rescue Canadians overseas - Canada - CBC News



Military ponders how to rescue Canadians overseas


The Canadian Press

Posted: Nov 7, 2011 6:29 PM ET

Last Updated: Nov 7, 2011 9:51 PM ET

Read 41 comments41

The Canadian military is examining new ways to quickly organize evacuation and rescue missions for Canadians in crisis overseas, including new access to ships and aircraft. (Nathan Denette/Canadian Press)




Plucking Canadians out of the world's hot spots is a growing area of concern and study for military planners, who until a few years ago didn't have their own tools or the resources to carry out such missions.

Internal Defence Department documents obtained by The Canadian Press show that in the aftermath of the Libyan crisis, the Canadian military is examining not only its war-fighting skills, but its newly enhanced ability to quickly organize evacuation and rescue missions.

Planners have been quietly taking stock of the world's flash points and considering how to get military forces into those troubled regions, while at the same time smoothly getting civilians out of harm's way.

The evacuation of Canadians and other foreign nationals from Libya last spring, and the massive rescue effort from Lebanon in 2006, has brought a new focus — some would argue a new urgency — to such operations.

The Conservative government took a political hammering last winter with opposition parties expressing outrage over the fact over 200 Canadians hitched a ride out of the Libyan chaos with other countries.
Angst about evacuations

Calls for an examination of the military's capabilities faded as the war to oust dictator Moammar Gadhafi settled into a bloody stalemate and the Harper government dispatched fighter bombers.

But internally at the Defence Department there has been angst about future evacuations, especially in light of expected budget cuts, suggest the documents obtained under Access to Information.

Among the most worrisome trouble spots is South Korea, where frequent and increasingly violent outbursts from the hermit kingdom in the North have military planners concerned and looking for guidance.

"With over 20,000 Canadian citizens resident in the [Republic of South Korea], in the event of a full-scale crisis [censored] the evacuation efforts required could significantly exceed those of the Lebanon evacuation," said a Nov. 30, 2010 briefing note prepared for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

The note was prepared following an artillery exchange on Nov. 23 where North Korea fired over 170 rounds of artillery across the border into Yeongyeogn Island, which belongs to the south.

"A further North Korean attack or South Korean retaliation cannot be discounted. However, in the event of a military confrontation on the Korean peninsula, Canada would need to consider how best to respond."

'The capacity to be able to reach far with our aircraft is priceless.'—Lt.-Gen. Stuart Beare​

The rescue of over 14,000 dual citizens from Lebanon — something that cost taxpayers almost $100 million — is often cited by planners because of its complexity and uncertainty.

Part of the cost was driven by the fact that Canada had to arrange for charter ships and planes.
The commander of the country's overseas forces, Lt.-Gen. Stuart Beare, said the arrival of four giant C-17 cargo planes into the air force inventory has given the military a capability it didn't have during the Lebanon crisis, when Israel and Hezbollah traded blows for several weeks in the summer of 2006.

"The capacity to be able to reach far with our aircraft is priceless," Beare said in a recent interview with The Canadian Press.
He said the Canadian Expeditionary Force Command has a baseline — or generic — plan for civilian evacuations around the world. It is tailored to a specific crisis when the need arises.

It is impossible, Beare said, for the military at an operational level to rehearse for every possible scenario.
One of the concerns at the policy level, according to the internal reports, is the possibility of the Canadian military having to fight its way into a region to retrieve civilians.

Beare said such a crisis would strain even the United States, the world's most advanced military power.

 

[earth_as_one]

Does that mean you are against Canadians traveling abroad in general, or just Canadians traveling to places Israel might bomb?

For example these Canadians went to Lebanon for a summer vacation:

Canadian casualties of the 'open war'
July 26, 2006

The "open war" in Lebanon and Israel has hit close to home. So far, nine Canadians — four of them children — have been killed in the cross-border conflict.

On July 16, 2006, an Israeli air raid hit Aitaroun, a Lebanese town bordering Israel, killing seven Canadians, including four children. Three were seriously wounded, one of whom later succumbed to his injuries. The blasts levelled a house nearby where the Canadians had been hiding for three days, crushing the victims, according to reports from Lebanon. Israel has acknowledged carrying out the attack...

Here's what we know about the Canadians who lost their lives:
Ali el-Akhras

The father of four, 36, was seriously wounded after the blasts hit Lebanon. He was reported in critical condition in a Lebanese hospital, but just after noon on July 17, 2006, reporters were told he died. His wife, Amira el-Akhras, and their children, ages one, four, six and eight, were killed during the air raid.
Ali el-Akhras and his family had accompanied his uncle, also named Ali, and aunt Saada el-Akhras on their annual summer vacation to Lebanon. In Montreal, el-Akhras ran a pharmacy in Montreal's Snowdon district. He was a well-established and respected member of the community, his friend Ahmad Mustafa told CBC News.
Amira el-Akhras

The 23-year-old wife of Ali el-Akhras died along with their four children, ages one, four, six and eight, during the air raid. Her husband, Ali, later died of blast-related injuries.
The el-Akhras children: Saja, Zeinab, Ahmad and Salam

The four children of Ali el-Akhras and Amira el-Akhras — Saja, 8, Zeinab, 6, Ahmad, 4 and Salam, 1 — were killed when the border village of Aitaroun was struck.
Ali el-Akhras

The uncle of Ali el-Akhras, who bears the same name, was killed during the air raid. He came to Montreal from Lebanon 15 years ago, but visited Lebanon every year with his wife, Saada el-Akhras, who was seriously injured during the blasts.
Saada el-Akhras

The wife of Ali el-Akhras was one of three Canadians seriously injured during the air raid.



CBC News In Depth: Middle East in Crisis

 

[CDNBear]

Does that mean you are against Canadians traveling abroad in general, or just Canadians traveling to places Israel might bomb?

Your usual demonization of Israel aside, no. It would be people who live abroad, and call Canada only when they need Canada.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Does that mean you are against Canadians traveling abroad in general, or just Canadians traveling to places Israel might bomb?

For example these Canadians went to Lebanon for a summer vacation:

Canadian casualties of the 'open war'
July 26, 2006

The "open war" in Lebanon and Israel has hit close to home. So far, nine Canadians — four of them children — have been killed in the cross-border conflict.

On July 16, 2006, an Israeli air raid hit Aitaroun, a Lebanese town bordering Israel, killing seven Canadians, including four children. Three were seriously wounded, one of whom later succumbed to his injuries. The blasts levelled a house nearby where the Canadians had been hiding for three days, crushing the victims, according to reports from Lebanon. Israel has acknowledged carrying out the attack...

Here's what we know about the Canadians who lost their lives:
Ali el-Akhras

The father of four, 36, was seriously wounded after the blasts hit Lebanon. He was reported in critical condition in a Lebanese hospital, but just after noon on July 17, 2006, reporters were told he died. His wife, Amira el-Akhras, and their children, ages one, four, six and eight, were killed during the air raid.
Ali el-Akhras and his family had accompanied his uncle, also named Ali, and aunt Saada el-Akhras on their annual summer vacation to Lebanon. In Montreal, el-Akhras ran a pharmacy in Montreal's Snowdon district. He was a well-established and respected member of the community, his friend Ahmad Mustafa told CBC News.
Amira el-Akhras

The 23-year-old wife of Ali el-Akhras died along with their four children, ages one, four, six and eight, during the air raid. Her husband, Ali, later died of blast-related injuries.
The el-Akhras children: Saja, Zeinab, Ahmad and Salam

The four children of Ali el-Akhras and Amira el-Akhras — Saja, 8, Zeinab, 6, Ahmad, 4 and Salam, 1 — were killed when the border village of Aitaroun was struck.
Ali el-Akhras

The uncle of Ali el-Akhras, who bears the same name, was killed during the air raid. He came to Montreal from Lebanon 15 years ago, but visited Lebanon every year with his wife, Saada el-Akhras, who was seriously injured during the blasts.
Saada el-Akhras

The wife of Ali el-Akhras was one of three Canadians seriously injured during the air raid.



CBC News In Depth: Middle East in Crisis

A guy travels to Lebanon every summer, no matter what? Might some people wish to stay home once in a while when war is imminent, just to be safe? Gotta wonder.

Let's spend tons of money on people who live near a war zone instead of health care in Canada. I suppose they feel safe because of the ongoing "peace talks" going on. Despite people being killed weekly in that part of the world. The fed govt approves of this as no one denounces the bogus "peace talks" here. If a war happens quelle surprise, how did that start? We have to save those good, noble, peace loving Canadians.

 

[earth_as_one]

There was no indication in 2006 that war was imminent between Hezbollah and Israel.

Cross-border attacks from southern Lebanon into Israel by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) date as far back as 1968, and followed Israel's forceful occupation of additional Arab territory the previous year; the area became a significant base for attacks following the arrival of the PLO leadership and its Fatah brigade following their 1971 expulsion from Jordan. Starting about this time, increasing demographic tensions related to the Lebanese National Pact, which had divided governmental powers among religious groups throughout the country 30 years previously, began running high and led in part to the Lebanese Civil War (1975–1990). Concurrently, Syria began a 29 year military occupation in 1976. Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon failed to stem the Palestinian attacks, but Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 and forcibly expelled the PLO.[51] Israel withdrew to a borderland buffer zone in southern Lebanon, held with the aid of proxy militants in the South Lebanon Army (SLA).[52] The invasion however, also led to the conception of a new Shi'a militant group, which in 1985, established itself politically under the name Hezbollah, and declared an armed struggle to end the Israeli occupation of Lebanese territory.[53][54] When the Lebanese civil war ended and other warring factions agreed to disarm, both Hezbollah and the SLA refused. Ten years later, Israel withdrew from South Lebanon to the UN-designated and internationally recognized Blue Line border in 2000.[55]

The withdrawal also led to the immediate collapse of the SLA, and Hezbollah took control of the area in rapid succession. Later citing continued Israeli control of the disputed Shebaa farms region and the internment of Lebanese prisoners in Israel, Hezbollah intensified its cross-border attacks, and used the tactic of seizing soldiers from Israel as leverage for a prisoner exchange in 2004.[56][dead link][57]
[edit] Abduction efforts in the year prior to conflict

In June 2005, an Israel Defense Forces paratroop unit operating near the Shebaa Farms engaged three Lebanese it identified as Hezbollah special force members, killing one. Videotapes recovered by the paratroopers contained footage of the three recording detailed accounts of the area and "fooling around".[58]

Over the following 12 months, Hezbollah made three unsuccessful attempts to abduct Israeli soldiers. On 21 November 2005, a number of Hezbollah special forces attempted to attack an Israeli outpost in Ghajar, a village straddling the border between Lebanon and the Golan Heights. The outpost had been deserted following an intelligence warning, and three of the Hezbollah militants were killed when Israeli sniper David Markovich shot a rocket-propelled grenade they were carrying, causing it to explode. From his sniper position, Markovich shot and killed a fourth gunman shortly thereafter.[58][59]

2006 Lebanon War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the official Canadian government policy regarding traveling abroad:

The decision to travel is the sole responsibility of the traveller. Travellers are responsible for their own personal safety. The Government of Canada takes the safety and security of Canadians abroad very seriously and provides credible and timely advice in its Travel Reports. In the event of a crisis situation that requires evacuation, the Government of Canada’s policy is to provide safe transportation to the closest safe location. Canada will assist Canadians in leaving a country or a region as a last resort, when all means of commercial or personal transportation have been exhausted. This service is provided on a cost-recovery basis. Onward travel is at the individual’s personal expense. Situations vary from one location to another, and there may be constraints on government resources, which can limit the ability of the Government of Canada to provide assistance, particularly in countries or regions where the potential for violent conflict or political instability are high.

At the time, Israel was holding hundreds of Lebanese POWs as bargaining chips. These POWs were captured by Israel during the 1982-85 Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon.

Israeli

Here is how the UN judged Israel's actions of holding Lebanese POWs indefinitely:

Human rights situation of Lebanese detainees in Israel

Commission on Human Rights resolution 2002/10​

The Commission on Human Rights,

Recalling the report of the Secretary-General on the implementation of Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) of 19 March 1978 (S/2000/460), in particular paragraphs 7, 8, 12, 14, 16, 17, 21 and 48, endorsed by the Security Council (S/PRST/2000/18),

Noting Security Council resolution 1391 (2002) of 28 January 2002, in particular paragraph 11, in which the Council stressed the necessity to provide the Government of Lebanon and the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon with any additional maps and records on the location of mines,

Gravely concerned at the persistent violation by Israel of the principles of international law regarding the protection of human rights, in particular those contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as well as the grave violation of the relevant provisions of international humanitarian law contained in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, and the Additional Protocols thereto,

Censuring breaches by Israel of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Lebanon,

Hoping that the efforts to implement the Security Council resolutions on the occupied Arab territories, including resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 and 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973, and to achieve peace in the Middle East will put an end to the violations of human rights being committed by Israel and that the peace negotiations will be resumed and conducted with a view to reaching a just and comprehensive peace in the region,

Gravely concerned about the hundreds of thousands of landmines left behind by Israel in southern Lebanon, which have so far caused hundreds of deaths and injuries to civilians, including women and children,

Deploring the failure of the Government of Israel to submit all the maps showing the deployment of those landmines,

Condemning the persistent detention, ill-treatment and torture by Israel of many Lebanese civilians who were abducted and detained in Lebanon and subsequently transferred to prisons in Israel,

Expressing its indignation at the ruling handed down on 4 March 1998 by the Supreme Court of Israel permitting the Israeli authorities to retain Lebanese detainees in Israeli prisons without trial and to hold them as hostages and for bargaining purposes and the recent renewal of their incommunicado detention, which constitutes a flagrant violation of the principles of human rights,

Reaffirming its resolution 2001/10 of 18 April 2001, and expressing its deep regret at the failure of the Government of Israel to implement that resolution fully,

1. Calls upon the Government of Israel to comply with the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and the Additional Protocols thereto;

2. Also calls upon the Government of Israel to refrain from holding the detained Lebanese citizens incarcerated in its prisons as hostages for bargaining purposes and to release them immediately, in compliance with all the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and other provisions of international law;

3. Affirms the obligation of Israel to commit itself to allowing the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit the detainees regularly, as well as to allowing other international humanitarian organizations to do so and to verify their sanitary and humanitarian conditions and, in particular, the circumstances of their detention;

4. Calls upon the Government of Israel to submit to the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon all the maps of the landmine fields laid throughout the civilian villages, fields and farms, causing casualties among civilians, including children and women, and obstructing the resumption of normal life in the area;

5. Requests the Secretary-General:

• 
  (a) To bring the present resolution to the attention of the Government of Israel and to call upon it to comply with its provisions;
  
  (b) To report to the General Assembly at its fifty-seventh session and to the Commission at its fifty-ninth session on the results of his efforts in this regard;
  

6. Decides to continue its consideration of the situation of the Lebanese detainees at its fifty-ninth session.

47th meeting
19 April 2002

 

[taxslave]

I think this is going to require an overhaul of our lax citizen ship laws. One would reasonable expect that people from other countries immigrate here because they wish to be Canadians. Clearly this is not always the case. Perhaps immigrants would have to spend 75% of the year in Canada for at least ten years to maintain citizenship?

 

[earth_as_one]

Perhaps all Canadians should have equal rights and freedoms?

 

[Nuggler]

A very good friend of ours (Christian Lebanese) as opposed to Allah Akbar type has lived in Canada since she was 3. Her parents live here as well, and they are all Canadian citizens.

But, she still has family in Lebanon, and is now over there visiting. Her first, and will be her only trip as her grandparents are old and infirm, and (believe it or not), have no desire to come to Canada.

She knows the risks, but wants to see her family.

If the feces hits the air conditioning while she is there, it would be nice to see SOME EFFORT made to get people out. People who are Canadian by choice, who have worked and paid taxes here for years, have contributed to society, and are not terrorists, nor indeed, "convenient Canadians".

Should govt. channel millions to this end.? Wiser folks than I are going to have to make that decision. There are lots of places needing millions here in Canada - a fact conveniently overlooked by our lords and masters of every political stripe (as in skunk)

 

[DurkaDurka]

A very good friend of ours (Christian Lebanese) as opposed to Allah Akbar type has lived in Canada since she was 3. Her parents live here as well, and they are all Canadian citizens.

But, she still has family in Lebanon, and is now over there visiting. Her first, and will be her only trip as her grandparents are old and infirm, and (believe it or not), have no desire to come to Canada.

She knows the risks, but wants to see her family.

If the feces hits the air conditioning while she is there, it would be nice to see SOME EFFORT made to get people out. People who are Canadian by choice, who have worked and paid taxes here for years, have contributed to society, and are not terrorists, nor indeed, "convenient Canadians".

Should govt. channel millions to this end.? Wiser folks than I are going to have to make that decision. There are lots of places needing millions here in Canada - a fact conveniently overlooked by our lords and masters of every political stripe (as in skunk)

Obviously, your friend is not what you would call a citizen of convenience and she would deserve every effort of the government in extricating her from a war zone, if there was to be one.

 

[earth_as_one]

I'm against putting Canadian citizen and Canadian civil servant lives at risk by playing 20 questions in the middle of a war zone. Prove you are a Canadian citizen, with a valid Canadian passport or some other means and you get help.

If the problem is "citizens of convenience" as you people here like to demonize Canadian doctors, teachers, engineers, missionaries... who serve over seas, then the time to determine who is and isn't a "real" Canadian is at the time they get a passport.

 

[JLM]

Another foolish govt make work project for an agency. If people are foolish enough to live in a political hotspot, and stay when war is close, I say forget them. The fed govt ought to issue a warning when to leave, then people leave on their own dime. The military should be doing studies with taxpayer money on protecting the Arctic instead.

A very long post on an oversimplified problem and solution!

 

[CDNBear]

I'm against putting Canadian citizen and Canadian civil servant lives at risk by playing 20 questions in the middle of a war zone.

I'll ignore your other demonization of Israel post, for the time being...

It's a matter of two questions...

When was the last time you were in Canada?

Why is that?

If the problem is "citizens of convenience" as you people here like to demonize Canadian doctors, teachers, engineers, missionaries... who serve over seas, then the time to determine who is and isn't a "real" Canadian is at the time they get a passport.

Who's demonizing anyone in your list?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

I'm against putting Canadian citizen and Canadian civil servant lives at risk by playing 20 questions in the middle of a war zone. Prove you are a Canadian citizen, with a valid Canadian passport or some other means and you get help.

If the problem is "citizens of convenience" as you people here like to demonize Canadian doctors, teachers, engineers, missionaries... who serve over seas, then the time to determine who is and isn't a "real" Canadian is at the time they get a passport.

The fact is, you cannot become a Canadian, cannot feel like a Canadian unless you live in Canada for a number of years. I lived in Asia for a few years and Canada fades away because it is not in the local media, no one talks about it or cares about it. Live outside Canada for extended periods and you lose touch. And if you are an immigrant, that goes double.

There is spectrum here, those who have been born and raised in the country, are less likely to be citizens of convenience. Although nowadays, with so many ethnic enclaves, and extraordinarily high immigration for the last 20 years, the chances of this ocurring will grow. Which gave us the Toronto 18. People have careers outside Canada, that's a fact, and some may never come back home, that occurs.

When it comes to getting a passport, I'm in favour of raising it to 7-10 years residency in Canada. The three years now is a joke. We are debasing one of the most valuable citizenships in the world. And for what? People who want to become Canadians will willingly stay for 7-10 years. Becoming a Canadian requires commitment.

 

[The Old Medic]

I think this is going to require an overhaul of our lax citizen ship laws. One would reasonable expect that people from other countries immigrate here because they wish to be Canadians. Clearly this is not always the case. Perhaps immigrants would have to spend 75% of the year in Canada for at least ten years to maintain citizenship?

A citizen is a citizen. if you place special requirements on one class of citizen, then you have instituted a form of 2nd class citizenship.

Remember, what you do to someone else, can easily be turned around and done in another way to you.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

A citizen is a citizen. if you place special requirements on one class of citizen, then you have instituted a form of 2nd class citizenship.

Remember, what you do to someone else, can easily be turned around and done in another way to you.

Until landed residents become immigrants, they can be deported. And if they lie beforehand in their info about becoming a Canadian, they can be deported. People born here cannot be deported.

Once immigrants become Canadians, they are not second class citizens, but we cannot give citizenship away cheaply and quickly like we are now. I would say they should have to reside in Canada 300 days a year for 7-10 years to get citizenship.

 

[relic]

How about this,if the Govt sends you somewhere,and things get scary then the Govt should get you out.If you go there on your own,then you get your own a$$ out.Every day there's some goomer or group that wants the government,be it federal,provincial or whatever to bail their a$$ out. Save my job,make my internet cheaper,the list is endless,and the more helpless people get the more power the government has.

 

[JLM]

How about this,if the Govt sends you somewhere,and things get scary then the Govt should get you out.If you go there on your own,then you get your own a$$ out.Every day there's some goomer or group that wants the government,be it federal,provincial or whatever to bail their a$$ out. Save my job,make my internet cheaper,the list is endless,and the more helpless people get the more power the government has.

People forget that in practical terms the Gov't is just a figment of everyone's imagination, when it comes to providing finances. The money comes out of OUR pockets, there is no one else, human beings are the only specy on the planet that trade in legal tender. I don't know why some people have such a hard time getting that through their thick skulls.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

How about this,if the Govt sends you somewhere,and things get scary then the Govt should get you out.If you go there on your own,then you get your own a$$ out.Every day there's some goomer or group that wants the government,be it federal,provincial or whatever to bail their a$$ out. Save my job,make my internet cheaper,the list is endless,and the more helpless people get the more power the government has.

Right, isn't so much of it about the money. When one of the many political hotspots in the world gets super hot, leaving suddenly becomes difficult and expensive. Time to be safe.

But, if the govt sends you to a hotspot to work, pays you a salary, then they have a far greater responsibility for your safety because they want you to stay there. The current system seems to make every Canadian citizen abroad some type of employee or ward of the govt, they are not. To say the fed govt is responsible for the safety of all Canadians everywhere in the world is a joke. All the govt management time wasted on this issue could be far better spent patrolling the Arctic with a civilian coast guard. Or health care.

Layoffs, like Christmas, are coming for DND HQ. Get used to it.

 

[earth_as_one]

I would be embarrassed of Canada if during some emergency, countries like Vietnam, Cambodia and Haiti come to the rescue of their citizens while we abandon fellow Canadians.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

I realy doubt a country like Haiti, which abuses its own citizens at home, will rescue them from anywhere. Hattians try to escape from there if they can.

People have to heed warnings, being a world traveling tourist ought not to be a govt supervised activity. Big brother reaching into my pocket to use tax money to "save" people who travel of their free will abroad, is abuse of my income. See, its the Kielburger bros who want to save all the children or adults all the time. Tell the Kielburgers et al to pay for it then.