Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

Which person or group supports freedom, justice and democracy in Egypt


  • Total voters
    15

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Crunch time! When it counts...

Who really supports freedom, justice and democracy
vs
Who claims they support freedom, justice and democracy but really don't.

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak
Hosni Mubarak, Egypt's president, has sworn in a new cabinet in a bid to quell days of mass uprising against him and the government.

Three former senior officers are included in the line-up, suggesting a strong security presence in the new government.

Mahmoud Wagdi, a retired police general, was appointed the country's new interior minister, replacing Habib el-Adli, who was criticised for brutality inflicted on protesters.

Wagdi was previously head of Cairo criminal investigations department and also a former head of prisons.

Protesters had demanded Habib al-Adli, the former interior minister, be sacked after police used force on protesters including beatings, tear gas and firing rubber bullets.


Ahmed Abul Gheit, the foreign minister, retained his job, as did General Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the defence minister, state television reported.

A deputy prime minister, finance minister and trade minister, were also appointed in the ceremony on Monday.
The Egyptian Military:
The Egyptian army has said it would not use force against citizens staging protests to force President Hosni Mubarak to step down In a statement on Monday it said "freedom of expression" was guaranteed to all citizens using peaceful means.

It was the first such explicit confirmation by the army that it would not fire at demonstrators who have taken to the streets of Egypt and comes a day before before Tuesday's "march of millions" to mark the seventh day of the protests as anti-government sentiment reaches a fever pitch.

"The presence of the army in the streets is for your sake and to ensure your safety and wellbeing. The armed forces will not resort to use of force against our great people," the army statement said.

"Your armed forces, who are aware of the legitimacy of your demands and are keen to assume their responsibility in protecting the nation and the citizens, affirms that freedom of expression through peaceful means is guaranteed to everybody."

It urged people not resort to acts of sabotage that violate security and destroy public and private property. It warned that it would not allow outlaws and to loot, attack and "terrorise citizens".

Protesters have called for a massive demonstration and a rolling general strike on Tuesday.

The so-called April 6 Movement said it plans to have more than one million people on the streets of the capital Cairo.
US President Barack Obama
U.S. President Barack Obama on Sunday called for an orderly transition in Egypt to a government that reflects the aspirations of the Egyptian people. The president spoke by telephone with world and Middle East leaders about the situation in Egypt.

President Obama reiterated the focus he has placed on opposing violence, calling for restraint and supporting universal rights, including the right to peaceful assembly, association and speech.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
Netanyahu told reporters in Jerusalem that Israel was following the developments with "concern and vigilance, in the hope that peace, stability and security will be maintained."

He noted that the uprising in Egypt is not being led by radical Islam, but added, "In a state of chaos, an organized Islamist element can take over countries. It happened in Iran."
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper:
Canada wants to see a transition toward greater democracy and freedom in Egypt, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Monday.

But Harper stopped short of calling for the ouster of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the face of continuing protests over his three decades of rule.

"We want to see a transition towards basic values of freedom, democracy, human rights and justice," Harper told the House of Commons on Monday. "We want to make sure the transition does not tend towards violence, instability and extremism."
Anyone else have an opinion?

My 2 cents:

Egyptians and all people have a fundamental human right to choose their leader by a free and fair process which reflects accurately the will of the people. Elections are one way to achieve this.

Also everyone has a fundamental human right to peaceful assembly/protest and free speech.
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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I imagine the military.
Regardless, most of your options are not in favour of democracy in Egypt but the status quo, a puppet Egypt that will not be in a position to threaten Israel.


Even a Democratic Egypt would be a "threat" to Israel, as they wouldn't turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in the Gaza Strip, won't enforce a blockade, and will exert more pressure on Israel during peace talks.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Israel having a neighbor that won't ignore their human rights abuses anymore sounds like an improvement as far as human rights are concerned. This change does increase the likelihood that Egypt might go to war with Israel, but I still believe that's an unlikely outcome in the near future.

I doubt Israel would allow Egypt to end the blockade on their own, but the amount of smuggling would increase leading to a better armed Gaza, raising the cost to Israel.

Another possibility is that a free Egypt might eventually offer to take Gaza off Israel's hands.

BTW, you can select multiple in the choices...
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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What would a free Egypt look like. A true democracy could never flourish there, Hosni Mubarak had what he and the army considered a democracy for 30+ years. We may see a government come out of this that the people want, but that alone will not make it a democracy. Why was Israel brought up, this is about Egypt which has a lot more potential to change the Mid-East than any other country there.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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What would a free Egypt look like. A true democracy could never flourish there, Hosni Mubarak had what he and the army considered a democracy for 30+ years. We may see a government come out of this that the people want, but that alone will not make it a democracy. Why was Israel brought up,? this is about Egypt which has a lot more potential to change the Mid-East than any other country there.

Perfect example of a rhetorical question.....;-)
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Other world leaders are finally breaking the silence.

Turkish PM backs Egypt protesters...Erdogan appealed to Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president: "You have to listen to the wishes of the people in order to create security and stability. First you must take steps that are good for Egypt. You must take steps that satisfy the people."...Ali Akbar Salehi, the Foreign Minister, said Iran will offer its support to the protesters in Egypt."On our part we are going along with the freedom seekers of the world and support the uprising of the great nation of Egypt. We sympathise with those injured and killed" in the protests, he said.
Turkish PM backs Egypt protesters - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

IMO, Iran's leaders are hypocrites. They already demonstrated their true colors when it comes to dealing with peaceful protests of freedom seekers. Their leaders have more in common Mubarak than the Egyptian protesters.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Other world leaders are finally breaking the silence.

Turkish PM backs Egypt protesters - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

IMO, Iran's leaders are hypocrites. They already demonstrated their true colors when it comes to dealing with peaceful protests of freedom seekers. Their leaders have more in common Mubarak than the Egyptian protesters.

Now that I agree with.......

Peter Goodspeed: For Israel, Egypt protests an unfolding disaster | Full Comment | National Post

Israel's fears.....

And a reference to the Iranian revolution....

Lessons from a revolution (Iran’s, that is) - The Globe and Mail
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
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why isn't there an option for NONE?

because that's the answer. the US and Canada do not want to have things fall apart in Egypt because the Dictator in charge is a US and Canadian Supported Dictator.

The Americans fear that if the Govt Falls, the new power could be a Hezbollah type set up and then they're screwed.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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From Colpy's first link

More than anything else, Israel wants Washington to resist the temptation to jettison General Mubarak and side with the protesters in Cairo.
Israel desperately wants to maintain the current Egyptian government, whether or not Gen. Mubarak remains its president.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/02/01/peter-goodspeed-for-israel-egypt-protests-an-unfolding-disaster/

Jettisoning a brutal dictator in favor of freedom and democracy is the right thing to do and the time to call on Mubarak to step down is now.

I'm not surprised Israel's leaders have sided with a brutal and oppressive dictator against the Egyptian people. A free democratic Egypt which represents the will of Egyptians would not likely ignore Israel's criminal human rights abuses. I doubt they would start a war with Israel, but they would likely allow the free flow of humanitarian food and medical aid to enter Gaza.

How this revolution affects Israel is not on the minds of the protesters. They want Mubarak out and I expect that will happen today or within a few days.

Comparisons to the 1979 Iranian revolution are fair. Back then, the US and other western leaders backed the brutal dictator until he was forced to flee. Hopefully they won't make that mistake again.

In 1979, the Iranian military acted quite differently than the Egyptian military has acted so far in 2011. The Iranian military stayed loyal to the Shah and brutally cracked down on the 1979 protests, which drove the movement underground temporarily. When the Iranians returned to the streets, the crowds were meaner, nastier and led by religious fanatics. The same thing might happen in Egypt if these protests don't succeed in the near future.

Change is coming to Egypt one way or another. The status quo, even a reformed version of it, is no longer an option. The Egyptian military would be wise not to repeat the mistakes made by the Iranian military in 1979 and try to violently crush this movement. So far, the Egyptian military has conducted themselves in a professional disciplined manner and have publicly stated their loyalty to their country and the Egyptian people.

All countries in the region ruled by dictators face the same threat as Mubarak and it doesn't matter whether they are pro-west like Saudi Arabia and Jordan or anti-west like Syria and Iran. This is about freedom and democracy, not whether you are pro-West or an Islamic radical. You either support these ideals or you don't.

why isn't there an option for NONE?

because that's the answer. the US and Canada do not want to have things fall apart in Egypt because the Dictator in charge is a US and Canadian Supported Dictator.

The Americans fear that if the Govt Falls, the new power could be a Hezbollah type set up and then they're screwed.

Sorry, I didn't consider that option. I don't think I can change it now.

For Colpy,

Not all Jews support Mubarak or the Israeli government. Here's a Jewish viewpoint on this revolution:
Jewish prayers for Egypt's uprising
Many Jews from around the world support Egyptian self-determination because of Judaism's own historic past with Egypt.

Ever since the victory over the dictator of Tunisia and the subsequent uprising in Egypt, my email has been flooded with messages from Jews around the world hoping and praying for the victory of the Egyptian people over their cruel Mubarak regime.

Though a small segment of Jews have responded to right-wing voices from Israel that lament the change and fear that a democratic government would bring to power fundamentalist extremists who wish to destroy Israel and who would abrogate the hard-earned treaty that has kept the peace between Egypt and Israel for the last 30 years, the majority of Jews are more excited and hopeful than worried.

Of course, the worriers have a point. Israel has allied itself with repressive regimes in Egypt and used that alliance to ensure that the borders with Gaza would remain closed while Israel attempted to economically deprive the Hamas regime there by denying needed food supplies and equipment to rebuild after Israel's devastating attack in December 2008 and January 2009. If the Egyptian people take over, they are far more likely to side with Hamas than with the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

Yet it is impossible for Jews to forget our heritage as victims of another Egyptian tyrant - the Pharaoh whose reliance on brute force was overthrown when the Israelite slaves managed to escape from Egypt some 3,000 years ago. That story of freedom retold each year at our Passover "Seder" celebration, and read in synagogues in the past month, has often predisposed the majority of Jews to side with those struggling for freedom around the world.

To watch hundreds of thousands of Egyptians able to throw off the chains of oppression and the legacy of a totalitarian regime that consistently jailed, tortured or murdered its opponents so overtly that most people were cowed into silence, is to remember that the spark of God continues to flourish no matter how long oppressive regimes manage to keep themselves in power, and that ultimately the yearning for freedom and democracy cannot be totally stamped out no matter how cruel and sophisticated the elites of wealth, power and military might appear to be.

Many Jews have warned Israel that it is a mistake to ally with these kinds of regimes, just as we've warned the US to learn the lesson from its failed alliance with the Shah of Iran. We've urged Israel to free the Palestinian people by ending the Occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza. Israel's long-term security will not be secured through military or economic domination, but only by acting in a generous and caring way toward the Palestinian people first, and then toward all of its Arab neighbours.

Similarly, America's homeland security will best be achieved through a strategy of generosity and caring, manifested through a new Global Marshall Plan such as has been introduced into the House of Representatives by Congressman Keith Ellison.

In normal times, when the forces of repression seem to be winning, this kind of thinking is dismissed as "utopian" by the "realists" who shape public political discourse. But when events like the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt occur, for a moment the politicians and media are stunned enough to allow a different kind of thinking to emerge, the kind of thinking that acknowledged that underneath all the "business as usual" behaviour of the world's peoples, the yearning for a world based on solidarity, caring for each other, freedom, self-determination, justice, non-violence and yes, even love and generosity, remains a potent and unquenchable thirst that may be temporarily repressed but never fully extinguished.

It is this recognition that leads many Jews to join with the rest of the world's peoples in celebrating the uprising, in praying that it does not become manipulated by the old regime into paths that too quickly divert the hopes for a brand new kind of order into politics and economics as usual, or into extremist attempts to switch the anger from domestic elites who have been the source of Egyptian oppression onto Jews or Israel which have not been responsible for the suffering of the Egyptian people.

We hope that Egyptians will hear the news that they have strong support from many in the Jewish world. We are not waffling like Obama - we want the overthrow of Mubarak, the freeing of all political prisoners, the redistribution of wealth in a fair way, trials for those who perpetrated torture and other forms of injustice, and the democratisation of all aspects of Egyptian life.
Jewish prayers for Egypt's uprising - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun, chair of the interfaith Network of Spiritual Progressives, and rabbi of Beyt Tikkun Synagogue in Berkeley, California.
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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Things Have to Change in Order to Remain the Same

Paul Craig Roberts,
February 01, 2011


The hypocrisy of the U.S. government is yet again demonstrated in full force. The U.S. government invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, laid waste to much of the countries, including entire villages and towns, and massacred untold numbers of civilians in order “to bring democracy” to Iraq and Afghanistan. Now after days of Egyptians in the streets demanding “Mubarak must go,” the U.S. government remains aligned with its puppet Egyptian ruler, even suggesting that Mubarak, after running a police state for three decades, is the appropriate person to implement democracy in Egypt.

On Jan. 30, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton declared that “freedom and democracy” America neither seeks nor supports the ouster of the Egyptian dictator.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the U.S. and Europe that criticism of Mubarak must be curbed in order “to preserve stability in the region.”

By “stability” Netanyahu means the unimpeded ability of Israel to continue oppressing the Palestinians and stealing their country.

Mubarak has been for three decades the well-paid enforcer for the U.S. and Israel, sealing off Gaza from the outside world and preventing aid flows across the Egyptian border. Mubarak and his family have become multi-billionaires, thanks to the American taxpayer, and both Republicans and Democrats do not want to lose their heavy investment in Mubarak.

The U.S. government has long corrupted Arab governments by paying rulers installed by the U.S. to represent U.S./Israeli interests rather than the interests of Arab peoples. Arabs put up with American-financed oppression for many years but now are showing signs of rebellion.

The murderous American-supported dictator in Tunis was overthrown by people taking to the streets. Rebellion has spread to Egypt, and there are also street protests against the U.S.-supported rulers in Yemen and Jordan.

These uprisings might succeed in ousting puppet rulers, but will the result be anything more than the exchange of a new American puppet ruler for the old? Mubarak might go, but whoever takes his place is likely to find himself wearing the same American harness.

What dictators do is to eliminate alternative leadership. Potential leaders are either assassinated, exiled, or imprisoned. Moreover, anything short of a full-fledged revolution, such as the Iranian one, leaves in place a bureaucracy accustomed to business as usual. In addition, Egypt and the country’s military have grown accustomed to American support and will want the money to keep flowing. It is the flow of this money that ensures the purchase of the replacement government.

Because the U.S. dollar is the world reserve currency, the U.S. government has financial dominance and the ability to financially isolate other countries, such as Iran. To break free of America’s grip, one of two things would have to happen. Revolution would have to sweep the Arab world and result in an economic unity that could foster indigenous economic development, or the U.S. dollar would have to fail as world currency.

Arab disunity has long been the means by which the Western countries have dominated the Middle East. Without this disunity, Israel and the U.S. could not abuse the Palestinians in the manner in which they have for decades, and without this disunity the U.S. could not have invaded Iraq. It is unlikely that the Arabs will suddenly unite themselves.

The collapse of the dollar is more likely. Indeed, the policy of the U.S. government to maximize both budget and trade deficits and the policy of the Federal Reserve to monetize the budget deficit and the fraudulent paper assets of the large banks have the dollar heading for demise.

As the supply of dollars grows, the value diminishes. Perhaps the time is not far off when rulers cease to sell out their peoples for American money.
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
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I guess when you look at it, the USA is supporting the lesser of two evils. they want to have this guy rather than a terrorist run government.

only way I can see it.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I guess when you look at it, the USA is supporting the lesser of two evils. they want to have this guy rather than a terrorist run government.

only way I can see it.
Mubarak's supporters would like to frame this issue that way, but that's not what's going on. This is about freedom and democracy. You either support the right of Egyptians to freely choose their government by democratic means or you don't. While its possible that Egyptians might one day elect a government the US doesn't like, that's beside the point and not what's going on right now. The first step is to get replace the dictator with a caretaker government. I understand fear of the unknown, but that's no reason support injustice and oppression in Egypt.
 

CUBert

Time Out
Aug 15, 2010
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Mubarak doesn't seem to understand or care that it's the people who rule the country, not him and his cabinet. When the people are dissatisfied with you and no longer want you in power, you step down for the betterment of the country. He continues to stay, completely unwanted, resulting in protests, looting and economic downfall of his country.
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
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well, ok. I agree with the democracy aspect, let's just hope to god they don't then elect the Hezbollah into power or someone else who despises Western Civilization..
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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Mubarak's supporters would like to frame this issue that way, but that's not what's going on. This is about freedom and democracy. You either support the right of Egyptians to freely choose their government by democratic means or you don't. While its possible that Egyptians might one day elect a government the US doesn't like, that's beside the point and not what's going on right now. The first step is to get replace the dictator with a caretaker government. I understand fear of the unknown, but that's no reason support injustice and oppression in Egypt.

You know, thats a nice place to park your idealism but we live in the real world, not a utopia. While I can sympathize with Eqyptians who want to choose their own leader, my concern, as a foreigner and someone only connected to the Egyptians in the most remote and tenuous of ways, is stability. I don't blame the Israelis for wanting that either. If there can be an orderly and peaceful transition of power from Mubarak, then well and good.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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well, ok. I agree with the democracy aspect, let's just hope to god they don't then elect the Hezbollah into power or someone else who despises Western Civilization..

I am not sure the army will give up its power, maybe just support someone the people will accept. Lets just hope for all our sakes that Hezbollah does not get into power. The U.S. will not be the only country effected if they do.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Looking at the size of that crowd in Tahrir Square, I'd say change is going to occur very soon whether it be orderly or disorderly. The status quo, or even a reformed version of it, is not an option

An orderly transition from a dictatorship to democracy is the best outcome everyone and will require the cooperation of the military and Mubarak's supporters.

Hezbollah has no power base in Egypt, but the Muslim Brotherhood does. At this point the Muslim Brotherhood have thrown their support behind Elbaradei forming a transitional unity government. They appear content to play a secondary role for now and participate in future general elections.

If Mubarak refuses to step down, this revolution could turn ugly. Without free and fair elections, Egyptians would likely find themselves in civil war between a group led by religious fanatics and another group loyal to Mubarak. Judging from the size of the crowd chanting for Mubarak to step down, Mubarak's side would loose and there is a good chance that when the dust settled, Egypt would be controlled by extremists.

If the US wants to maintain influence in a post Mubarak Egypt, they should side with the protesters, demand Mubarak resign and hand power over to a transitional unity government. Then they should seek out and support moderate pro-American elements which already exist in Egypt and help them form political parties and run a sophisticated election campaign. Right now most of the people in the crowd have no idea how they would vote in a free and fair election. Seems to me like this is opportunity to win some hearts and minds.

But the Americans better act fast. This crowd will not wait passively and non-violently for Mubarak to resign indefinitely. Time is running out.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Mubarak might leave tonight, some speech coming up.

The most important thing most countries do not want to happen is for the peace between Egypt and Israel to unravel. Who becomes President is secondary as long as the people endorse him.
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Mubarak is expected to say in this speech he won't run in upcoming elections. Sorry not good enough. The crowd will accept nothing less than his resignation and the immediate transfer of power to a unity government. They know that while Mubarak and his supporters control Egypt, they will not have free and fair elections.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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Mubarak's supporters are the Army as I mentioned before, so far they are a big mystery as which way they will go, as for Mubarak I agree he must resign tonight, he has no tomorrow in Egypt. Free elections, in name only. Egypt will never have a truly free election.