Who's worse, the rioters or the vigilantes?

[JLM]

I see the family of the kid who admitted his riotous acts on T.V. have been forced from their home as a result of death threats. Typical of the holier than thous who think someone else's crime is much worse than their own. Is this thing getting to be like Topsy?

Teen athlete apologizes for Vancouver riot role - British Columbia - CBC News

 

[petros]

****ing sports fans.

 

[Unforgiven]

What goes around comes around. I expect there are a few people that feel sorry that they helped for that family from their home. Even though the kid is a jerk.

 

[JLM]

What goes around comes around. I expect there are a few people that feel sorry that they helped for that family from their home. Even though the kid is a jerk.

I've been wondering about that kid, coming from a home where there is apparently a fair degree of both wealth and prestige, there's a couple of questions that come to mind..............1: Was the kid brought up with the expectation of being handed every whim, without having to work or take responsibility for anything? or on the other hand, 2: Was the kid raised by a couple of social climbers whose activities precluded the boy from a normal family situation and he was just striking out after being ignored for so long? Regardless I think he may be the product of a dysfunctional home. Not that any of the above should let him off the hook, he needs to learn a serious lesson before he is totally destroyed.

 

[DurkaDurka]

I've been wondering about that kid, coming from a home where there is apparently a fair degree of both wealth and prestige, there's a couple of questions that come to mind..............1: Was the kid brought up with the expectation of being handed every whim, without having to work or take responsibility for anything? or on the other hand, 2: Was the kid raised by a couple of social climbers whose activities precluded the boy from a normal family situation and he was just striking out after being ignored for so long? Regardless I think he may be the product of a dysfunctional home. Not that any of the above should let him off the hook, he needs to learn a serious lesson before he is totally destroyed.

Well, the way the kid said it on TV was something along the line of "I went from being a spectator to a participant". He made a huge mistake and he's going to pay dearly for it. Why do you assume he's the product of a dysfunctional home?

 

[petros]

I've been wondering about that kid, coming from a home where there is apparently a fair degree of both wealth and prestige, there's a couple of questions that come to mind....

Did you think I was bull****ting when I said it was middle class kids that were rioting when you blamed the street types?

Sports Fan Psychology: It's More Than Just a Game

Very few pitiable persons who don’t follow any sports often question the sports fan’s enthusiasm saying, “It’s just a game. What’s the big deal about it?” The fan often ignores the whimsical query, acknowledging his blissful ignorance, nodding in approval and just moving on.

But many psychologists actually wondered, “What’s the big deal?” and have conducted in-depth studies on the psychology of sports fans to learn more about the integral ties between the fans and their team.

The studies came up with surprising results and revealed why it’s not “just a game” for the fans.



Identity

Fans tend to identify themselves with the teams/athletes they root for and consider themselves a part of the team/athlete’s journey.

''Our sports heroes are our warriors,'' Robert Cialdini, a professor of psychology at Arizona State, said about sports fans. ''This is not some light diversion to be enjoyed for its inherent grace and harmony. The self is centrally involved in the outcome of the event.”

“Whoever you root for, represents you.''

When their team/athlete wins, the fans tend to believe it’s their success too, bask in reflected glory (“we won”) and with defeats, they mourn equally (“we lost”).

This newfound identity of the fan not only inspires them, but also instills a sense of loyalty and respect in them.



Self-Esteem

The self-esteem of fans also rises and falls with a game's outcome, with losses affecting their optimism about everything from getting a date to winning at darts, one study showed.

Dr. Daniel Wann, a psychologist at Murray State University in Kentucky, has done several studies showing that an intense interest in a team can buffer people from depression and foster feelings of self-worth.

Edward Hirt of Indiana University has demonstrated that men and women who were diehard fans were much more optimistic about their sex appeal after a victory. They were also more sanguine about their ability to perform well at mental and physical tests, like darts and word games, Dr. Hirt found. When the team lost, that optimism evaporated.



Escapism

Sports allow fans to escape their normal daily life, as well as social inhibitions and express themselves freely by cheering from their teams/athletes, as well as lashing out at rivals.

One theory traces the roots of fan psychology to a primitive time when human beings lived in small tribes, and warriors fighting to protect tribes were true genetic representatives of their people, psychologists claim.

In a modern society, athletes play a similar role for a city in the stylized war on a playing field—as the theory goes. The athlete’s exploits helps reconnect the fans with those intense emotions that tribal warfare did for their ancestors, which the modern society codes and conduct doesn’t allow them.

John Herde, a 65-year-old accountant in Manhattan, has been attending Rangers games since he was a teenager and owns season tickets.

''It's a release,'' he said. ''You can yell and scream and do whatever you like. It's like therapy.''



Eustress [Euphoria+Stress]

Even among non-avid supporters, sport manages to bring about physiological changes, which induce various emotions like euphoria, dejection, and stress.

A study in Georgia has shown, for instance, that testosterone levels in male fans rise markedly after a victory and drop just as sharply after a defeat.

The same pattern has been documented in male animals that fight over a mate: Biologists theorize that mammals may have evolved this way to ensure quick resolutions to conflicts.

Some researchers also believe that eustress is a “severely dangerous” form of addiction.



Sense Of Belonging

Psychologists add that some fans find a sense of belonging and acceptance in the sports that they haven’t been able to find in their life.

“So many of the traditional institutions are beginning to break down, religion and family,” Dr. Wann said. ''The human psyche is the same and something has to take the place of that. Sports fill an important void.''

Michelle Musler, one of the most visible Knicks fans in New York, acknowledges that her 27-year love affair with the team may have had its genesis in loneliness.

“My ex-husband ran away with the lady next door, and I didn't seem to fit into suburbia anymore,'' she said. ''The Knicks gave me a purpose, something to do, a place to go. As a fan, I guess, there is a sense of belonging. That you are a part of something.''



While non-sports fans watch sports for mere entertainment and finer nuances of the technicalities of the sport, for the fans, it is a much more complex experience which the others find it hard to relate to.

It isn’t just a game—but I guess some people will never get it.

 

[JLM]

Well, the way the kid said it on TV was something along the line of "I went from being a spectator to a participant". He made a huge mistake and he's going to pay dearly for it. Why do you assume he's the product of a dysfunctional home?[/QUOTE]

I'm not assuming anything, just stated I think it's a possibility, I'm looking for answers, not providing solutions! :smile:

 

[Unforgiven]

I've been wondering about that kid, coming from a home where there is apparently a fair degree of both wealth and prestige, there's a couple of questions that come to mind..............1: Was the kid brought up with the expectation of being handed every whim, without having to work or take responsibility for anything? or on the other hand, 2: Was the kid raised by a couple of social climbers whose activities precluded the boy from a normal family situation and he was just striking out after being ignored for so long? Regardless I think he may be the product of a dysfunctional home. Not that any of the above should let him off the hook, he needs to learn a serious lesson before he is totally destroyed.

You make a lot of assumptions there. It doesn't have to be black and white as often is the case with life it could be more of a grey area in upbringing that would allow for a kid like that to consider and attempt to light a police car on fire.

 

[JLM]

Did you think I was bull****ting when I said it was middle class kids that were rioting when you blamed the street types?

I don't recall assigning ther blame solely to street types, in fact I'd be totally amazed if that was the case. Sh*t like this crosses all social and financial categories. As a matter of fact kids from the higher end of the social/economic scale are often brain washed from birth that they have special entitlements, both materialistic & behaviourial.

You make a lot of assumptions there. It doesn't have to be black and white as often is the case with life it could be more of a grey area in upbringing that would allow for a kid like that to consider and attempt to light a police car on fire.

I'm not assuming anything, just questioning various possibilities!

 

[Tonington]

I'm not assuming anything, just questioning various possibilities!

When you say regardless of the answers to two questions you posed (unanswered questions), that you think someone is the product of a dysfunctional family, that is assuming...you are supposing without proof. That is an assumption.

You may be right, but it's probably not really relevant. It's herd effect plain and simple. Some people have enough conscience to stop themselves from joining in with retarded anarchists, others not so much.

And for the thread, I don't think either one is worse. They're both pretty much scum.

 

[JLM]

When you say regardless of the answers to two questions you posed (unanswered questions), that you think someone is the product of a dysfunctional family, that is assuming...you are supposing without proof. That is an assumption.

You may be right, but it's probably not really relevant. It's herd effect plain and simple. Some people have enough conscience to stop themselves from joining in with retarded anarchists, others not so much.

And for the thread, I don't think either one is worse. They're both pretty much scum.

I guess you didn't read what I said, I said may be the product..........................

 

[DurkaDurka]

I guess you didn't read what I said, I said may be the product..........................

But why that one? What knowledge do you have that indicates he "may be" a product of a dysfunctional home?

 

[Tonington]

I guess you didn't read what I said, I said may be the product..........................

You said you think he may be the product of a broken home, regardless of what the facts may be...that is an assumption. Just because you are reluctant to say it with greater certainty, does not disqualify it as an assumption. English, learn it.

 

[Mowich]

To get back to your question, JLM........I think that some of the vigilantism is going way too far. I heard on Team 1040 today that someone is publishing the phone numbers and addresses of some kids on the internet. Now the families of these kids are getting threatening phone calls and face the possibility of some stranger bent on revenge turning up on their doorstep. That to me is just wrong. Threatening people with dire consequences only exacerbates the problem and does nothing to address the main the question of how to deal with these kids now. It could also prevent others who are feeling some remorse from coming forward lest they face similar situations.

Yes I think the perps should be caught and punished to the full limits of the law. I also think they should be given long hours of community service so they come to understand what a community is all about and how to be a productive member of one. I had written that their photos should be published for all to see but with this new outing thing on facebook, I don't think that anymore - I would feel absolutely terrible if someone was harmed in anyway because another group of losers decided to wreak their own brand of retribution.

Two wrongs never make a right.

 

[JLM]

But why that one? What knowledge do you have that indicates he "may be" a product of a dysfunctional home?

Obviously you have more knowledge than I that he is NOT the product of a dysfunctional home, so I'll accept that. I was merely asking questions to try to arrive at a likely answer - I know no more than anyone else who watched it on the news! :smile:

 

[earth_as_one]

I'm proud of the few who tried to stop the rioting and looting, but embarrassed by the idiots who trashed downtown Vancouver and made Canada look like a bunch of sore losers. The Boston Bruins outplayed Vancouver and even though I wish Vancouver had won, I would have gave them a standing ovation as the better team.

As far as looting is concerned, I wouldn't have lifted a finger to stop property damage as its not worth risking my life, but I'd like to think I'd have the balls to risk my life to intervene to save the life of another. I would like to think I'd have taken pictures of everyone breaking the law and I encourage those with pictures and movies to upload them to the police. See instructions below:

The people who attacked those trying to stop the looting should be punished to the full extent of the law. I support jail time for trying to hurt someone. As far as I know, this rich kid didn't hurt anyone, but he did try to set an empty police car on fire. I don't consider property damage as serious a crime as assault, but the people who broke into the Bay, to loot, piss and crap over everything should face the consequences of their actions regardless...

Upload your videos and pictures for the Vancouver police to use as evidence:

The response from the public wanting to help the police identify the individuals involved in last night’s criminal activity has been overwhelming. We are grateful for everyone’s help and have included instructions below for anyone wanting to anonymously share videos with our investigators.

For photos, please send them to robbery@vpd.ca

To anonymously upload videos to the VPD, please upload them to youtube as private videos and share them with robbery@vpd.ca

Here are the instructions on how to do this:

1. Sign in to your YouTube account and upload the video.

2. Once the video has finished uploading, click the Account link located at the top right of any page.

3. Next, click the Uploaded Videos link. Click and choose the video you want to send to us. Then, click the Edit button.

4. Under the Broadcasting and Sharing Options section (on the left-hand side of the page towards the bottom) you'll see Privacy options. Click the little black arrow/triangle to expand and see all your privacy options (if it’s not already open and you cannot see your privacy options).

5. If the video is set to Private, you'll see a section to enter an email. Enter robbery@vpd.ca in this section.

6. Click on Save Changes at the bottom of the page.

For more information visit: http://www.google.com/support/youtub...?answer=157177

You can also call the VPD tips line if you have information of use to the police investigation:
Tips can be left on the VPD tip line at 604-717-2541.

You can post information through Twitter as well at #VPD.
Twitter


You can also use CrimeStoppers which is anonymous -

Online -http://solvecrime.ca/
By telephone - 1-800-222-8477
Text to "BCTIP" to 274637

 

[JLM]

You said you think he may be the product of a broken home, regardless of what the facts may be...that is an assumption. Just because you are reluctant to say it with greater certainty, does not disqualify it as an assumption. English, learn it.

NO- that is NOT an assumption- an assumption is when you accept something as being fact.

Assumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Read the first sentence)

To get back to your question, JLM........I think that some of the vigilantism is going way too far. I heard on Team 1040 today that someone is publishing the phone numbers and addresses of some kids on the internet. Now the families of these kids are getting threatening phone calls and face the possibility of some stranger bent on revenge turning up on their doorstep. That to me is just wrong. Threatening people with dire consequences only exacerbates the problem and does nothing to address the main the question of how to deal with these kids now. It could also prevent others who are feeling some remorse from coming forward lest they face similar situations.

Yes I think the perps should be caught and punished to the full limits of the law. I also think they should be given long hours of community service so they come to understand what a community is all about and how to be a productive member of one. I had written that their photos should be published for all to see but with this new outing thing on facebook, I don't think that anymore - I would feel absolutely terrible if someone was harmed in anyway because another group of losers decided to wreak their own brand of retribution.

Two wrongs never make a right.

You've stated it well- I'm for restitution, so if they can provide the cash to cover their damage, I'd go along with that and 50 hours of community work. If they can't provided restitution then I think the value of the damage could be taken out in hours of community work at $10 an hour. I liked one judges ruling for a kid caught slashing tires- he spent his Saturdays inflating truck tires with a bicycle pump! This thing has now gotten way out of hand and it's going to end up with the perps getting sympathy.

 

[earth_as_one]

I see the family of the kid who admitted his riotous acts on T.V. have been forced from their home as a result of death threats. Typical of the holier than thous who think someone else's crime is much worse than their own. Is this thing getting to be like Topsy?

Teen athlete apologizes for Vancouver riot role - British Columbia - CBC News

**** him! I'm against making threats, punishing his family or vigilantism, but I absolutely support punishing this pathetic asshole to the full extent of the law without any sympathy. Yes I'm pissed by this.

...You've stated it well- I'm for restitution, so if they can provide the cash to cover their damage, I'd go along with that and 50 hours of community work. If they can't provided restitution then I think the value of the damage could be taken out in hours of community work at $10 an hour. I liked one judges ruling for a kid caught slashing tires- he spent his Saturdays inflating truck tires with a bicycle pump! This thing has now gotten way out of hand and it's going to end up with the perps getting sympathy.

I'm against restitution. What's $5,000 to someone who has millions? Compare rich kid to poor kid who can't pay the $5000 fine. Rich kid's Daddy will just pay the fine with some pocket change and rich kid gets off with no punishment... meanwhile the poor kid goes to prison for the same crime because their Daddy is poor... BS! That's unequal and unfair. The rich kids should have to do prison time or better yet community service just like the poor ones. I'm in favor of making the rich kid clean public toilets with a toothbrush for a year for crapping in the Bay. Someone who didn't commit a crime had to clean up their $hit.

 

[JLM]

**** him! I'm against making threats, punishing his family or vigilantism, but I absolutely support punishing this pathetic asshole to the full extent of the law without any sympathy. Yes I'm pissed by this.

Punishment is definitely needed to the extent that he won't reoffend and others won't get the idea they can do the same thing and get off lightly. Having said that he's a 17 year old kid, he was probably drunk, I want to see him put the damage right, I don't want him turned into a dysfunctional pariah who is no good to anyone for the rest of his life. People have to redirect their anger toward fixing the problem. I'm betting the cops already have all the pictures they need.

**** him! I'm against making threats, punishing his family or vigilantism, but I absolutely support punishing this pathetic asshole to the full extent of the law without any sympathy. Yes I'm pissed by this.



I'm against restitution. What's $5,000 to someone who has millions? Compare rich kid to poor kid who can't pay the $5000 fine. Rich kid's Daddy will just pay the fine with some pocket change and rich kid gets off with no punishment... meanwhile the poor kid goes to prison for the same crime because their Daddy is poor... BS! That's unequal and unfair. The rich kids should have to do prison time or better yet community service just like the poor ones. I'm in favor of making the rich kid clean public toilets with a toothbrush for a year for crapping in the Bay. Someone who didn't commit a crime had to clean up their $hit.

I agree with that...........of course I meant the money had to come out of the kid's own pocket. I don't think jail is the answer for this sort of crime.............normally I doubt if they are a public menace, just need an attitude adjustment. When I was a kid we used to get into mischief and stuff got broken (nothing close to this magnitude) - maybe pushing over the neighbour's wood pile on Hallowe'en, but the mentality was similar.

 

[earth_as_one]

At 17 he's a juvenile offender. He won't see any serious time. I support rehabilitation, but I also support serious consequences for serious crimes. Rich kid getting Daddy to pay his fine is not an appropriate consequence for his actions. While I don't consider property damage like trying to set a police car on fire as as serious as attacking someone trying to stop the looting, he should have to pay for any damage and do a serious amount of community service. The rioters who attacked people trying to stop the looting should face prison time for assault.