Should Canada resign from the G8 and G20?

[Machjo]

Now that the security bill alone for the G8 and G20 summits this year has reached 1 billion Canadian dollars in response to the regular disruptions of these summits every year around the world, and considering that the existence of the UN really makes these summits redundant anyway, should Canada resign from the G8 and G20?

 

[barney]

Well, technically the UN is the only international organization that can legitimately engage in global governance.

There is a clear conflict because the G8 and G20 are associations based around the IMF, which is mainly a US agent for the manipulation of state economies via 'neoliberal' restructuring. The heavy presence of players from the financial sectors--not all of them are public servants--and the large amount of lobbying that takes place is an affront to the democratic institutions of states, as well as to the UN's jurisdiction.

Like the Bilderburg Group, these organizations quite clearly serve as platforms on which to base future financial planning outside of a legitimate state or international system of accountability. The elitist nature of the organizations' base makes them quite ominous to the affected populations, who have virtually no say in what kind of negotiations take place.

So yes, as a UN member and a constitutional-democratic state Canada should resign.

But considering Canada is a star player in that process, things have to change here for that to happen (and that implies a major breach from present US-aligned policy). So will it happen? Considering the general complacency of the Canadian public when it comes to their own government, not a chance.

 

[taxslave]

There is some manipulation of the numbers here. The army and the RCMP personnel are on our payroll already and if they were not doing this they would just be playing war games somewhere for about the same amount of money except it would come out of the training budget instead of security.

 

[Praxius]

I can't remember who said it not too long ago, maybe my wife, but someone said that with all the crap loads of money that are put into these things (just on security alone) these countries could have invested all this money each put in for these meetings, into one lump sum, bought an island somewhere, and placed their own security and organizations to this one spot, and still save a crap load of money..... rather then pulling these pointless and very stupid stunts of shutting down large areas of a city, the people, the businesses in the area, transportation, spending billions of tax payer's money, while the city loses out on millions of dollars in business and sales for these couple of days where our idiot leaders prance around acting like they're doing something important, when all they're really doing is having a friggin frat party on our backs.

 

[wulfie68]

A couple things...

a) Where does everyone think the money spent goes? If you're not saying "into the economy of the host nation" you're missing something. Sure there are expenses incurred in hosting these events, but the expenses go into our businesses. It doesn't have the "feel good" of something like the Olympics but there is an economic bump for the host city.

b) Some of the expenses wouldn't be needed if all manner of anarchist, lobbiest and political wingnut didn't feel a need to come to these events and protest/promote their own cause/agenda. I have nothing against lawful demonstrations but too many of these groups don't respect the law and the restraints that it does place on them.

c) Withdrawing from a group like this is an idiotic idea. The UN is bound up in dealing with the egos of every little pissant collection of huts under the sun. The G8 and G20 deal with matters that impact our nations directly: like it or not, groups will get together and try and decide on what is best for everyone, and its far better to have a seat at the table, than to have someone else decide for you with no input.

 

[TenPenny]

Well put. The economy of Toronto will be bolstered by all the hotels etc booked by the security details from every country, the media, etc, car rentals, restaurants, etc etc, plus every security guard licensed in Ont is probably working overtime...so it's great for the economy that way, plus the number of companies that have rented office space outside the downtown, so their employees can go to work...as you've said, the vast majority of the money spent goes into our own economy anyway, so let's just call it stimulus spending, and we'll all be in favour of it.

 

[darkbeaver]

Yeah the cash will trickle down to the streets like it always does. Are you going to smoke all of that?

 

[TenPenny]

Yeah the cash will trickle down to the streets like it always does. Are you going to smoke all of that?

Ah, you're right. I forgot. There are NO Canadians employed in any way connected to the summit, and NO Canadian suppliers, hotels, or service providers are being used. None whatsoever. I'm sure that the GTAA isn't charging any landing fees to the aircraft that come in, too.

Nothing. Not a bit. No sir.

Are you going to use the foil hat tonight? I'd like to use it to barbecue some potatoes.

 

[JLM]

Now that the security bill alone for the G8 and G20 summits this year has reached 1 billion Canadian dollars in response to the regular disruptions of these summits every year around the world, and considering that the existence of the UN really makes these summits redundant anyway, should Canada resign from the G8 and G20?

Yeah, I've sure been wracking my brain trying to make sense of this whole charade. During my years in the work force by the time I retired I came to the conclusion that about 90% of meetings are totally useless & I think with these "Einsteins" it's probably closer to 99%. With speaker phones these days this nonsense is unnecessary. That "lake" they built just put the "icing" on it. :lol::lol:

 

[Machjo]

There is some manipulation of the numbers here. The army and the RCMP personnel are on our payroll already and if they were not doing this they would just be playing war games somewhere for about the same amount of money except it would come out of the training budget instead of security.

That's not how it came across on the CBC last night. It seemed this was extra security costs specifically related to the G8 and G20.

A couple things...

a) Where does everyone think the money spent goes? If you're not saying "into the economy of the host nation" you're missing something. Sure there are expenses incurred in hosting these events, but the expenses go into our businesses. It doesn't have the "feel good" of something like the Olympics but there is an economic bump for the host city.

Let's see:

I (i.e.the government) take money from Canadians from coast to coast to coast and spend it in Toronto. Sure it will help bolster the Toronto economy, but what about the rest of the Canadian economy?

Or, seeing how the government went over budget last year, it might be more accurate to say that 'I' borrowed money to spend in Toronto and all of Canada will have to pay it back later with interest, thus boosting the Toronto economy only to weaken the overall Canadian economy. What trade offs!

b) Some of the expenses wouldn't be needed if all manner of anarchist, lobbiest and political wingnut didn't feel a need to come to these events and protest/promote their own cause/agenda. I have nothing against lawful demonstrations but too many of these groups don't respect the law and the restraints that it does place on them.

Agreed. But idealism and reality must meet somewhere. Now you're sounding like those who blame Vietnam on the War Protesters. Clearly those in favour of the Vietnam war are equally to blame for not having taken the protesters into consideration when planning out the Vietnam war, thus showing what poor military strategists they were. The same applies here. Yes, the protestors are especially to blame for their illegal activities. This does not take responsibility off of the shoulders of the government to find ways around this barrier. For example, why not hold the summits where security is installed already, such as CFB Esquimalt for example, or on some other already well-secured military etablishment? The government is still to blame for not finding ways to work around this obstacle. And yes, I'd agree with tougher laws against those who disrespect the law, but that's another matter.

c) Withdrawing from a group like this is an idiotic idea. The UN is bound up in dealing with the egos of every little pissant collection of huts under the sun. The G8 and G20 deal with matters that impact our nations directly: like it or not, groups will get together and try and decide on what is best for everyone, and its far better to have a seat at the table, than to have someone else decide for you with no input.

If Canada does not participate in these summits, then it will also have no obligation to participate in any decision made at the summits either. Add to that that our participation itself contributes to the legitimacy of these summits. Our non-participation would thus illegitimize them that much more at least in Canada's context.

 

[JLM]

That's not how it came across on the CBC last night. It seemed this was extra security costs specifically related to the G8 and G20.

I think you are both right. Most of these security people probably are working for the public purse full time, BUT if they weren't engaged in this nonsense they might be doing something useful like solving a crime somewhere or arresting some little bastard stealing hubcaps off cars. :smile:

 

[Machjo]

Well put. The economy of Toronto will be bolstered by all the hotels etc booked by the security details from every country, the media, etc, car rentals, restaurants, etc etc, plus every security guard licensed in Ont is probably working overtime...so it's great for the economy that way, plus the number of companies that have rented office space outside the downtown, so their employees can go to work...as you've said, the vast majority of the money spent goes into our own economy anyway, so let's just call it stimulus spending, and we'll all be in favour of it.

Yes, it's going into your local economy. But when you consider that that money is coming from the rest of Canada, it means that money is being taken out of other local economies via taxes to bolster your local economy, thus taking jobs away from other parts of Canada to create them in Toronto. Add to that that these jobs are not even an investment,but a sheer waste.

If I sweep dirt from one side of the floor to another, you could say that I've made the floor cleaner, but only if you look at only one part of the floor. The same her. By taking money out of other local economies to spend it in Toronto, sure it's creating jobs in Toronto, but only by taking jobs away from other part of the country. Sweeping the dirt from one end of the room to the other.

Ah, you're right. I forgot. There are NO Canadians employed in any way connected to the summit, and NO Canadian suppliers, hotels, or service providers are being used. None whatsoever. I'm sure that the GTAA isn't charging any landing fees to the aircraft that come in, too.

Nothing. Not a bit. No sir.

Are you going to use the foil hat tonight? I'd like to use it to barbecue some potatoes.

As I've mentioned before, this is not really creating jobs but merely takin money from other parts of the country to spend it in another, thus taking away jobs from other places to shift them elsewhere. Add to that that even if the goal is to create jobs, we'd hope that the government invest the money too.

To take an example:

The government could hire 50 people to dig a hole in the ground, and another 50 to fill the hole. Or it could train 100 people to become teachers and hire 100 new teachers to teach the next generation of Canadians.

Job creation ought never to be an end in itself, but always a means to an end. As an end in itself, it's a complete waste of money and a lost opportunity that could have been invested elsewhere.

Would you support the government hiring people to dig holes and fill them up all day on your dime?

Just to clarify something. It does not take a genius to figure out how the government can create jobs. Heck, even Hitler did a marvelous job of it putting everyone into the military. The trick though is to create value-added jobs which will contribute to the development of the economy and thus not contribute to inflation and economic stagnation. That's the tricky part.

 

[Bar Sinister]

I can't see that leaving the G8/G20 would help much. All it would mean is that major decisions would be made without any Canadian input. If we host a meeting we might want to consider holding it in Yellowknife. Then the world leaders could get a really good look at a northern Canadian Lake.

 

[Machjo]

I can't see that leaving the G8/G20 would help much. All it would mean is that major decisions would be made without any Canadian input. If we host a meeting we might want to consider holding it in Yellowknife. Then the world leaders could get a really good look at a northern Canadian Lake.

If Canada does not participate in the G8 and G20, then it also has no obligation to adhere to its decisions anyway, so what's with all the concern over these 'major decisions'? If they concern decisions on Canadian soil, only Canadian and international laws affect that, not any G8 or G20 decision. And if it's a concern over international affairs, as long as we abide by international laws, we have no obligation to the G8 or G20 if we don't participate. Or should I say G7 and G19 if we leave.

 

[Colpy]

I don't get the cash layout......I really don't.......For that you could give every bloody personal assistant a pope Mobile to ride around in....

 

[Liberalman]

Canada should host G8 and G20 in the future but not on the same weekend.

They could have had it in different parts of Canada.

If it is held in Toronto again it should be away from the downtown core because of major disruptions

 

[DurkaDurka]

Well put. The economy of Toronto will be bolstered by all the hotels etc booked by the security details from every country, the media, etc, car rentals, restaurants, etc etc, plus every security guard licensed in Ont is probably working overtime...so it's great for the economy that way, plus the number of companies that have rented office space outside the downtown, so their employees can go to work...as you've said, the vast majority of the money spent goes into our own economy anyway, so let's just call it stimulus spending, and we'll all be in favour of it.

On the other hand, it's not so good for the small businesses and bars/restaurants that are located in the security zone as only people with security passes will be able to enter the area. Also, the city has evicted all the hot dog vendors in the area for a week leading up to and a couple days after the end of the event.

 

[Said1]

Yeah the cash will trickle down to the streets like it always does. Are you going to smoke all of that?

Sure it will. Many of the attendees and businesses profiting from the summit will use the services of prostitutes, buy illegal narcotics and other unmentionables. Sheesh!

 

[Praxius]

A couple things...

a) Where does everyone think the money spent goes? If you're not saying "into the economy of the host nation" you're missing something. Sure there are expenses incurred in hosting these events, but the expenses go into our businesses. It doesn't have the "feel good" of something like the Olympics but there is an economic bump for the host city.

They sure don't explain it that way.... and considering the amount of downtown Toronto that's going to be blocked off and/or shut down completely, the increase in traffic issues because of the blocked off areas and the motorcades driving around.... there will be many downtown businesses that will be shut down completely, thus gaining no profit from this event..... add to that the employees who won't be working during these shut down areas.

These expenses are not going into our businesses, they're going into security and they're going into this stupid fake lake crap that will most likely never be used again after these events are over with.

The only hope of any profit to come from this comes from these elitist and their groupies spending their money..... and if we're really lucky, we just might break even.

And that's a big IF

All I know for sure is that I want the Conservative government to make the books (expenses and profit) open to the Canadian public after all this crap is said and done.

If they offer to show the public the books after it's all done, then they can of course prove they were right to host this event...... if they fight tooth and nail to keep it secret (which I'm 95% sure they'll try and do) then that would be the first sign that they once again lied their arses off, are trying to cover their tracks and hiding something.

I'll make a prediction right now:

They'll either try and fight to not release the final numbers, or they'll only release a fraction of the overall costs and gains...... then a request for informations will be made and it'll be found out that things were far worse then told..... then an election will be made, the Cons will be voted out, the Liberals will be voted back in, an inquiry will be held and it'll be found that the Cons pulled off their own Sponsorship-like Scandal..... and once again the political cycle will continue.

Then a couple of years down the road, the Liberals will pull the same stunt yet again, an election will be held, they'll be voted out, the Cons will take back over, and Inquiry will be made, yet another Sponsorship-like scandal will be found out..... and by the time everybody forgets about that, the Cons will pull the same stunt again...... an election will be pulled, everybody will forget what the Liberals did, vote them back in..... Inquiry, Scandal...... etc. etc. etc. etc.

It's so predictable it's sad.

b) Some of the expenses wouldn't be needed if all manner of anarchist, lobbiest and political wingnut didn't feel a need to come to these events and protest/promote their own cause/agenda. I have nothing against lawful demonstrations but too many of these groups don't respect the law and the restraints that it does place on them.

A bit of an exaggeration, considering the majority of groups going there to protest are almost always law-abiding. This high level of security is being made at the excuse of a small select few groups or people that make up a very small % of protesters overall.... and the lame old excuse of Terr'ism.

And perhaps the reason why there's so many groups protesting, and so many people completely against these events coming out to voice themselves has to do with the possibility that these people are right and they have valid concerns and valid rights to voice themselves in the first place.

Don't like Protesters? Go to Iran or N.Korea.

These security measures have very little to do with simple protesters.... they have to do with the off-chance of some wing nut committing some sort of violence.

What I see is a continual pattern with security and the costs of security at these events. One country hosts these meetings one year and spend a crap load of money on security.... then during the next event in another country, that said country has to spend even more to out show the previous country and to make sure they don't give the impression that they're more lax then the previous hosts..... and so on.

c) Withdrawing from a group like this is an idiotic idea. The UN is bound up in dealing with the egos of every little pissant collection of huts under the sun. The G8 and G20 deal with matters that impact our nations directly: like it or not, groups will get together and try and decide on what is best for everyone, and its far better to have a seat at the table, than to have someone else decide for you with no input.

It's even better when you tell this group to kiss your ass and you'll make your own damn decisions for your own damn sovereign nation.

As mentioned before, we already have the UN and regardless of what you think of all the other nations that aren't popular enough to fit in the fancy treehouse with the cool kids, they should all be allowed to have their say and voice their opinions on matters that affect them, rather then have these elitist wanks deciding and dictating for them what is the best course of action.... when the best course of action is to keep these countries under their thumb, dish out very little, act like it's a lot, yet take even more from these same countries in the process, thus making these countries stronger and richer, while these other countries are left out of the loop.

And no, I'm not some huge fan of the UN..... an organization that's supposed to deal with the issues of all nations, allow all to have a say, yet allow a select few nations to hold more powers like vetoes over others, thus not treating everybody equally..... is a big problem in my books.

But the UN is a hell of a lot better then these clown parades.

 

[TenPenny]

Yes, it's going into your local economy. But when you consider that that money is coming from the rest of Canada, it means that money is being taken out of other local economies via taxes to bolster your local economy, thus taking jobs away from other parts of Canada to create them in Toronto. Add to that that these jobs are not even an investment,but a sheer waste.

To follow your logic, the government should never do any stimulus spending.
Which I actually agree with.

Let all local economies sink or swim on their own.