| View Poll Results: Should Quebec separate, what course should the Maritime provinces and NFLD & Lab follow? | |||
| Remain a part of Canada, geographically separate from the rest of the country. |    | 36 | 67.92% |
| Apply for statehood in the United States. |    | 7 | 13.21% |
| Form own independent and sovereign nation(s), either individually or collectively. |    | 10 | 18.87% |
| Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll | |||
Newbie
Posts: 6 
Location: Regina, Saskatcewan
Location: Regina, Saskatcewan
April 11th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Praxius, just so you know, most people in the West have no
problem expressing their opinions, right or wrong, informed or not.
When the subject of Quebec separation comes up, and it does...
the general opinion is, "Just do it already, and good riddance!"
There's not a whole lot of sympathy for causes that are just
not understood about Quebec by this chunk of the country, and I
just wanted to know more about the subject. Most of the questions
I asked in my original posting are opinions I've heard that many
people believe as facts out here (like Quebec splitting, but leaving
with the territory it came into confederation with, etc...and the
Native population remaining in Canada to preserve their Treaties,
which'll leave a corridor of the top 2/3rds of what is now Quebec
to connect the Maritimes to the rest of Canada, etc...) and I wanted
to get a feel for the opinions elsewhere in Canada. Many of the
loudest people I've heard on this subject out here have well thought
out arguments (I'm assuming based mostly on their own opinions)
and think that Quebec separating would turn out to be a great thing
for Canada. I normally just ignore the whole conversation, but after
hearing it brought up again a couple of days ago, I figured it was
time to learn more about the subject from several viewpoints.
Praxius, just so you know, most people in the West have no
problem expressing their opinions, right or wrong, informed or not.
When the subject of Quebec separation comes up, and it does...
the general opinion is, "Just do it already, and good riddance!"
There's not a whole lot of sympathy for causes that are just
not understood about Quebec by this chunk of the country, and I
just wanted to know more about the subject. Most of the questions
I asked in my original posting are opinions I've heard that many
people believe as facts out here (like Quebec splitting, but leaving
with the territory it came into confederation with, etc...and the
Native population remaining in Canada to preserve their Treaties,
which'll leave a corridor of the top 2/3rds of what is now Quebec
to connect the Maritimes to the rest of Canada, etc...) and I wanted
to get a feel for the opinions elsewhere in Canada. Many of the
loudest people I've heard on this subject out here have well thought
out arguments (I'm assuming based mostly on their own opinions)
and think that Quebec separating would turn out to be a great thing
for Canada. I normally just ignore the whole conversation, but after
hearing it brought up again a couple of days ago, I figured it was
time to learn more about the subject from several viewpoints.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,116
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
April 14th, 2008, 08:09 AM
From my point of view, the biggest problem that would arise would be about territory dispute. And this is one of the issues I believe most seperatists are being stupid about. They take for granted Quebec would leave with its present territory but I don't see how it could be so simple...
Other nations trying to snag some arctic territory is a whole other issue and I don't see the relevance of it in this thread. The north of Quebec is undisputed Canadian territory and disputed territories are not in Quebec territory. That solves that issue IMO.
How about you, do you feel Nova-Scotian or Canadian first?
Quoting Praxius
Of course the issue will pop-up often. It isn't settled and it won't be until we either seperate or solve the constitutional issue once and for all. Of course, life goes on even if Quebec isn't signed onto the Consitution and the country can work, but there's still and elephant sleeping in the closet and once in a while, it wakes up.
Two times more then any other provience in Canada and it continues to come back as a topic in the media and news every year.
Quoting Praxius
The problem here, besides your generalizing all Anglophones as being against you and Quebec, is that we're not stupid either. Not all of those living in Quebec think as you do above. Many have even voiced that if this went through and Quebec got their sovereingty thing going along as most want, then they would use that as a stepping stone to push for complete seperation. Until you can get rid of those fools and that mentality, the above isn't fooling anybody.... and those who advocate for the seperation and plans to go ahead once the above is done, are in turn the ones holding the country's identity and the maritimes hostage to get what you want..... which to the rest of us don't see any friggin point to it to begin with.
I'm not generalizing all Anglophones against myself and Quebec. I myself am an anglophone unless you hadn't noticed. Of course, I'm trying to describe some of the dynamics going on between 'Quebecers' and 'Canadians' and by using the Canada-Quebec duality, I am putting everyone on 2 sides but I know very well reality is much more complex than that. The problem here, besides your generalizing all Anglophones as being against you and Quebec, is that we're not stupid either. Not all of those living in Quebec think as you do above. Many have even voiced that if this went through and Quebec got their sovereingty thing going along as most want, then they would use that as a stepping stone to push for complete seperation. Until you can get rid of those fools and that mentality, the above isn't fooling anybody.... and those who advocate for the seperation and plans to go ahead once the above is done, are in turn the ones holding the country's identity and the maritimes hostage to get what you want..... which to the rest of us don't see any friggin point to it to begin with.
Quoting Praxius
No sense whatsoever? See it as a divorce. When a love relationship breaks apart the 2 persons involved don't always become enemies and it is quite possible for them to keep on cooperating and communicating, especially if they have kids. If the relationship wasn't working out, it's usually a mutual benefit for the 2 parties involved to seperate while being cooperative and humane, for the sake of everyone involved. They don't have to lose and destroy everything they had and built together. They just have to settle things out responsibly. This isn't pre-school.
Let's see, Quebec seperates, devides the Maritimes from the rest of Canada.... possibly losing those proviences at the same time as Quebec pulling this stunt, causing a lot of money flying out the window for all... the economy going to crap, other nations trying to snag some artic territory at the first chance they can get in between territory disputes... the cost of revamping the entire government structure and elections to suit one provience now absent, possibly four others on top of that, new border/air space restrictions.... basically one big screwed up headache.... and you don't see any reasons why Canada might be bitter or not want to deal with Quebec?
How can you have in the same paragraph post-seperate Canada/Quebec still wanting to trade/deal with one another to keep on sharing what both have built together, when Quebec would be destroying exactly what both have built by seperating to begin with? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
How can you have in the same paragraph post-seperate Canada/Quebec still wanting to trade/deal with one another to keep on sharing what both have built together, when Quebec would be destroying exactly what both have built by seperating to begin with? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
From my point of view, the biggest problem that would arise would be about territory dispute. And this is one of the issues I believe most seperatists are being stupid about. They take for granted Quebec would leave with its present territory but I don't see how it could be so simple...
Other nations trying to snag some arctic territory is a whole other issue and I don't see the relevance of it in this thread. The north of Quebec is undisputed Canadian territory and disputed territories are not in Quebec territory. That solves that issue IMO.
Quoting Praxius
and based on my previous post, that is starting up again by the looks of things. The reason why this whole seperatist thing keeps on going is because of the small margin of people wanting to not seperate won in 95'.... for whatever reason why they won, they won.... but we all know there is going to be yet another big one coming along for everybody to vote on.... and then another and another until those who want to seperate get their way. That is why most still considder Quebec a bunch of moaners and complainers who hang the seperation over the rest of our heads constantly..... and it is because of this that most are getting pissed and fed up over the damn thing.
It was voted on twice before, those who wanted to seperate lost twice.... it's dead and done with, yet we all know it'll just come back again and again. Either stomp the hell out of these moaners and sh*t disturbers and deal with the government the way the rest of us all do, or yes... GTF out of the country and take your chances on the rest of the country being pissed off and not dealing with you guys.
That's just MO of course.
Well I'm glad most are fed up by the Quebec issue. Maybe if enough people get fed up, Canada will wake up and face the issue once and for all. Right now I feel most of the country, including Quebec, is in denial.and based on my previous post, that is starting up again by the looks of things. The reason why this whole seperatist thing keeps on going is because of the small margin of people wanting to not seperate won in 95'.... for whatever reason why they won, they won.... but we all know there is going to be yet another big one coming along for everybody to vote on.... and then another and another until those who want to seperate get their way. That is why most still considder Quebec a bunch of moaners and complainers who hang the seperation over the rest of our heads constantly..... and it is because of this that most are getting pissed and fed up over the damn thing.
It was voted on twice before, those who wanted to seperate lost twice.... it's dead and done with, yet we all know it'll just come back again and again. Either stomp the hell out of these moaners and sh*t disturbers and deal with the government the way the rest of us all do, or yes... GTF out of the country and take your chances on the rest of the country being pissed off and not dealing with you guys.
That's just MO of course.
Quoting Praxius
Speaking French doesn't make us any more special than anyone else in the country. But language IS a big defining factor in this issue. It's crystal clear that most support for seperation comes from Quebec francophones. Language is a huge part of culture and a majority of Quebec francophones feel a national attachment to Quebec, not Canada. Most francophone federalists are so for practical reasons rather than emotional attachment to Canada. From the francophone-federalist point of view, Canada is seen as a good deal... we'd be foolish to leave the Canadian framework because it serves our interests. But the feeling of attachment to a nation is still predominantly Québecois, rather than Canadian.
And so had Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and a slew of other proviences based on what we all deem as unfair economics, social and similar things.... but we're all not threatening to leave the country... we deal with it the way everybody else deals with it in the country. Just because you speak french, doesn't make the situation any more special.
Quoting Praxius
Again, Quebec isn't any better or worse than any other province. And I'm first to agree that every province is unique. But the reason there is a strong seperatist movement in Quebec is because a majority of Quebecers feel 'Québecois' first and Canadian second (if they feel Canadian at all). That is THE difference between Quebec and the other provinces from what I understand.
There might be a different identity then other proviences in Canada, but each provience is different from the other in their own rights. I personally see nothing more special about Quebec over other proviences. New Brunswick has both French and English citizens in their provience and they seem to work together quite well. I don't hear too often cries of trying to keep their herritage pure.... to kick out forigners who come to Canada/their provience who don't speak French.... not hiring people who only speak english and all the other small minded, intollerant ways of Quebec.
What about Newfoundland? They're more distinct then most other Proviences in Canada, yet I don't hear them complaining about wanting to seperate to the level of Quebec.
What about Newfoundland? They're more distinct then most other Proviences in Canada, yet I don't hear them complaining about wanting to seperate to the level of Quebec.
How about you, do you feel Nova-Scotian or Canadian first?
Quoting Praxius
Quebec hasn't signed onto the constitution and while some will dismiss this a being a symbolic detail, I believe it reveals a big problem in the internal dynamics of Canada. Heck, if a province refuses to sign the Constitution, it's to be expected that issues of national unity will arise. If Quebec eventually does sign the Canadian constitution, it will because a strong majority of Quebecers and a strong majority of Canadians are all on the same wave-length. I truly wish to see that day.
WTF? Failures in regards to the Inclusion of Quebec in the constitution? Compared to what?
Quoting Praxius
Sure it is. But Quebecers and francophone Quebecers in particular are numerous enough to feel and act like a nation with a strong desire for autonomy.
Quebec had their identity long before Canada did? Hell... Nova Scotia still has a population that still speaks not only French but also Gaelic in Cape Breton. This identity has been here since people began to settle, yet that's no identity?
Quoting Praxius
I absolutely agree with you that what makes Canada's identity is the collective of provincial identities. And I do NOT think other provinces have no identities to speak of. I do think however that there is a distinct rift between Quebec's identity and the rest of Canada and it's mainly caused by the language barrier. Language IS a big deal because it's such a vital part of culture and identity. I'm blessed to have been raised in both French and English and that's primarily what opens me up to the rest of Canada. Many francophone Quebecers simply don't relate to Canada beyond the Montreal Canadians (Go Habs Go!!! by the way...) and from what I understand, it's mostly because of the language barrier.
I think you need to understand that the collective of proviencial identities in Canada are exactly what makes up Canada's Identity..... and if you think the other proviences don't have an identity to speak of, or isn't on par with Quebec's, then that shows your own intollerance and simple-mindedness you referred to above in regards to the rest of Canada.
I understand very clearly what you are trying to say about Quebec's perspective and position, but I still don't see anything remotely different from other proviences that would warrent you guys any justification for seperation, besides sometimes not always getting what you want.....
guess what? Nobody ever does.
I understand very clearly what you are trying to say about Quebec's perspective and position, but I still don't see anything remotely different from other proviences that would warrent you guys any justification for seperation, besides sometimes not always getting what you want.....
guess what? Nobody ever does.
