Could the rejection of Religion destroy Marriage.

[ironsides]

Was religion one of the binding things that held a marriage together. There are a lot of children today growing up not really knowing what a true family is or means.

Is marriage becoming obsolete? As families gather for Thanksgiving this year, nearly one in three American children is living with a parent who is divorced, separated or never-married. More people are accepting the view that wedding bells aren't needed to have a family.
A study by the Pew Research Center, in association with Time magazine, highlights rapidly changing notions of the American family. And the Census Bureau, too, is planning to incorporate broader definitions of family when measuring poverty, a shift caused partly by recent jumps in unmarried couples living together.

About 29 percent of children under 18 now live with a parent or parents who are unwed or no longer married, a fivefold increase from 1960, according to the Pew report being released Thursday. Broken down further, about 15 percent have parents who are divorced or separated and 14 percent who were never married. Within those two groups, a sizable chunk — 6 percent — have parents who are live-in couples who opted to raise kids together without getting married.

Indeed, about 39 percent of Americans said marriage was becoming obsolete. And that sentiment follows U.S. census data released in September that showed marriages hit an all-time low of 52 percent for adults 18 and over.


Four in 10 say marriage is becoming obsolete - Yahoo! News

 

[Spade]

It is not the demise of religion that threatens pair bonding, formalized by marriage whether religious or civil. Geese are not religious; yet they pair bond. Humans pair bond, not because of religion, but because children are slow to develop and require a stable relationship within which to thrive. It is species specific. As a matter of fact, humans (majority - there are exceptions) pair bond in spite of religion. Both early Judaism and Islam permitted multiple wives; and, in the case of Judaism, as many concubines as one could afford. It seems that among Abrahamic religions men in power felt polygamy was a God-given right!

PS to Ironsides
In a modern society, religion is rapidly losing its power of social control. In Britain and Germany, only 5% of the population attends services of any religion. Their societies are not collapsing. In Canada, it is three times that number, yet steadily declining. I know, from my many friends and relatives in the States, the public acceptance of religion is still a shibboleth whether one accepts the myths in one's heart or not!

 

[Skatchie]

I think that the issue with marriage and religion is simple. Religions feel like it is their word. It is their word. It should very well be their word. No government should ever consider anybody married or single, or common law, or draw any distinctions. The government should only accept that some people are in a civil union. That is all they should have grounds to determine. That takes away the whole gay marriage debate, and the polygamy debate, and leaves marriage where it should be, in some form of religion. If a person wants to have a marriage, good for them, go have one, it shouldn't at all be a factor in anything.

As for single parents, yeah there are too many of them. I don't care what anybody says it is actually selfish and misguided to have children if you do not have a spouse or if you can't maintain that relationship once you have the kids. Sometimes it is better to leave a relationship even if children are there, for sure, but the truth is, that you are doing your kids an injustice.

Not many people think of it but we are all inherently selfish. We have to be. The idea that the union that created somebody was a sham and pathetic and not a true pure thing is a stunt to the development of any child's self worth. This is true in every single solitary occurrence. People shouldn't stay in crummy marriages but having some foresight and not being selfish would be a much better idea.

 

[Praxius]

Was religion one of the binding things that held a marriage together. There are a lot of children today growing up not really knowing what a true family is or means.

Since the concept of marriage has existed long before any of today's religions took it as their own, No.... religion is not binding, nor required to keep a marriage together...... if the only reason why your marriage survives is because of your fear of punishment from God if you divorce, regardless of your actual love for your partner, then you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place, because you're not ready for that responsibility.

Is marriage becoming obsolete?

Technically, yes.

As families gather for Thanksgiving this year, nearly one in three American children is living with a parent who is divorced, separated or never-married.

So? Unless their other parent is dead or cut all ties from seeing their child again, they will see their other parent during thanksgiving. Maybe not at the same time, but who cares? To a kid in that situation, it just means they'll have two big dinners instead of one.

More people are accepting the view that wedding bells aren't needed to have a family.

Which is true..... all you need is a working vagina and a working penis and you're set to have a family..... wedding bells do not automatically turn on or off one's genitals or their ability to produce offspring.

A study by the Pew Research Center, in association with Time magazine, highlights rapidly changing notions of the American family. And the Census Bureau, too, is planning to incorporate broader definitions of family when measuring poverty, a shift caused partly by recent jumps in unmarried couples living together.

Rather then trying to spin it in a bias manner.... you could call them what they are, which are Common Law Spouses.

About 29 percent of children under 18 now live with a parent or parents who are unwed or no longer married, a fivefold increase from 1960, according to the Pew report being released Thursday. Broken down further, about 15 percent have parents who are divorced or separated and 14 percent who were never married. Within those two groups, a sizable chunk — 6 percent — have parents who are live-in couples who opted to raise kids together without getting married.

Indeed, about 39 percent of Americans said marriage was becoming obsolete. And that sentiment follows U.S. census data released in September that showed marriages hit an all-time low of 52 percent for adults 18 and over.

Four in 10 say marriage is becoming obsolete - Yahoo! News

Once again, So?

You went on about statistics on marriage, divorce and children, but where does the religion come into play??

None of this has much to do with your subject title of rejection of religion destroying marriage...... all of the above just shows that many people in the US are understanding that they have have families and live happily without being married.

What does religion have to do with any of it?

Right at the start there's the claim that Children don't understand what a "True Family" is or means......

I think they know very well what a family means.... to them..... but what a family means to them and to myself may not mean the same thing to you.

To me, the whole 2.5 kids, mother working at home and cleaning, father working at the plant and bringing home the bread and maintaining their relationship because of their obligation to God, which usually ends up with fighting, arguing, physical and mental abuse of both the parents and the children that leads to divorce, or murder..... or the kids being taken away by social services...... is not a family.

It might be a family by appearance and by religious standards..... but it's not a family if it's only being held together out of religious obligation.... that's just a spiritual contract so you don't look bad in the eyes of your God....... Others argue that regardless of all the fighting and abuse in their unhappy marriage, having both parents under the same roof is good for the children and that's why they stay together.

I lived in one of those families and I'll be the first to call that total BS and misguided.

Being technically married or not has no bearing on the love and devotion parents have for their children or their upbringing, nor will being married or unmarried have any serious impact on how long most relationships will last.

..... speaking as a married person.

 

[talloola]

Not many people think of it but we are all inherently selfish. We have to be. The idea that the union that created somebody was a sham and pathetic and not a true pure thing is a stunt to the development of any child's self worth. This is true in every single solitary occurrence. People shouldn't stay in crummy marriages but having some foresight and not being selfish would be a much better idea.

there is much truth to what you say. it is sad, but true, the wants and behavior of a married couple
seems to be 'all about them', 'what they want', 'how they feel', and all the while children are
being born, without too much thought about 'how' important it is to bring new life into this world,
and separations happen because of the 'parents', and it is all about 'them', forget for a minute
who is wrong or right, it is for selfish reasons they separate, sex, money, boredom, cheating, etc.,
and those children are just dragged along, shared, have to go from house to house visiting each one,
and it is so common now, it seems that the opposite is becoming the minority.
it see first hand with my own kids and their broken marriages, the choices of who to marry was their
first mistake, then it's all downhill after the glow is off of the marriage.

religion has nothing to do with anything but control from the church and whatever one is praying to.

we have a wonderful whole family, and out of the bunch, a couple are religious, the rest are not,
and we all love each other, doesn't matter about the religious part

you know, I suppose religion has forced many marriages to stay together because of 'fear' of what
the church, god and neighbours might think, very poor reasons to make any decision about yourselves.
if a marriage can be saved and improve, i would think the children 'could' be a best reason you
make that decisions, and not for selfish desires within each partner.

we had friends who actually came to that crossroad in their marriage, they sat down, made a decision to
live together till the children were grown and on their own, then they would make their decision
about themselves, they got along very well, were very realistic, very unselfish, and made it work,
and whether they each had any outside flings, no one ever knew, and they never fought, kept life
calm and happy for the sake of the children. they put their children 'first' before their own personal
needs.
don't think anything will change, I think it will continue to go even further the way it's been
going.

 

[Praxius]

It is not the demise of religion that threatens pair bonding, formalized by marriage whether religious or civil. Geese are not religious; yet they pair bond. Humans pair bond, not because of religion, but because children are slow to develop and require a stable relationship within which to thrive. It is species specific. As a matter of fact, humans (majority - there are exceptions) pair bond in spite of religion. Both early Judaism and Islam permitted multiple wives; and, in the case of Judaism, as many concubines as one could afford. It seems that among Abrahamic religions men in power felt polygamy was a God-given right!

Don't forget that early Christianity used to back off of personal relationships and allowed individuals to do as they please..... be that married or not married..... then of course Christianity got power hungry like all religions, noticed homosexual bondings (among other things) and figured it was their right to meddle in the affairs of everybody and thus, they set out their own rules for marriage, who would be allowed to marry and under what circumstances.

 

[mentalfloss]

It was the feminist movement of the 70s that initially caused higher divorce rates, but yea, I can also see rejection of religion playing a part as well. This will be the norm for a while, but there's no reason why a proper balance of independence in marriage can't exist.

 

[Praxius]

As for single parents, yeah there are too many of them. I don't care what anybody says it is actually selfish and misguided to have children if you do not have a spouse or if you can't maintain that relationship once you have the kids. Sometimes it is better to leave a relationship even if children are there, for sure, but the truth is, that you are doing your kids an injustice.

That's not truth, that's just your opinion. No matter who we're talking about, no matter what religion or faith they believe..... nobody.... not one single person out there can predict the future and know what all will happen.

Things change, it's as simple as that.

You claim if someone can not maintain a relationship they're selfish..... well what happens in situations where you went into the marriage/relationship with all good intentions and with actual love for your partner, but your partner had different plans and later cheats on you or does something else you never expected them to do?

Are they expected to stay in this marriage/relationship with the person who cheated on them, just to satisfy your pipe dream that all marriages/relationships should last forever?

Or are you going to claim that it's the person's fault for not seeing their partner was going to cheat on them?

Or are you going to claim that that's the risks you take and all a part of marriage, to suck it up and deal with it?

Tell me what messages this tells the children involved?

That it's ok to treat your partner like total crap, it's ok to take advantage of your family for your own personal gains and it's normal to live as a door mat and accept all this abuse for the rest of your life because that's what a "Family" is all about?

The most likely answer to why so few these days are marrying would be the fact that most of this generation who are at the age of marrying already came from families like the above and have no interest or intention to subject themselves or their children to the same kind of environment they were brought up in...... that they, like myself, come from families that were held together out of pressure from their own parents and families as at the time, it was normal and part of religion that you marry if and when a child was on the way...... and that they, like myself, came from families that only stayed together for "the sake of the children" or until they graduated high school and moved out.

It might sound noble, but in reality, the child suffers far more physical and mental abuse in that kind of environment then they would if their parents were allowed to see their mistakes and correct their mistakes by taking appropriate action to ensure their children are not pitted in the middle of their parent's fights or have to spend most nights locked in their rooms with their pillows over their heads to help drown out their parents swearing, yelling and fighting.

Not many people think of it but we are all inherently selfish. We have to be. The idea that the union that created somebody was a sham and pathetic and not a true pure thing is a stunt to the development of any child's self worth.

When my parents had me, being their third child, they both decided to neuter themselves so they wouldn't have anymore kids..... tell me what that tells a kid about their self worth.

Sorry, but sex and reproduction isn't some fairy tale that needs to be continually "acted" out for the rest of one's life in order to keep one's kids fooled about the magic and awe of marriage.

You can try, but just like Santa Claus, children will grow to a point where they'll understand what sex and reproduction is all about..... and they'll also come to a point where they'll know Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are a crock of crap built for children's imaginations.

When a kid learns that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy don't exist and it was all made up..... tell me what that does to the kid's development.

It does the exact same thing as telling the kid the truth about relationships, sex and reproduction.

Their development evolves, they grow up, they become better educated about the world around them and they eventually can make informed decisions for themselves for their own lives and for their own children later on.

This is true in every single solitary occurrence.

Exaggeration and not true in every single occurrence.

People shouldn't stay in crummy marriages but having some foresight and not being selfish would be a much better idea.

Well not everybody is as perfect as you, nor can everybody predict the future as clearly as you can.

We are humans..... we are not meant to be perfect and eventually we make mistakes we have to learn from..... some minor, some serious..... but everybody fk's up real good from time to time, including yourself...... and if you haven't yet, you're lucky thus far..... but it'll only be a matter of time before you make a huge mistake in life.

 

[Spade]

It was the feminist movement of the 70s that initially caused higher divorce rates, but yea, I can also see rejection of religion playing a part as well. This will be the norm for a while, but there's no reason why a proper balance of independence in marriage can't exist.

"Women are persons in matters of pains and penalties, but are not persons in matters of rights and privileges."

— 1876 British court ruling. The "mother" of our "democracy."

O, for the good old days! ?

 

[karrie]

I guess whether or not a rejection of religion destroys marriage or not depends on your definition of what makes marriage successful. Is it successful simply because you stay together? I'd strongly suggest that, no, staying together is NOT the ultimate determining factor in a marriage's success.

 

[Spade]

Canon i, Sess. XXIV: "If any one shall say that matrimony is not truly and properly one of the Seven Sacraments of the Evangelical Law, instituted by Christ our Lord, but was invented in the Church by men, and does not confer grace, let him be anathema."
-New Advent, Catholic Encyclopaedia

Careful...

 

[Praxius]

..... it see first hand with my own kids and their broken marriages, the choices of who to marry was their
first mistake, then it's all downhill after the glow is off of the marriage.

I don't mean to get personal, but where/whom do you suppose they learned to make those mistakes from? They're your children after all.

You talk about the responsibilities of the parents, you talk about their selfishness of getting into relationships for all the wrong reasons and then drag their kids along for the ride...... yet where do they get their reference towards relationships from the most?

Mostly from their parents and their own relationship with one another.

Where are your responsibilities of how your children turned out and where are your responsibilities of them making the poor decisions they made in their relationships?

As a parent, didn't you or the other parents have to give away the bride or give your blessing for their marriage?

If you had something to say about their marriage, you should have done so at that time...... actually you should have done it a long time ago and raised your children to hold the same values towards relationships and marriage as you do so that they'd get into a relationship/marriage for similar reasons as you did.

But I guess it doesn't work that way and it's your children's own fault for making the mistakes they did in life that you never did.

Or does your parenting end when they reach adulthood?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I do see some conflict in what you just posted.

religion has nothing to do with anything but control from the church and whatever one is praying to.

we have a wonderful whole family, and out of the bunch, a couple are religious, the rest are not,
and we all love each other, doesn't matter about the religious part

you know, I suppose religion has forced many marriages to stay together because of 'fear' of what
the church, god and neighbours might think, very poor reasons to make any decision about yourselves.
if a marriage can be saved and improve, i would think the children 'could' be a best reason you
make that decisions, and not for selfish desires within each partner.

we had friends who actually came to that crossroad in their marriage, they sat down, made a decision to
live together till the children were grown and on their own, then they would make their decision
about themselves, they got along very well, were very realistic, very unselfish, and made it work,
and whether they each had any outside flings, no one ever knew, and they never fought, kept life
calm and happy for the sake of the children. they put their children 'first' before their own personal
needs.
don't think anything will change, I think it will continue to go even further the way it's been
going.

The problem with situations like the above is that when you're looking in from the outside, you never truly know if everything was hunky dory and happy or if it was truly the best thing for the kids..... just as you don't know if they ever had flings on the side..... all you see if the image they put out there for the community when they step out the door..... just like everybody else does.

In theory and from your limited perspective that you see when they're out in public, it seems like a good idea....... but behind closed doors, after an extended period of time trying to keep the act going for the children and for everybody else around them, and based on my own experience as the child in such a situation...... the reality is quite different.

I support NDP.... what more proof do you need

 

[Skatchie]

there is much truth to what you say. it is sad, but true, the wants and behavior of a married couple
seems to be 'all about them', 'what they want', 'how they feel', and all the while children are
being born, without too much thought about 'how' important it is to bring new life into this world,
and separations happen because of the 'parents', and it is all about 'them', forget for a minute
who is wrong or right, it is for selfish reasons they separate, sex, money, boredom, cheating, etc.,
and those children are just dragged along, shared, have to go from house to house visiting each one,
and it is so common now, it seems that the opposite is becoming the minority.
it see first hand with my own kids and their broken marriages, the choices of who to marry was their
first mistake, then it's all downhill after the glow is off of the marriage.

religion has nothing to do with anything but control from the church and whatever one is praying to.

we have a wonderful whole family, and out of the bunch, a couple are religious, the rest are not,
and we all love each other, doesn't matter about the religious part

you know, I suppose religion has forced many marriages to stay together because of 'fear' of what
the church, god and neighbours might think, very poor reasons to make any decision about yourselves.
if a marriage can be saved and improve, i would think the children 'could' be a best reason you
make that decisions, and not for selfish desires within each partner.

we had friends who actually came to that crossroad in their marriage, they sat down, made a decision to
live together till the children were grown and on their own, then they would make their decision
about themselves, they got along very well, were very realistic, very unselfish, and made it work,
and whether they each had any outside flings, no one ever knew, and they never fought, kept life
calm and happy for the sake of the children. they put their children 'first' before their own personal
needs.
don't think anything will change, I think it will continue to go even further the way it's been
going.

I think it will go back the other way. The new age of person is becoming more enlightened. I think people will recognize the importance of the family and move back towards that. Religion is on the outs though. People don't need other people controlling them in institutions.

 

[Cannuck]

Was religion one of the binding things that held a marriage together. There are a lot of children today growing up not really knowing what a true family is or means.

What is a "true family"?

 

[Praxius]

What is a "true family"?

Exactly..... what is a True Family?

That answer varies from person to person, regardless of what the dictionary states a family to be, regardless of what a religion claims it to be.

As I see a family, it's a collective of related people living together or separately, who are directly involved in each others lives in one way or another and contribute in a positive way....... but exceptions exist when it comes to being related by blood to one another.

You can be completely unrelated to a child (Adopted, Married into the Family, etc.), yet play an active role in raising them, educating them and generally just being there for them and that child can view you as a father figure, or an uncle or an older cousin, or a bigger brother..... (or mother/aunt/sister)

Everybody living under the same roof or being biologically connected is pretty trivial when you look at all the factors.

Let's say two parents no longer live together for whatever reason and the child has to go from house to house to see each parent.

^ What's the difference between doing that and going to visit other family members like uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc? They don't live under the same roof, yet there is no difficulty placed on the child when they go visit them, and they still consider them family.

^ Or better yet, what's the difference between doing the above and a married couple who are happy, yet the father or the mother is always off on business trips and meetings that their child only sees them a couple of times a month?

^ At least the child can still see their separated parents in the above situation a lot better then the other situation I just described and those separated parents are more involved in their children's lives then the parent(s) flying around the world to meet work obligations.

Simply being "Married" does not automatically equate to a happy and successful "Family", nor does being "Married" mean that child will have a wonderful and fulfilling childhood and upbringing.

And don't forget that there are families out there who have lost a parent due to an accident or some other unfortunate turn of events that were out of everybody's control...... because they lost a father due to going off to war, or because they lost a mother in a car accident or serious illness..... are they less of a family and can you calculate the amount of love given in that family as being less, more, or the same?

 

[Cliffy]

What is a "true family"?

Up until the industrial revolution, family meant the extended family or tribe. The nuclear family is unnatural and is why the institution of marriage is in trouble. The decline of religion has nothing to do with the decline of marriage.

 

[TenPenny]

What is a true family? I think the muslims have the right idea: my friend against my enemy; my cousin against my friend; my brother against my cousin.

 

[wulfie68]

As for single parents, yeah there are too many of them. I don't care what anybody says it is actually selfish and misguided to have children if you do not have a spouse or if you can't maintain that relationship once you have the kids. Sometimes it is better to leave a relationship even if children are there, for sure, but the truth is, that you are doing your kids an injustice.

I kind of agree with you that the number of single parents is distressing but who am I to pass judgement and say "there are too many"? I know there are studies/stats out there to support the model family in terms of single parents ability to provide/support their children and their ability to graduate from various levels of education, become substance abusers, get involved in criminal behaviours, etc. but that doesn't guarantee the issue one way or the other, merely present likelihoods of the behaviours manifesting. There are bound to be numerous exceptions that fly in the face of the overall trends, people who are better for not having one parent or the other involved i their life. Actually staying in a bad relationship "for the sake of the children", and giving an example of two unhappy adults, who may demonstrate their unhappiness through abusiveness, promiscuity or other negative behaviours can be as bad if not worse than having the parents split up.

As for the obsolescence of marriage, maybe it always has been since as others have posted, marriage is not necessary for procreation and thus the creation of a family of some sort.

Now in terms of what does religion have to do with any of this? Well, I can see the decline in religious acceptance meaning that the number of people who are ruled by religious doctrine and thus stay in an unhappy marriage because of it, would be decreasing: it only stands to reason. But marriages/relationships fail for a number of reasons, and chief among them is finances: what does religion have to do with the economy? The next leading cause of marriage failure in studies/articles I have seen is adultery, and again people have been adulterous, regardless of religious affiliation and influence for millenia (see people like the Borgia family or almost any of the royal noble families of Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance for documentation of christian examples).

 

[TenPenny]

As for single parents, yeah there are too many of them. I don't care what anybody says it is actually selfish and misguided to have children if you do not have a spouse or if you can't maintain that relationship once you have the kids. Sometimes it is better to leave a relationship even if children are there, for sure, but the truth is, that you are doing your kids an injustice.

I know single parents who do a great job, and have well adjusted kids. I know married people who should be executed for the way they treat their kids.

I think you are completely misguided - it's not the marital status that makes a difference, it's how you raise your children. An asshole with a wedding ring is still an asshole.

 

[talloola]

If you had something to say about their marriage, you should have done so at that time...... actually you should have done it a long time ago and raised your children to hold the same values towards relationships and marriage as you do so that they'd get into a relationship/marriage for similar reasons as you did.

But I guess it doesn't work that way and it's your children's own fault for making the mistakes they did in life that you never did.

Or does your parenting end when they reach adulthood?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I do see some conflict in what you just posted.

The problem with situations like the above is that when you're looking in from the outside, you never truly know if everything was hunky dory and happy or if it was truly the best thing for the kids..... just as you don't know if they ever had flings on the side..... all you see if the image they put out there for the community when they step out the door..... just like everybody else does.

In theory and from your limited perspective that you see when they're out in public, it seems like a good idea....... but behind closed doors, after an extended period of time trying to keep the act going for the children and for everybody else around them, and based on my own experience as the child in such a situation...... the reality is quite different.

I support NDP.... what more proof do you need

Yep, that's right. there are so many problems behind those closed doors, and somehow thru the generations
we have all created all of those problems, why can't life just be simpler, guess it's because we have so
much and want so much, and of course when one partner is abusive or impossible, that is the selfish parent,
and visa versa, it takes two parents who are 'not' packing baggage, or selfish desires of their own, that
they consider over and obove the importance of the marriage.
It is very very hard. Over the generations we have done that. And that's too bad, there are so many
broken homes, that it seems we should tear up the plans, and design a new method of family life, because
the one we have now doesn't seem to work.
there are a multi million stories, and a millions of heartbreaks, and a million lonely partners, who have been left
behind, because their partners want to move on, a million reasons why they should part.

us parents can set the best examples we can find, doesn't guarantee anything, and sometimes as in my
childhood it was the opposite that set my mind, because I didn't ever want to live like my parents did,
so I didn't.
I am sympathetic and compassionite person, I understand all of the problems that arise within a marriage,
and I don't want to see anyone suffer inside of a marriage.

Of course there are holes in what I said, because what I suggested is impossible, just wishfull thinking I
guess.
I've just seen too much over the years, and my reaction when young people announce a marriage has become
'dull', as I see all of their plans for the future, but 'I' can't see their future any longer, and I just
see a few years together, a couple of kids, then 'bye bye charlie', see ya.
When young people find out how many years I have been married, they almost fall over dead.

Not sure what my paranting has done to create problems in my daughters marriages, as it is far too
complex to just say I didn't do 'this' or 'that', maybe I should have been an alchoholic like my dad,
or a sad and battered mom like mine was, then maybe they would have had more success.
is that how it works?
What I did do was raise them to be very independent, and that independence takes them a long way, on
their own, and they will not be intimidated by anyone, and demand pure equality, and most men are not
ready for real equality, just a bit of equality.

oh I know, I should have known the fear of the lord, and instilled that in my daughters, so that they
would have never ended any of their 'bad' marriages, for fear of the lord.
I just said that to get back on topic. lol

I think it will go back the other way. The new age of person is becoming more enlightened. I think people will recognize the importance of the family and move back towards that. Religion is on the outs though. People don't need other people controlling them in institutions.

maybe you're right