Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986 
November 16th, 2006, 12:00 PM
"chillin' out" being defined as not shopping, but including lots of other things. For some reason, you have decided that certain leisure activities are acceptable under your Sunday rules, but others are not.
You're trying to make the point that ALLOWING Sunday shopping equals FORCING stores to be open Sunday, which is not the case.
Enjoy your day of rest. As you say, this debate will go on forever, and never reach any conclusion. So I'm not going to continue it; there's no point.
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
Based on....nothing.....
I seem to be having difficulty in communicating clearly my stance.
The simple fact is, having Sunday as a chillin' out day is good for the province.
The simple fact is, having Sunday as a chillin' out day is good for the province.
"chillin' out" being defined as not shopping, but including lots of other things. For some reason, you have decided that certain leisure activities are acceptable under your Sunday rules, but others are not.
You're trying to make the point that ALLOWING Sunday shopping equals FORCING stores to be open Sunday, which is not the case.
Enjoy your day of rest. As you say, this debate will go on forever, and never reach any conclusion. So I'm not going to continue it; there's no point.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 16th, 2006, 12:10 PM
I see now why I seem to be having difficulty in communicating my case to you. You do not seem to be reading all of what has been written. It is obvious you have no real interest in discussing the subject. Nevertheless and I quote from my previous post - just in case it eluded you "(I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis)" ergo many stores that would otherwise choose to close are FORCED open in order to compete.
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times, and yet you simply wish to draw incorrect conclusions and twist my words. I completely understand that you wish to shop on Sunday, you have yet to explain to me why that is, and you have yet to explain why you feel Sunday Shopping would enhance my life as a citizen of Nova Scotia. Logically, as someone with strong conviction such as yours would have a reasonable argument to share, yet all I've received in response posts have been somewhat snide, baseless accusations. What is your opinion of the topic and why do you feel so strongly about it?
I see now why I seem to be having difficulty in communicating my case to you. You do not seem to be reading all of what has been written. It is obvious you have no real interest in discussing the subject. Nevertheless and I quote from my previous post - just in case it eluded you "(I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis)" ergo many stores that would otherwise choose to close are FORCED open in order to compete.
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times, and yet you simply wish to draw incorrect conclusions and twist my words. I completely understand that you wish to shop on Sunday, you have yet to explain to me why that is, and you have yet to explain why you feel Sunday Shopping would enhance my life as a citizen of Nova Scotia. Logically, as someone with strong conviction such as yours would have a reasonable argument to share, yet all I've received in response posts have been somewhat snide, baseless accusations. What is your opinion of the topic and why do you feel so strongly about it?
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,836
November 16th, 2006, 04:21 PM
The problem isn't the stores being open, Im all for that.
The problem is FORCING the minimum wage staff to work there.
Perhaps make it so only store owners can work would also work. Either that or hideously bloated wages for the staff (ie, min $20/hr as previous).
But I always hated how the lower class is denied having any kind of a normal weekend by the upper and middle classes, who wouldn't think of constant weekend work themselves. We have labour laws for a reason and thats because you can't trust people to whats right when money is involved.
The problem isn't the stores being open, Im all for that.
The problem is FORCING the minimum wage staff to work there.
Perhaps make it so only store owners can work would also work. Either that or hideously bloated wages for the staff (ie, min $20/hr as previous).
But I always hated how the lower class is denied having any kind of a normal weekend by the upper and middle classes, who wouldn't think of constant weekend work themselves. We have labour laws for a reason and thats because you can't trust people to whats right when money is involved.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 16th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Indeed it does pose a paradox. And interrestingly the gov't officials don't seem too eager to work on Sundays themselves, in fact it would seem that gov't staff get more time off than any other part of the workforce.
How high would the wages need to be to make it attractive to work on a Sunday? I honestly don't think $20 would cut it, because it would not only inflate income tax for some, but your actual take home lessens proportionally the higher your income gets (years of experience at low hourly rates). Perhaps a pay raise of 150% and significant tax rebates for weekends worked?
Also - there are many countries with Sunday Shopping that have much more generous leisure laws. Longer mandatory vacation, more stat. holidays. Not to mention that we need much stricter laws regarding part time vs. full time staff, more and more companies are employing part time staff and giveing them 30+ hours a week simply to avoid having to pay benefits. Companies of specific size should be required to hire a minimum number of full time staff. It's not easy for the working individual to make a go of it. HRM doesn't help matters any, with increased parking and commuting costs. And all of those increased taxes the gov't seems to think they will claim on retail business on Sundays should offset gas taxes. I was in Maine recently (which offers Sunday Shopping - and gas hovered aound 55 cents a litre).
If the government is going to allow Sunday Shopping (which I am firmly against) I think they must be taken to task on related issues, beginning with their own hours of operation! Current retail workers might not have such a hard time swallowing the new imposed situation if they were better treated over-all. (just FYI, I'm an office worker downtown, my hours are not affected by the changes)
Indeed it does pose a paradox. And interrestingly the gov't officials don't seem too eager to work on Sundays themselves, in fact it would seem that gov't staff get more time off than any other part of the workforce.
How high would the wages need to be to make it attractive to work on a Sunday? I honestly don't think $20 would cut it, because it would not only inflate income tax for some, but your actual take home lessens proportionally the higher your income gets (years of experience at low hourly rates). Perhaps a pay raise of 150% and significant tax rebates for weekends worked?
Also - there are many countries with Sunday Shopping that have much more generous leisure laws. Longer mandatory vacation, more stat. holidays. Not to mention that we need much stricter laws regarding part time vs. full time staff, more and more companies are employing part time staff and giveing them 30+ hours a week simply to avoid having to pay benefits. Companies of specific size should be required to hire a minimum number of full time staff. It's not easy for the working individual to make a go of it. HRM doesn't help matters any, with increased parking and commuting costs. And all of those increased taxes the gov't seems to think they will claim on retail business on Sundays should offset gas taxes. I was in Maine recently (which offers Sunday Shopping - and gas hovered aound 55 cents a litre).
If the government is going to allow Sunday Shopping (which I am firmly against) I think they must be taken to task on related issues, beginning with their own hours of operation! Current retail workers might not have such a hard time swallowing the new imposed situation if they were better treated over-all. (just FYI, I'm an office worker downtown, my hours are not affected by the changes)
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 29th, 2006, 09:53 AM
You keep insisting that I'm not getting your point, but I do. You are equating being ABLE to open on Sundays with being FORCED to open on Sundays, while at the same time repeating that you are not doing so. If you, as a store owner, decide that opening on Sunday is a way for you to compete, great. Nobody is forcing you to open. It's your choice.
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
Indeed, but repeating the same false claim over and over doesn't help. You are still saying that the option to option is the same as forcing businesses to open. You've just stated it as quoted above. You're trying to add on the "to compete".....as if this makes a difference? Most hairdressers choose NOT to open on Sundays. They still exist.
I see now why I seem to be having difficulty in communicating my case to you. You do not seem to be reading all of what has been written. It is obvious you have no real interest in discussing the subject. Nevertheless and I quote from my previous post - just in case it eluded you "(I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis)" ergo many stores that would otherwise choose to close are FORCED open in order to compete.
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times,
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times,
You keep insisting that I'm not getting your point, but I do. You are equating being ABLE to open on Sundays with being FORCED to open on Sundays, while at the same time repeating that you are not doing so. If you, as a store owner, decide that opening on Sunday is a way for you to compete, great. Nobody is forcing you to open. It's your choice.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 29th, 2006, 03:53 PM
From the point of a businessman, to remain closed (even if you want to) on a day when your competition is opening, is not an option - it's a forced market shift. It's not a contradiction, or a "false CLAIM" - it's a fact that isn't even the crux of the issue - It's painfully obvious that you, as a consumer, have little to no interest in the best for our community. And I cannot continue to try to get through.....enjoy shopping on Sunday, but make sure you thank each customer service rep for giving you their time instead of their family.
From the point of a businessman, to remain closed (even if you want to) on a day when your competition is opening, is not an option - it's a forced market shift. It's not a contradiction, or a "false CLAIM" - it's a fact that isn't even the crux of the issue - It's painfully obvious that you, as a consumer, have little to no interest in the best for our community. And I cannot continue to try to get through.....enjoy shopping on Sunday, but make sure you thank each customer service rep for giving you their time instead of their family.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 29th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Ummm - "the unwashed masses" - odd, really. Did you vote in the plebescite? Were you in the province? Just an update - the majority is in favour of a ban. You make it seem like I'm alone in my opinions - I assure you that I am not. Resorting to insult, however indirect - it's weak. Once again, enjoy your shopping - it is apparently the highest of priorities.....so long OCDU, may your judgments continue in all their sweeping glory.
Ummm - "the unwashed masses" - odd, really. Did you vote in the plebescite? Were you in the province? Just an update - the majority is in favour of a ban. You make it seem like I'm alone in my opinions - I assure you that I am not. Resorting to insult, however indirect - it's weak. Once again, enjoy your shopping - it is apparently the highest of priorities.....so long OCDU, may your judgments continue in all their sweeping glory.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 30th, 2006, 06:45 AM
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
You continue to confuse allowing sunday shopping with forcing stores to be open. And the arbitrary rules about square footage for openings is simply a way for all of the powers that be to determine that the guy who works at a convenience store does NOT deserve a day of rest, while the guy who works at WalMart does. It's an arbitrary, unfair distinction. That's the whole point. It's unfair. It would be like ruling that new car lots cannot be open on Saturdays, but used car lots can. There is simply no foundation for the difference, therefore it is an unacceptable regulation.
Ummm - "the unwashed masses" - odd, really. Did you vote in the plebescite? Were you in the province? Just an update - the majority is in favour of a ban. You make it seem like I'm alone in my opinions - I assure you that I am not. Resorting to insult, however indirect - it's weak. Once again, enjoy your shopping - it is apparently the highest of priorities.....so long OCDU, may your judgments continue in all their sweeping glory.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 30th, 2006, 12:12 PM
I think I understand the desire to preserve Nova Scotia's lifestyle. New Brunswick has had Sunday Shopping for some time:
"New Brunswick and the rest of the Atlantic provinces — excluding Nova Scotia — scored highest in terms of personal contentment. New Brunswick scored with 78.6 out of 100 as the happiest in the country, but just next door, Nova Scotia scored lowest at 72.8. Across Canada, the average came out at 75.6 out of 100."
So the idea is that people in Nova Scotia are discontent, but want to stay that way.
I think I understand the desire to preserve Nova Scotia's lifestyle. New Brunswick has had Sunday Shopping for some time:
"New Brunswick and the rest of the Atlantic provinces — excluding Nova Scotia — scored highest in terms of personal contentment. New Brunswick scored with 78.6 out of 100 as the happiest in the country, but just next door, Nova Scotia scored lowest at 72.8. Across Canada, the average came out at 75.6 out of 100."
So the idea is that people in Nova Scotia are discontent, but want to stay that way.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 30th, 2006, 12:32 PM
ummm ... again, really? okay, I’ll play along....
Fair eh? Well in the interest of fair, and using your definitions of fair, rights and arbitrary. Should not stores all be open 24 hours a day 7 days a week? And considering those who may not celebrate all of the holidays, should not the stores all be open those days as well? Ahh but the stores have that OPTION now you say. Indeed, but what of the rights of the consumer, how does this reconcile the right of the 12 hour day shifter who needs to buy groceries at 3:00am on New Years day? What of his rights? Whose rights are more important? The right of the consumer or the right of the business?
Be fair - be consistent, this would clear up the ‘used car’ analogy.
You see, this issue isn’t about FAIR, it’s not about RIGHTS, it’s about the individual need to buy and the corporate need to profit. It is a fact of nature law that fair to one person will without question be unfair to someone else. There must be a balance struck - there is nothing arbitrary about compromise. You have droned on about square footage etc. And as I’ve CLEARLY stated in the past (I guess you missed it) I could care less if they closed every store, bar, restaurant and gas station on Sundays (in the interest of fair - of course). But that’s not the point...(around which you seem to dance without having much of a real opinion of your own)...read on...
And I have confused NOTHING, you have (as per usual) again attempted to argue my point by placing words and opinions in my mouth. I have discussed this issue at length with numerous people - on both sides of the debate ... to date you are the only person who has argued a known and stated fact. It is fact, not confusion, that there exist across the province; stores that would otherwise choose to close - that have felt pressured (forced have you) to open simply to compete. This is not a confusion and has nothing to do with square footage. And as far as a day of rest goes - I don’t think deserve is a word that is even appropriate - we all REQUIRE a day of rest.....oh yes I know how restful shopping can be what with all the screaming children, angry shoppers, unhappy employees and high prices....quite a rest indeed.
If you wish to pick things from my argument to refute, please do. All I ask is that you begin to do it with intelligence, this could be a good discussion if you would stop trying to drum up falacies by rearranging my words. I understand that you are in favour of sunday shopping, and I have asked in the past that you explain the benefits of Sunday Shopping, state your position so to speak - I’m still waiting.
Interresting statistics you have quoted from....where? Your quote is irrelevant to this discussion... was the data for your stats collected before the Sunday Shopping started or after? Inane. I suppose you could imply that the survey was heavily weighted based on this one issue, but that too would be rediculous. Contentment would encompass social status, financial remuneration, employment, entertainment, family, government, etc. Get with the program, wow me with your opinion for a change - what is your position and why?
And please, it’s overtly obvious that you’re not a Bluenoser. Have you ever even been to our province? Our lifestyle is special, if I had to guess I’d place you somewhere in Southwestern or central Ontario.
ummm ... again, really? okay, I’ll play along....
Fair eh? Well in the interest of fair, and using your definitions of fair, rights and arbitrary. Should not stores all be open 24 hours a day 7 days a week? And considering those who may not celebrate all of the holidays, should not the stores all be open those days as well? Ahh but the stores have that OPTION now you say. Indeed, but what of the rights of the consumer, how does this reconcile the right of the 12 hour day shifter who needs to buy groceries at 3:00am on New Years day? What of his rights? Whose rights are more important? The right of the consumer or the right of the business?
Be fair - be consistent, this would clear up the ‘used car’ analogy.
You see, this issue isn’t about FAIR, it’s not about RIGHTS, it’s about the individual need to buy and the corporate need to profit. It is a fact of nature law that fair to one person will without question be unfair to someone else. There must be a balance struck - there is nothing arbitrary about compromise. You have droned on about square footage etc. And as I’ve CLEARLY stated in the past (I guess you missed it) I could care less if they closed every store, bar, restaurant and gas station on Sundays (in the interest of fair - of course). But that’s not the point...(around which you seem to dance without having much of a real opinion of your own)...read on...
And I have confused NOTHING, you have (as per usual) again attempted to argue my point by placing words and opinions in my mouth. I have discussed this issue at length with numerous people - on both sides of the debate ... to date you are the only person who has argued a known and stated fact. It is fact, not confusion, that there exist across the province; stores that would otherwise choose to close - that have felt pressured (forced have you) to open simply to compete. This is not a confusion and has nothing to do with square footage. And as far as a day of rest goes - I don’t think deserve is a word that is even appropriate - we all REQUIRE a day of rest.....oh yes I know how restful shopping can be what with all the screaming children, angry shoppers, unhappy employees and high prices....quite a rest indeed.
If you wish to pick things from my argument to refute, please do. All I ask is that you begin to do it with intelligence, this could be a good discussion if you would stop trying to drum up falacies by rearranging my words. I understand that you are in favour of sunday shopping, and I have asked in the past that you explain the benefits of Sunday Shopping, state your position so to speak - I’m still waiting.
Interresting statistics you have quoted from....where? Your quote is irrelevant to this discussion... was the data for your stats collected before the Sunday Shopping started or after? Inane. I suppose you could imply that the survey was heavily weighted based on this one issue, but that too would be rediculous. Contentment would encompass social status, financial remuneration, employment, entertainment, family, government, etc. Get with the program, wow me with your opinion for a change - what is your position and why?
And please, it’s overtly obvious that you’re not a Bluenoser. Have you ever even been to our province? Our lifestyle is special, if I had to guess I’d place you somewhere in Southwestern or central Ontario.
Newbie
Posts: 15
November 30th, 2006, 12:55 PM
I'm sorry, I just can't get past the fact that you have equated some random, unquantified statistic regarding our provincial contentment with Sunday Shopping, as though we would all be happier if we would simply silently embrace the cash register every Sunday morning.....I was going to laugh, but I was too busy shaking my head in disbelief ... I then wept ... in awe that such laugh-tacular reasoning can exist in such an 'enlightened' age as we live in. I applaud your bravery.
I'm sorry, I just can't get past the fact that you have equated some random, unquantified statistic regarding our provincial contentment with Sunday Shopping, as though we would all be happier if we would simply silently embrace the cash register every Sunday morning.....I was going to laugh, but I was too busy shaking my head in disbelief ... I then wept ... in awe that such laugh-tacular reasoning can exist in such an 'enlightened' age as we live in. I applaud your bravery.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 30th, 2006, 02:19 PM
I think you have a hard time with this concept; you seem to have missed it over the last several months, so I'll repeat it:
OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
They should have the OPTION to do so if they wish. Repeat after me: OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.
ummm ... again, really? okay, I’ll play along....
Fair eh? Well in the interest of fair, and using your definitions of fair, rights and arbitrary. Should not stores all be open 24 hours a day 7 days a week?
Fair eh? Well in the interest of fair, and using your definitions of fair, rights and arbitrary. Should not stores all be open 24 hours a day 7 days a week?
I think you have a hard time with this concept; you seem to have missed it over the last several months, so I'll repeat it:
OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION. OPTION.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 30th, 2006, 02:20 PM
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
Apparently, your ability to grasp humour has long escaped you as well. No wonder you need a day off each week.
I'm sorry, I just can't get past the fact that you have equated some random, unquantified statistic regarding our provincial contentment with Sunday Shopping, as though we would all be happier if we would simply silently embrace the cash register every Sunday morning.....I was going to laugh, but I was too busy shaking my head in disbelief ... I then wept ... in awe that such laugh-tacular reasoning can exist in such an 'enlightened' age as we live in. I applaud your bravery.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,986
November 30th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Attention all shoppers: People who work in Big Stores must be given Sundays off, to restore society. All other workers do not qualify. If this offends you, you are free to seek other work. That is all.
Quoting LoremIpsumDolor
If your constant repeating of the same erroneous point is what you call intelligence, then, yes, it IS lost on me.
I had my suspicions.
I apologize if your 'humour' was lost on me. It is apparent that intelligence is lost on you.
I apologize if your 'humour' was lost on me. It is apparent that intelligence is lost on you.
Attention all shoppers: People who work in Big Stores must be given Sundays off, to restore society. All other workers do not qualify. If this offends you, you are free to seek other work. That is all.
