House Member
Posts: 2,445 
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 18th, 2008, 10:14 PM
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Quoting earth_as_one
All that verbage and after wasting my time reading it all, no reported casualties.
You have no idea.
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,489
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
July 18th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Quoting Just the Facts
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Might be easier to give 'em, hell if they had a town hall to catch the mail or to picket. If they're not recognized then they don't exist so it's like saying NO to phantoms....
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 12:56 AM
Still don't recognize injustice? How about now?
Quoting Just the Facts
You don't see the injustice of demolitioning people's homes? How about now?
All that verbage and after wasting my time reading it all, no reported casualties.
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Quote:
Does it matter how many stories exist like the above?
Home of Bedouin soldier killed in action slated for demolition
By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent
Driving along the road from Be'er Sheva to Arad, shortly before the turn toward Darijat, you can see the unrecognized Bedouin village that was home to Manhash al-Baniyat, the Israeli soldier who was killed Wednesday in a clash with Palestinian gunmen near the Gaza Strip border, across from Kibbutz Be'eri...
...Asked whether Manhash liked army service, his cousin Awada Smaana gave a sad smile, and said: "That's a tough question. It's a very big dilemma for us, whether or not to enlist. Sometimes you feel like belonging to the state, but sometimes you get fed up because you build a house and they come and destroy it." Smaana grappled with this dilemma himself when he enlisted, caught "between the need to belong and the fact that you feel like you don't belong. It's constant agonizing. I hope our situation will change, but so far it looks like it isn't changing."...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975682.html
By Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondent
Driving along the road from Be'er Sheva to Arad, shortly before the turn toward Darijat, you can see the unrecognized Bedouin village that was home to Manhash al-Baniyat, the Israeli soldier who was killed Wednesday in a clash with Palestinian gunmen near the Gaza Strip border, across from Kibbutz Be'eri...
...Asked whether Manhash liked army service, his cousin Awada Smaana gave a sad smile, and said: "That's a tough question. It's a very big dilemma for us, whether or not to enlist. Sometimes you feel like belonging to the state, but sometimes you get fed up because you build a house and they come and destroy it." Smaana grappled with this dilemma himself when he enlisted, caught "between the need to belong and the fact that you feel like you don't belong. It's constant agonizing. I hope our situation will change, but so far it looks like it isn't changing."...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975682.html
Quote:
Or does someone have to die before you are able to recognize injustice? Here's some verbage related to home demolition which ends in death.
* year - number of demolitions
* 1967 - 6,317
* 1968 - 140
* 1969 - 301
* 1970 - 191
* 1971 - 2,231
* 1972 - 35
* 1973 - 34
* 1974 - 61
* 1975 - 77
* 1976 - 24
* 1977 - 1
* 1978 - 2
* 1979 - 18
* 1980 - 30
* 1981 - 24
* 1982 - 35
* 1983 - 12
* 1984 - 2
* 1985 - 44
* 1986 - 49
* 1987 - 104
* 1988 - 587
* 1989 - 567
* 1990 - 306
* 1991 - 307
* 1992 - 193
* 1993 - 130
* 1994 - 153
* 1995 - 69
* 1996 - 168
* 1997 - 257
* 1998 - 180
* 1999 - 142
* (Intifada) - 4,747 (2,781 military, 1,966 administrative)
* 2005 - 290
* 2006 - 319
* TOTAL 18,147
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.as...=2&article=402
* 1967 - 6,317
* 1968 - 140
* 1969 - 301
* 1970 - 191
* 1971 - 2,231
* 1972 - 35
* 1973 - 34
* 1974 - 61
* 1975 - 77
* 1976 - 24
* 1977 - 1
* 1978 - 2
* 1979 - 18
* 1980 - 30
* 1981 - 24
* 1982 - 35
* 1983 - 12
* 1984 - 2
* 1985 - 44
* 1986 - 49
* 1987 - 104
* 1988 - 587
* 1989 - 567
* 1990 - 306
* 1991 - 307
* 1992 - 193
* 1993 - 130
* 1994 - 153
* 1995 - 69
* 1996 - 168
* 1997 - 257
* 1998 - 180
* 1999 - 142
* (Intifada) - 4,747 (2,781 military, 1,966 administrative)
* 2005 - 290
* 2006 - 319
* TOTAL 18,147
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.as...=2&article=402
Quote:
February 7 2003
Hi friends and family, and others,
I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago.
Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah: a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60% of whom are refugees - many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Today, as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "What's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously - occasionally shouting and also occasionally waving - many forced to be here, many just agressive - shooting into the houses as we wander away.
I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope you will start.
My love to everyone. My love to my mom. My love to smooch. My love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and Lincoln School. My love to Olympia.
>>>>
February 28 2003
Thanks, Mom, for your response to my email. It really helps me to get word from you, and from other people who care about me.
After I wrote to you I went incommunicado from the affinity group for about 10 hours which I spent with a family on the front line in Hi Salam - who fixed me dinner - and have cable TV. The two front rooms of their house are unusable because gunshots have been fired through the walls, so the whole family - three kids and two parents - sleep in the parent's bedroom. I sleep on the floor next to the youngest daughter, Iman, and we all shared blankets. I helped the son with his English homework a little, and we all watched Pet Semetery, which is a horrifying movie. I think they all thought it was pretty funny how much trouble I had watching it. Friday is the holiday, and when I woke up they were watching Gummy Bears dubbed into Arabic. So I ate breakfast with them and sat there for a while and just enjoyed being in this big puddle of blankets with this family watching what for me seemed like Saturday morning cartoons. Then I walked some way to B'razil, which is where Nidal and Mansur and Grandmother and Rafat and all the rest of the big family that has really wholeheartedly adopted me live. (The other day, by the way, Grandmother gave me a pantomimed lecture in Arabic that involved a lot of blowing and pointing to her black shawl. I got Nidal to tell her that my mother would appreciate knowing that someone here was giving me a lecture about smoking turning my lungs black.) I met their sister-in-law, who is visiting from Nusserat camp, and played with her small baby.
Nidal's English gets better every day. He's the one who calls me, "My sister". He started teaching Grandmother how to say, "Hello. How are you?" In English. You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers passing by, but all of these people are genuinely cheerful with each other, and with me. When I am with Palestinian friends I tend to be somewhat less horrified than when I am trying to act in a role of human rights observer, documenter, or direct-action resister. They are a good example of how to be in it for the long haul. I know that the situation gets to them - and may ultimately get them - on all kinds of levels, but I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity - laughter, generosity, family-time - against the incredible horror occurring in their lives and against the constant presence of death. I felt much better after this morning. I spent a lot of time writing about the disappointment of discovering, somewhat first-hand, the degree of evil of which we are still capable. I should at least mention that I am also discovering a degree of strength and of basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances - which I also haven't seen before. I think the word is dignity. I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/18/usa.israel
Hi friends and family, and others,
I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago.
Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah: a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60% of whom are refugees - many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Today, as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "What's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously - occasionally shouting and also occasionally waving - many forced to be here, many just agressive - shooting into the houses as we wander away.
I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope you will start.
My love to everyone. My love to my mom. My love to smooch. My love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and Lincoln School. My love to Olympia.
>>>>
February 28 2003
Thanks, Mom, for your response to my email. It really helps me to get word from you, and from other people who care about me.
After I wrote to you I went incommunicado from the affinity group for about 10 hours which I spent with a family on the front line in Hi Salam - who fixed me dinner - and have cable TV. The two front rooms of their house are unusable because gunshots have been fired through the walls, so the whole family - three kids and two parents - sleep in the parent's bedroom. I sleep on the floor next to the youngest daughter, Iman, and we all shared blankets. I helped the son with his English homework a little, and we all watched Pet Semetery, which is a horrifying movie. I think they all thought it was pretty funny how much trouble I had watching it. Friday is the holiday, and when I woke up they were watching Gummy Bears dubbed into Arabic. So I ate breakfast with them and sat there for a while and just enjoyed being in this big puddle of blankets with this family watching what for me seemed like Saturday morning cartoons. Then I walked some way to B'razil, which is where Nidal and Mansur and Grandmother and Rafat and all the rest of the big family that has really wholeheartedly adopted me live. (The other day, by the way, Grandmother gave me a pantomimed lecture in Arabic that involved a lot of blowing and pointing to her black shawl. I got Nidal to tell her that my mother would appreciate knowing that someone here was giving me a lecture about smoking turning my lungs black.) I met their sister-in-law, who is visiting from Nusserat camp, and played with her small baby.
Nidal's English gets better every day. He's the one who calls me, "My sister". He started teaching Grandmother how to say, "Hello. How are you?" In English. You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers passing by, but all of these people are genuinely cheerful with each other, and with me. When I am with Palestinian friends I tend to be somewhat less horrified than when I am trying to act in a role of human rights observer, documenter, or direct-action resister. They are a good example of how to be in it for the long haul. I know that the situation gets to them - and may ultimately get them - on all kinds of levels, but I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity - laughter, generosity, family-time - against the incredible horror occurring in their lives and against the constant presence of death. I felt much better after this morning. I spent a lot of time writing about the disappointment of discovering, somewhat first-hand, the degree of evil of which we are still capable. I should at least mention that I am also discovering a degree of strength and of basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances - which I also haven't seen before. I think the word is dignity. I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/18/usa.israel
Quote:
Crouching on the earth, almost like a supplicant in prayer, she placed her right foot behind her left and rested her right knee on the ground. Looking toward the bulletproof windows, she could probably see the silhouettes of two Israeli operators. The steel blade began pushing a huge pile of debris and sandy soil toward her, so close that the scent of the moist earth permeated her nostrils. The ground began to shift beneath her feet. Tom Dale was standing a few yards from Corrie as the bulldozer got close. "The bulldozer built up earth in front of it. Its blade was slightly dug into the earth," he told me. "She began to stand up. The earth was pushed over her feet. She tried to climb on top of the earth, to avoid being overwhelmed. She climbed to the point where her shoulders were above the top lip of the blade. She was standing on this pile of earth. As the bulldozer continued, she lost her footing, and she turned and fell down this pile of earth. Then it seemed like she got her foot caught under the blade. She was helpless, pushed prostrate, and looked absolutely panicked, with her arms out, and the earth was piling itself over her. The bulldozer continued so that the place where she fell down was directly beneath the cockpit. I think she would have been between the treads. The whole [incident] took place in about six or seven seconds."
http://bsd.motherjones.com/news/feat...ma_497_01.html
http://bsd.motherjones.com/news/feat...ma_497_01.html
Still don't recognize injustice? How about now?
House Member
Posts: 3,091
July 19th, 2008, 09:50 AM
Sorry EAO, you've just lost this.
You've gone from debating to points to making false claims and attributing them to people who disagree with you.
ITN had no comments about not seeing Injustice, in fact he said he did see injustice. And then commented about how no one sees injustice in rocket attacks on civilians.
You then tried to say he didn't see anything wrong in demolishing homes. At this point you aren't interested in debate you just want to preach and smear people who disagree.
Seriously, I would calm down and respond then.
Sorry EAO, you've just lost this.
You've gone from debating to points to making false claims and attributing them to people who disagree with you.
ITN had no comments about not seeing Injustice, in fact he said he did see injustice. And then commented about how no one sees injustice in rocket attacks on civilians.
You then tried to say he didn't see anything wrong in demolishing homes. At this point you aren't interested in debate you just want to preach and smear people who disagree.
Seriously, I would calm down and respond then.
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 10:07 AM
My last post in response this:
Which statement here identifies or acknowledges that demolishing people's homes is unjust. I interpreted his point to mean that demolition Palestinian homes is perfectly acceptable as long as no one is killed.
Perhaps I misinterpreted his meaning... Maybe JTF would like to clarify his meaning.
Do you believe demolishing thousands of Palestinian homes is just?
Quoting Zzarchov
Which ITN post do you reference? My last posts referenced Just the Facts. You'll have to be more specific.
Sorry EAO, you've just lost this.
You've gone from debating to points to making false claims and attributing them to people who disagree with you.
ITN had no comments about not seeing Injustice, in fact he said he did see injustice. And then commented about how no one sees injustice in rocket attacks on civilians.
You then tried to say he didn't see anything wrong in demolishing homes. At this point you aren't interested in debate you just want to preach and smear people who disagree.
Seriously, I would calm down and respond then.
You've gone from debating to points to making false claims and attributing them to people who disagree with you.
ITN had no comments about not seeing Injustice, in fact he said he did see injustice. And then commented about how no one sees injustice in rocket attacks on civilians.
You then tried to say he didn't see anything wrong in demolishing homes. At this point you aren't interested in debate you just want to preach and smear people who disagree.
Seriously, I would calm down and respond then.
My last post in response this:
Quote:
Quoting Just the Facts All that verbage and after wasting my time reading it all, no reported casualties.
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Yeah, Israel demolishes houses, that's not in dispute, you don't need to prove it. They've taken a lot of flack for it from the world community and have even agreed to stop doing it, although they don't seem to have followed through on that yet.
Still, how many Palestinians were killed in the demolition of a house?
Now if only the world community would give the Palestinians as much flack for firing rockets at children as the world community gives Israel for knocking down buildings, we might make some progress.
Which statement here identifies or acknowledges that demolishing people's homes is unjust. I interpreted his point to mean that demolition Palestinian homes is perfectly acceptable as long as no one is killed.
Perhaps I misinterpreted his meaning... Maybe JTF would like to clarify his meaning.
Do you believe demolishing thousands of Palestinian homes is just?
Quote:
Through No Fault of Their Own: Israel's Punitive House Demolitions in the al-Aqsa Intifada
Principle findings:
http://www.btselem.org/english/publi...emolitions.asp
Principle findings:
- The Since the beginning of the al-Aqsa intifada, the IDF has demolished 628 housing units, which were home to 3,983 persons.
- These homes were demolished because of the acts of 333 Palestinians. On average, 12 innocent people lost their home for every person suspected of participation in attacks against Israelis.
- Almost half of the homes demolished (295 - 47%) were never home to anyone suspected of involvement in attacks against Israelis. As a result of these demolitions, 1,286 persons lost their homes even though according to Israeli officials they should not have been punished.
- Contrary to its argument before the High Court of Justice that prior warning is given except in extraordinary cases, B'Tselem's figures indicate that in only 3% of the cases were occupants given prior notification of the IDF's intention to demolish their home.
- Extensive destruction of property in occupied territories, without military necessity, constitutes a war crime.
http://www.btselem.org/english/publi...emolitions.asp
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Someone has to die before you can tell me someone has died. My point was that Israeli's evacuate the houses they demolish. The response to that was:
I also assume by your posts that your answer is yes, you would prefer if Israel would stop demolishing vacant houses and fire crude rockets at the general population instread.
Quoting earth_as_one
Yeah I already acknowledged Rachel Corrie. I'll repeat, since you obviously don't put anywhere near the amount of effort into reading my posts and links as I do yours... she's not Palestinian, and was not in a house being demolished.
Or does someone have to die before you are able to recognize injustice? Here's some verbage related to home demolition which ends in death.
Someone has to die before you can tell me someone has died. My point was that Israeli's evacuate the houses they demolish. The response to that was:
Quoting darkbeaver
You've gone to great lengths to prove my suspicion that Israel does indeed evacuate the residents of homes before demolishing them. Thank you.
You begin with an unsupported statement that you invariably back up with standard industrial spin.
I also assume by your posts that your answer is yes, you would prefer if Israel would stop demolishing vacant houses and fire crude rockets at the general population instread.
Quote:
All those demolitions and not a single casualty. I hope the Palestinians fare better against crude rockets.
* TOTAL 18,147
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 10:18 AM
I've stated that Palestinian rockets attacks are war crimes, despite their limited effectiveness.
I still don't see any statement from you that its unjust to demolish people's homes.
Perhaps you can comment about the point that Palestinian house demolition combined with Jewish only settlement expansion makes this war about ethnic cleansing.
I've stated that Palestinian rockets attacks are war crimes, despite their limited effectiveness.
I still don't see any statement from you that its unjust to demolish people's homes.
Perhaps you can comment about the point that Palestinian house demolition combined with Jewish only settlement expansion makes this war about ethnic cleansing.
Quote:
Combined with indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilian with impunity: March 9, 2008 by Agence France Presse
Israel Okays Expansion of West Bank Settlement
JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has approved the construction of hundreds of new housing units at a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank, the housing ministry said on Sunday.
“After a series of consultations with the prime minister, Housing Minister Zeev Boim has approved the relaunching of construction in Givat Zeev,” the ministry said in a statement.The move was swiftly denounced as hampering efforts to advance faltering peace talks that Israelis and Palestinians revived to much fanfare under US stewardship in late November, but that have been stagnant since.
“We condemn in the harshest terms this decision,” senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat told AFP.
“We consider that with this decision, Israel wants to demolish the peace process and demolish the international efforts to advance the peace process,” he said.
“We ask the American administration to… pressure Israel to reverse this decision.”
The head of Israel’s main anti-settlement group Peace Now, Yariv Oppenheimer, echoed the sentiment.
“This is a scandalous decision that will affect the negotiations with the Palestinians,” he told AFP. “This government, which has pledged to dismantle settlements, has done nothing but reinforce them.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/09/7573/
Israel Okays Expansion of West Bank Settlement
JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has approved the construction of hundreds of new housing units at a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank, the housing ministry said on Sunday.
“After a series of consultations with the prime minister, Housing Minister Zeev Boim has approved the relaunching of construction in Givat Zeev,” the ministry said in a statement.The move was swiftly denounced as hampering efforts to advance faltering peace talks that Israelis and Palestinians revived to much fanfare under US stewardship in late November, but that have been stagnant since.
“We condemn in the harshest terms this decision,” senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat told AFP.
“We consider that with this decision, Israel wants to demolish the peace process and demolish the international efforts to advance the peace process,” he said.
“We ask the American administration to… pressure Israel to reverse this decision.”
The head of Israel’s main anti-settlement group Peace Now, Yariv Oppenheimer, echoed the sentiment.
“This is a scandalous decision that will affect the negotiations with the Palestinians,” he told AFP. “This government, which has pledged to dismantle settlements, has done nothing but reinforce them.”
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/09/7573/
Quote:
Does this sound just?
Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity
Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv The Guardian, Tuesday September 6, 2005 Article history
From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".
Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."
It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."
It was not the first time that Assaf had killed an innocent person in Gaza while following orders, but after his discharge he began to think about the things he did.
"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal."
Assaf is not alone. In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv The Guardian, Tuesday September 6, 2005 Article history
From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".
Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."
It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."
It was not the first time that Assaf had killed an innocent person in Gaza while following orders, but after his discharge he began to think about the things he did.
"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal."
Assaf is not alone. In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
Quote:
Israeli Officer:
I was Right to Shoot 13-Year-Old Child
Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
CHRIS McGREAL / The Guardian (UK) 24nov04
Jerusalem — An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old. The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Imam al-Hamas when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
Record of a shooting
Watchtower:
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room:
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower:
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl):
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood....
more here:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004...mas24nov04.htm
I was Right to Shoot 13-Year-Old Child
Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
CHRIS McGREAL / The Guardian (UK) 24nov04
[more below]
Jerusalem — An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old. The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Imam al-Hamas when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
Record of a shooting
Watchtower:
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room:
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower:
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl):
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood....
more here:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004...mas24nov04.htm
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,489
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
July 19th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Evacuate ... or knock it down because it's abandoned? Which do you want to stand behind? Does this mean there had better be someone sitting in Israeli cars at all times because if it's vacant it's up for grabs?
Evacuate ... or knock it down because it's abandoned? Which do you want to stand behind? Does this mean there had better be someone sitting in Israeli cars at all times because if it's vacant it's up for grabs?
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:29 AM
Quoting lone wolf
Oh yeah, you're the guy who walks away with Johnny-On-The-Spots.
Evacuate ... or knock it down because it's abandoned? Which do you want to stand behind? Does this mean there had better be someone sitting in Israeli cars at all times because if it's vacant it's up for grabs?
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,489
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
July 19th, 2008, 10:35 AM
J/K
Woof!
Quoting Just the Facts
I suppose I better give one back. Sounds like you may be in desperate need....
Oh yeah, you're the guy who walks away with Johnny-On-The-Spots.
J/K
Woof!
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 10:36 AM
Is the above just?
How about this, would you rather live as a nationless Muslim living in Israel and the occupied territories or an Iranian Jew?
Is the above just?
How about this, would you rather live as a nationless Muslim living in Israel and the occupied territories or an Iranian Jew?
Quote:
Sounds to me like they have more reasons to stay than to leave.
Iran's Jews reject cash offer to move to Israel· Expats offer families £30,000 to emigrate
· Our identity is not for sale, say community leaders
Robert Tait in Tehran guardian.co.uk, Thursday July 12, 2007
Article history
The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Saturday July 28 2007
In the article below we reported that last year President Ahmadinejad said (quoting the late Ayatollah Khomeini) that Israel should be "wiped off the map". A more literal translation of the statement he made in 2005, at The World without Zionism conference in Tehran, is "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iran's Jews have given the country a loyalty pledge in the face of cash offers aimed at encouraging them to move to Israel, the arch-enemy of its Islamic rulers.
The incentives — ranging from £5,000 a person to £30,000 for families — were offered from a special fund established by wealthy expatriate Jews in an effort to prompt a mass migration to Israel from among Iran's 25,000-strong Jewish community. The offers were made with Israel's official blessing and were additional to the usual state packages it provides to Jews emigrating from the diaspora.
However, the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale.
"The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradeable for any amount of money," the society said in a statement. "Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran's Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews."
The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv reported that the incentives had been doubled after earlier offers of £2,500 a head failed to attract any Iranian Jews to leave for Israel.
Iran's sole Jewish MP, Morris Motamed, said the offers were insulting and put the country's Jews under pressure to prove their loyalty.
"It suggests the Iranian Jew can be encouraged to emigrate by money," he said. "Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
Iran's Jewish population has dwindled from around 80,000 at the time of the 1979 Islamic revolution but remains the largest of any country in the Middle East apart from Israel. Jews have lived in Iran since at least 700BC.
Hostility between Iran's Islamic government and Israel means Iranian Jews are often subject to official mistrust and scrutiny. In 2000 10 Jews in the southern city of Shiraz were jailed for spying for Israel, which Iran refuses to recognise.
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Jews generally avoid political controversy, but Mr Motamed wrote a letter of protest to Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, last year after he called the Holocaust "a myth". Mr Ahmadinejad had earlier said that Israel should be "wiped off the map".
Jews are free to practise their religion and have their own schools, although they are forced to open on Saturdays, the Jewish sabbath.
Despite the absence of diplomatic ties with Israel, Iranian Jews frequently go there to visit relatives.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/12/israel.iran
· Our identity is not for sale, say community leaders
Robert Tait in Tehran guardian.co.uk, Thursday July 12, 2007
Article history
The following correction was printed in the Guardian's Corrections and clarifications column, Saturday July 28 2007
In the article below we reported that last year President Ahmadinejad said (quoting the late Ayatollah Khomeini) that Israel should be "wiped off the map". A more literal translation of the statement he made in 2005, at The World without Zionism conference in Tehran, is "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iran's Jews have given the country a loyalty pledge in the face of cash offers aimed at encouraging them to move to Israel, the arch-enemy of its Islamic rulers.
The incentives — ranging from £5,000 a person to £30,000 for families — were offered from a special fund established by wealthy expatriate Jews in an effort to prompt a mass migration to Israel from among Iran's 25,000-strong Jewish community. The offers were made with Israel's official blessing and were additional to the usual state packages it provides to Jews emigrating from the diaspora.
However, the Society of Iranian Jews dismissed them as "immature political enticements" and said their national identity was not for sale.
"The identity of Iranian Jews is not tradeable for any amount of money," the society said in a statement. "Iranian Jews are among the most ancient Iranians. Iran's Jews love their Iranian identity and their culture, so threats and this immature political enticement will not achieve their aim of wiping out the identity of Iranian Jews."
The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv reported that the incentives had been doubled after earlier offers of £2,500 a head failed to attract any Iranian Jews to leave for Israel.
Iran's sole Jewish MP, Morris Motamed, said the offers were insulting and put the country's Jews under pressure to prove their loyalty.
"It suggests the Iranian Jew can be encouraged to emigrate by money," he said. "Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
Iran's Jewish population has dwindled from around 80,000 at the time of the 1979 Islamic revolution but remains the largest of any country in the Middle East apart from Israel. Jews have lived in Iran since at least 700BC.
Hostility between Iran's Islamic government and Israel means Iranian Jews are often subject to official mistrust and scrutiny. In 2000 10 Jews in the southern city of Shiraz were jailed for spying for Israel, which Iran refuses to recognise.
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Jews generally avoid political controversy, but Mr Motamed wrote a letter of protest to Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, last year after he called the Holocaust "a myth". Mr Ahmadinejad had earlier said that Israel should be "wiped off the map".
Jews are free to practise their religion and have their own schools, although they are forced to open on Saturdays, the Jewish sabbath.
Despite the absence of diplomatic ties with Israel, Iranian Jews frequently go there to visit relatives.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/12/israel.iran
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:36 AM
Demolishing homes of suicide bombers may not be just, but is a reaction of desperation by a people who want to stop being killed.
Injustice does not come in a bottle. It floats around all over the place. You have to consider everything. You can't give lip service to the injustice against people being blown up by kassams, then shrug it off and pretend that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes just for sport.
Perhaps it would be just to fire crude rockets back at the Palestinians in response to Kassam attacks. It wouldn't be a big deal, due to their limited effectiveness, right? Think of all the homes that would be saved. What's a few dead and maimed to save hundreds of homes.
Quoting earth_as_one
Demolishing a person's home for no reason would be unjust, yes. Demolishing of homes that don't meet code or were built without permits happens even here in our fair land.
I've stated that Palestinian rockets attacks are war crimes, despite their limited effectiveness.
I still don't see any statement from you that its unjust to demolish people's homes.
I still don't see any statement from you that its unjust to demolish people's homes.
Demolishing homes of suicide bombers may not be just, but is a reaction of desperation by a people who want to stop being killed.
Injustice does not come in a bottle. It floats around all over the place. You have to consider everything. You can't give lip service to the injustice against people being blown up by kassams, then shrug it off and pretend that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes just for sport.
Perhaps it would be just to fire crude rockets back at the Palestinians in response to Kassam attacks. It wouldn't be a big deal, due to their limited effectiveness, right? Think of all the homes that would be saved. What's a few dead and maimed to save hundreds of homes.
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Quoting lone wolf
Unlike so many others who relieve themselves all over these forums!!
I suppose I better give one back. Sounds like you may be in desperate need....
J/K
Woof!
J/K
Woof!
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:47 AM
"Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Looks like their "reason to stay" is so their friends and family don't get hung.
No, I don't think Morris Motamed is playing the good Dhimmi with his comments. Not at all.
Quoting earth_as_one
Did you actually read the article?
Sounds to me like they have more reasons to stay than to leave.
"Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Looks like their "reason to stay" is so their friends and family don't get hung.
No, I don't think Morris Motamed is playing the good Dhimmi with his comments. Not at all.
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 10:50 AM
Sounds to me like you believe that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes in response to Palestinian rocket attacks. Israel has been demolishing Palestinian homes since its creation in 1948. The terrorists which later became the IDF started even earlier. When did Palestinians begin firing rockets at Israel?
Quoting Just the Facts
You believe that demolishing homes for no reason would be unjust. Doesn't sound like you believe that happens. Sounds to me like you believe Palestinian war crimes justify Israel's actions. Are Israel's actions war crimes?
Demolishing a person's home for no reason would be unjust, yes. Demolishing of homes that don't meet code or were built without permits happens even here in our fair land.
Demolishing homes of suicide bombers may not be just, but is a reaction of desperation by a people who want to stop being killed.
Injustice does not come in a bottle. It floats around all over the place. You have to consider everything. You can't give lip service to the injustice against people being blown up by kassams, then shrug it off and pretend that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes just for sport.
Perhaps it would be just to fire crude rockets back at the Palestinians in response to Kassam attacks. It wouldn't be a big deal, due to their limited effectiveness, right? Think of all the homes that would be saved. What's a few dead and maimed to save hundreds of homes.
Demolishing homes of suicide bombers may not be just, but is a reaction of desperation by a people who want to stop being killed.
Injustice does not come in a bottle. It floats around all over the place. You have to consider everything. You can't give lip service to the injustice against people being blown up by kassams, then shrug it off and pretend that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes just for sport.
Perhaps it would be just to fire crude rockets back at the Palestinians in response to Kassam attacks. It wouldn't be a big deal, due to their limited effectiveness, right? Think of all the homes that would be saved. What's a few dead and maimed to save hundreds of homes.
Sounds to me like you believe that Israel demolishes Palestinian homes in response to Palestinian rocket attacks. Israel has been demolishing Palestinian homes since its creation in 1948. The terrorists which later became the IDF started even earlier. When did Palestinians begin firing rockets at Israel?
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
July 19th, 2008, 10:51 AM
Quoting earth_as_one
Ummm....1948.
When did Palestinians begin firing rockets at Israel?
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 11:03 AM
But you never answered my hypothetical question. Would you rather be a nationless Palestinian living in Israel and the Occupied Territories or an Iranian Jew?
Quoting Just the Facts
We both agree that Iranian Jews do not have justice. The person you reference was apparently hanged without due process. Persian Jews face official and unofficial discrimination. Iran is a severe country. Belonging to any religious minority in Iran would be unpleasant.
Did you actually read the article?
"Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Looks like their "reason to stay" is so their friends and family don't get hung.
No, I don't think Morris Motamed is playing the good Dhimmi with his comments. Not at all.
"Iran's Jews have always been free to emigrate and three-quarters of them did so after the revolution but 70% of those went to America, not Israel."
A Jewish businessman, Ruhollah Kadkhodah-Zadeh, was hanged in 1998, apparently for allegedly helping Jews to emigrate.
Looks like their "reason to stay" is so their friends and family don't get hung.
No, I don't think Morris Motamed is playing the good Dhimmi with his comments. Not at all.
But you never answered my hypothetical question. Would you rather be a nationless Palestinian living in Israel and the Occupied Territories or an Iranian Jew?
Council Member
Posts: 1,527
July 19th, 2008, 11:06 AM
When did Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other Palestinian militant groups begin firing rockets at Israel?
Quoting Just the Facts
Link please! I'm talking about Palestinian militant groups, not foreign armies.
Ummm....1948.
When did Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the other Palestinian militant groups begin firing rockets at Israel?
