Jimmy Carter's recent statements regarding Gaza

[earth_as_one]

On November 4, 2008, Israel sent commandos into Gaza and killed six members of Hamas in violation of a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. Israel justified their actions with unsubstantiated claims that Hamas was building a tunnel into Israel for the purpose of abducting Israel soldiers.

But Israel never offered any proof to support their claims about the tunnel.

Also Israel carried out the raid the same day Americans elected Obama. A predictable big news day for the US and the world.

UN observers:

...IDF operation in the Gaza Strip and rocket firing at Israel: In the night of 4-5 November, six Palestinians were killed and seven others injured, including two civilians, in the first large-scale Israeli military operation in Gaza since the 19 June ceasefire. According to the IDF, during the Israeli military incursion into Gaza, the IDF destroyed a tunnel leading to the border between Gaza and Israel, which could have been utilized for military attacks on Israel.

On the eve of 4 November, an IDF reconnaissance unit entered Deir el-Balah in central Gaza Strip. Armed clashes broke out between Palestinian militants and Israeli forces. During the first clash, one Palestinian militant was killed and five others injured; four IDF soldiers were also injured. In addition, a Palestinian house was destroyed, and seven of its 23 inhabitants were detained, including several women, one of whom was injured. During the clashes, the IDF demolished green houses, a poultry farm, and water well. Another house was occupied and used as a military post. In retaliation, Palestinian militants fired rockets and mortars towards Israel—some of which landed inside Gaza; no Israeli casualties were reported. Israel fired a missile east of Khan Younis at a group of militants manning a rocket launcher, killing five Palestinians. The clashes continued until the Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza in the early morning hours of 5 November. Qassam fire from Gaza towards Israel continued on 5 November (beyond the reporting period).

OPT: Protection of civilians - OCHA Weekly report (29 Oct-4 Nov 2008) (6 November 2008)

Sounds like a deliberate Israeli ceasefire violation to me. But was it justified?

According to a recent Jimmy Carter interview, the tunnel existed but it was completely within Gaza's borders and was defensive in nature, not offensive:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]An Interview with Jimmy Carter [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]The Future of Gaza [/SIZE][/FONT]

....Well, I know what happened in this last ceasefire. I was the one that helped to orchestrate it...

...the agreement was that they would stop all attacks on each other, that Hamas would stop all the rockets and that Israel would open up the supply line going in to supply food and water and medicines and fuel to the one and a half million Palestinians. That was the agreement. Hamas kept their promise I would say 99 percent. Three months there was just one mortar round or rocket fire – no damage done. But Israel did not keep their promise on opening up their supply lines; they only increased to about twenty percent.

But still Hamas kept their promise until the fourth day of November, at which time Israel attacked Gaza militarily because they claimed that there was a tunnel being built. It turned out that the tunnel was completely within the walls of Gaza and there are probably a thousand other tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. But that was what precipitated the breakdown in the ceasefire....

Riz Khan: An Interview with Jimmy Carter

Also from Jimmy Carter:

An Unnecessary War
By Jimmy Carter
hursday, January 8, 2009

....We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted....

Jimmy Carter - An Unnecessary War - washingtonpost.com

If Carter is correct, then Israel never held up its side of the truce, they continued to use food as a weapon in violation of international law and their truce agreement with Hamas. Then Israel deliberately and violently broke their truce with Hamas on US election day.

When negotiators tried to get Hamas and Israel to return to the truce, Israel offered to stop attacking Hamas, but refused to stop using food and medicine as a weapon.

Carter's testimony means Israel's recent slaughter in Gaza was deliberate and planned. In other words a premeditated war crime.

I'm open to other explanations... Any Israel apologists care to respond to Carter's version of events?

 

[Walter]

Jimmy Carter, the Joe Clark of the USA.

 

[Just the Facts]

Any Israel apologists care to respond to Carter's version of events?

I'm not an Israel apologist but I'll respond anyway.

He's wrong. Plain and simple. Carter claims "Three months there was just one mortar round or rocket fire – no damage done."

Jimmy not got the facts.

One Rocket July 3
Israel closes Gaza crossings after Qassam hits Negev - Israel News, Ynetnews

Two Mortars July 8
Mortar shell hits W. Negev in fresh Gaza truce violation - Haaretz - Israel News

Two Rockets on July 10
Hamas arrests Gaza rocket cell - Israel News, Ynetnews

One Rocket July 12
Qassam hits western Negev in new Gaza truce violation - Haaretz - Israel News

Two Mortars July 13
2 mortar shells land in Nahal Oz area - Israel News, Ynetnews


Shall we continue on to August?

 

[gopher]

''Israel never offered any proof to support their claims about the tunnel.''

They never do.

 

[earth_as_one]

Carter's main point was that the Gaza tunnel was defensive and therefore not a ceasefire violation as claimed by Israel. Israel still has not offered any proof which support their claim that the tunnel was offensive.

His other points was that Israel never fully complied with the truce. During the truce Israel only allowing 20% of the required humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Carter was correct that Hamas was 99% compliant with the truce. Hamas reduced the number of rockets and mortars from 250 per month to about 3 per month. In October 2008 only 2 rockets and no mortars were fired from Gaza. That's about a 99% reduction. During this time, not a single Israeli was killed.

Even Israeli officials also agreed that Hamas was not responsible for these few attacks.

YouTube - Who Broke The Cease Fire - Hamas or Israel 2008

Also, during the weeks leading up to the official end of the ceasefire on December 19, 2008, Hamas attempted to renew the ceasefire. There conditions were that Israel finally respect their original agreed terms. That is stop attacking Gaza and allow humanitarian food and medical aid to enter Gaza.

WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously.

Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.

The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza".

Pastor said he passed Meshal's statement on to a "senior official" in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) the day after the meeting with Meshal. According to Pastor, the Israeli official said he would get back to him, but did not....

MIDEAST: Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December

 

[Colpy]

Carter's main point was that the Gaza tunnel was defensive and therefore not a ceasefire violation as claimed by Israel. Israel still has not offered any proof which support their claim that the tunnel was offensive.

And, my main point, as made in the other thread, is that Carter is an idiot.

What the Hell is a DEFENSIVE tunnel??????? Where the six Hamas militants planning to flee into ISRAEL????

The entire conceprt that Carter is trying to put forth is moronic.

The Hamas were attempting to infiltrate into Israel, that is a violation, the IDF was perfectly correct in stomping their sorry ass. HAMAS broke the truce.

"Defensive Tunnel"!!!!

Now I've heard it all........

 

[Cliffy]

"Defensive Tunnel"!!!!

Now I've heard it all........

Colpy,
Underground tunnels, which linked every household in the neighborhood and ensured flexible maneuvers for attacks, defense and retreat, played an important role during China's war of resistance to Japanese invasion between 1937 and 1945. The two best known tunnels are located in Jiaozhuanghu village in the outskirts of Beijing and Ranzhuang village in neighboring Hebei Province. Working on the tunnels remained popular for two decades after the People's Republic was founded in 1949, when the nation was still threatened by war.
Most of the surviving defense works have become tourist destinations and been listed as bases of patriotic education in a nationwide campaign to boost "red tourism" at former revolutionary bases. The campaign was launched in 2004 and is expected to last until 2010.

Beijing opens defense tunnel to tourists

 

[Praxius]

I'm not an Israel apologist but I'll respond anyway.

He's wrong. Plain and simple. Carter claims "Three months there was just one mortar round or rocket fire – no damage done."

Jimmy not got the facts.

One Rocket July 3
Israel closes Gaza crossings after Qassam hits Negev - Israel News, Ynetnews

Two Mortars July 8
Mortar shell hits W. Negev in fresh Gaza truce violation - Haaretz - Israel News

Two Rockets on July 10
Hamas arrests Gaza rocket cell - Israel News, Ynetnews

One Rocket July 12
Qassam hits western Negev in new Gaza truce violation - Haaretz - Israel News

Two Mortars July 13
2 mortar shells land in Nahal Oz area - Israel News, Ynetnews


Shall we continue on to August?

Do you happen to have any sources to confirm this potential Israeli propaganda?

They're the one's who stand accused and to defend them, you use only their news sources?

They've already been lying to the rest of the world with half the crap they have been pulling off.... you don't think they wouldn't have a problem lying to their own people?

Let's break it down shall we?

One Rocket July 3
^ I Read the link... no damage, no casualties..... any proof? Just a stock photo of a guy carrying a rocket on any random day.

Two Mortars July 8
^ I read the link..... No damage, no casualties..... any proof? Well... they claimed two mortars were fired, and yet they show a photo of a rocket?

Two Rockets on July 10
Wow.... Hamas actually arrested the people who fired the rockets..... and that's a bad thing to justify bombing the hell out of Hamas and their civilians? Once again, no damage, no casualties..... where's the proof? All of this is coming from Israel, and they have no video, photos, holes in the ground to show, nothing?

One Rocket July 12
"There also was no claim of responsibility."
Once again, they mention when Hamas arrested the people who did the deed..... where's the evidence? Poof?

Two Mortars July 13
Oh nice, they label the photo as being an archive photo, at least they were straight forward with that one. Once again, "There were no reports of injuries or damage."

^ You have somebody there to report that these attacks occured, they tell you where they landed, someone had to be there to claim no damage or injuries occured..... you'd think someone could get like a $2 disposable camera out there and take a shot.

But one thing I noticed during this conflict, is that there were reporters within Gaza and within Israel when it all occured. Now during the conflict, there was no problem getting all kinds of footage of the rockets being fired at all.... you even had reporters who were locked in Gaza telling you all these things...... are you going to tell me that they must have been charging their cameras' batteries during the above rocket attacks?

I have very little faith in anything Israeli authorities or media have to say anymore. Their entire nation is built apon soldier citizens, AKA: Manditory service in the forces...... what better society to not question the crap you shove down their throats then a society that is already acustomed to accepting orders and control?

 

[Praxius]

And, my main point, as made in the other thread, is that Carter is an idiot.

What the Hell is a DEFENSIVE tunnel??????? Where the six Hamas militants planning to flee into ISRAEL????

The entire conceprt that Carter is trying to put forth is moronic.

The Hamas were attempting to infiltrate into Israel, that is a violation, the IDF was perfectly correct in stomping their sorry ass. HAMAS broke the truce.

"Defensive Tunnel"!!!!

Now I've heard it all........

This isn't the first time I've heard of it:

Tunnel warfare
Tunnel warfare is a type of warfare that occurs in tunnels. It can be sometimes linked with urban warfare, as tunnels are often found in urban area and cities, although urban warfare as a whole usually dominates any tunnel considerations. Tunnels can be used to undermine fortifications and slip into territory, while it can strengthen a defense by creating the possibility of ambush, counterattack and the ability to transfer troops from one portion of the battleground to another unseen and protected.

Tunnel warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Carter seems to know more then you think he does. If they were still within their borders, they have every right to have them and Israel had no justification.

 

[Avro]

Jimmy Carter is a great man and has done more for peace than any con.....ever.

 

[Colpy]

"Defensive Tunnel"!!!!

Now I've heard it all........

Colpy,
Underground tunnels, which linked every household in the neighborhood and ensured flexible maneuvers for attacks, defense and retreat, played an important role during China's war of resistance to Japanese invasion between 1937 and 1945. The two best known tunnels are located in Jiaozhuanghu village in the outskirts of Beijing and Ranzhuang village in neighboring Hebei Province. Working on the tunnels remained popular for two decades after the People's Republic was founded in 1949, when the nation was still threatened by war.
Most of the surviving defense works have become tourist destinations and been listed as bases of patriotic education in a nationwide campaign to boost "red tourism" at former revolutionary bases. The campaign was launched in 2004 and is expected to last until 2010.

Beijing opens defense tunnel to tourists

I am aware of the use of tunnels in warfare, most extensively by the Vietnamese in the 60's and 70's verses the USA, a system so extensive it was jokingly said you could enter in saigon and come out in Hanoi.........the difference is this tunnel was breaching the border.......

 

[Cliffy]

I am aware of the use of tunnels in warfare, most extensively by the Vietnamese in the 60's and 70's verses the USA, a system so extensive it was jokingly said you could enter in saigon and come out in Hanoi.........the difference is this tunnel was breaching the border.......

Only according to Israel. I think, based on past performance as a diplomat, I would take Jimmy Carter's word over Israeli propaganda.

 

[Colpy]

Only according to Israel. I think, based on past performance as a diplomat, I would take Jimmy Carter's word over Israeli propaganda.

And this is what it all comes down to:

unlike Jimmy Carter, I prefer to believe, or at least give the benefit of the doubt, To our friend and ally, the democratic nation of Israel, rather than a bunch of Iranian puppets, Islamo-fascist lunatics seeking martyrdom.

it's all in who you choose to believe.

 

[Cliffy]

And this is what it all comes down to:

unlike Jimmy Carter, I prefer to believe, or at least give the benefit of the doubt, To our friend and ally, the democratic nation of Israel, rather than a bunch of Iranian puppets, Islamo-fascist lunatics seeking martyrdom.

it's all in who you choose to believe.

Nice bit of hate propaganda butt ell that to the nearly 1000 dead women and children who died by the hands of that democratic friend of yours..

 

[Zzarchov]

Nice bit of hate propaganda butt ell that to the nearly 1000 dead women and children who died by the hands of that democratic friend of yours..

I hate to break it to you, but in a dense urban warzone, thats some pretty tight fire control from any nation.

And, if we go by the rules of war, civilian casualties from a warzone are the fault of the defender, if they are fighting from civilian areas.

Were people not railing because Israel kept POW's near tanks.

How can it be a crime for one side but not the other.

The ole double standard. Hamas could literally rape babies and Israel turn the other cheek and throw money in the air and they would still be the villains to the poor downtrodden Hamas.

 

[lone wolf]

Hey Colp ... why is everyone who doesn't think the same as you an idiot?

 

[Zzarchov]

Hey Colp ... why is everyone who doesn't think the same as you an idiot?

Same reason you can't admit your wrong when you prove it yourself.

Stubborn pride

 

[Praxius]

I am aware of the use of tunnels in warfare, most extensively by the Vietnamese in the 60's and 70's verses the USA, a system so extensive it was jokingly said you could enter in saigon and come out in Hanoi.........the difference is this tunnel was breaching the border.......

Not based on the given above information.... and if they were.... once again... where's the proof? Where are the photos or footage of these tunnels passing beyond the border?

I figured people these days would have learn some lessons over the last 8 years of just taking governments for their "word"

 

[Praxius]

I hate to break it to you, but in a dense urban warzone, thats some pretty tight fire control from any nation.

And, if we go by the rules of war, civilian casualties from a warzone are the fault of the defender, if they are fighting from civilian areas.

Oh so when the enemy directly targets the civilians you're supposed to protect, you should give them a wide amount of breathing room so they can continue to kill them?

Oh no.... Israel is innocent and have no responsibility for the people who died from their weapons, sure sure....

Were people not railing because Israel kept POW's near tanks.

How can it be a crime for one side but not the other.

One is protecting the people being attacked, the other is using the enemy's civilians as human shields.... bit of a difference.

The ole double standard. Hamas could literally rape babies and Israel turn the other cheek and throw money in the air and they would still be the villains to the poor downtrodden Hamas.

Nice straw.

 

[lone wolf]

Same reason you can't admit your wrong when you prove it yourself.

Stubborn pride

When it is proven, I'll graciously eat my own crow thank you very much, Troll