Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 7,904 
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
February 26th, 2008, 07:55 PM
'World would back Palestine independence'
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:01:32
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov
There is no doubt that if Palestine unilaterally declared independence many nations would recognize it, says Russia's Foreign Minister.
Sergei Lavrov said Monday that Kosovo's Western-backed declaration of independence from Serbia one week ago could spur Palestinians into following suit.
"At present there are already some Palestinian politicians who say it is futile to follow up negotiations with Israel and that these negotiations will not yield anything," Lavrov said on the Vesti 24 television channel.
"And voices are starting to be heard saying that after the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo we would proceed in the same way with a Palestinian state," he added.
Kosovo's Albanian-majority parliament unilaterally declared independence from Serbia on February 17.
The move was backed by the US and EU but was condemned by Russia.
MHE/RE
'World would back Palestine independence'
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:01:32
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei LavrovThere is no doubt that if Palestine unilaterally declared independence many nations would recognize it, says Russia's Foreign Minister.
Sergei Lavrov said Monday that Kosovo's Western-backed declaration of independence from Serbia one week ago could spur Palestinians into following suit.
"At present there are already some Palestinian politicians who say it is futile to follow up negotiations with Israel and that these negotiations will not yield anything," Lavrov said on the Vesti 24 television channel.
"And voices are starting to be heard saying that after the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo we would proceed in the same way with a Palestinian state," he added.
Kosovo's Albanian-majority parliament unilaterally declared independence from Serbia on February 17.
The move was backed by the US and EU but was condemned by Russia.
MHE/RE
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 26th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Palestinians don't want independance.
Gaza is for all intents and purposes independant, but they don't seem to want it.
Keep in mind, you can be independant and still under blockade (for doing things like declaring war on someone by shooting rockets on them).
Being independant would just cost it its remaining electricity Israel provides for free.
Palestinians don't want independance.
Gaza is for all intents and purposes independant, but they don't seem to want it.
Keep in mind, you can be independant and still under blockade (for doing things like declaring war on someone by shooting rockets on them).
Being independant would just cost it its remaining electricity Israel provides for free.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,088
February 27th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Gopher
Westerm nations aren't really enthusiastic when it comes to admiting their mistakes....
Twenty two years to admit that the Air India terrorist bombing was preventable for instance and then of course we have the toxification of enormous areas of the planet both during war through the use of chemical weapons and industrial imperialism.....
If only there were a few survivors from the Nazi holocaust prepared to undertake a similar blackmail campaign for the people of Palestine...then you might have a glimmer of a chance at reparations.....
Hypocrisy is the strong suit of western "democracies", from the treatment of the Chinese in Canada to its treatment of native North Americans....to land mines around the world to oppressive dictatorships established and maintained to feed the greed machine.
Gopher
Westerm nations aren't really enthusiastic when it comes to admiting their mistakes....
Twenty two years to admit that the Air India terrorist bombing was preventable for instance and then of course we have the toxification of enormous areas of the planet both during war through the use of chemical weapons and industrial imperialism.....
If only there were a few survivors from the Nazi holocaust prepared to undertake a similar blackmail campaign for the people of Palestine...then you might have a glimmer of a chance at reparations.....
Hypocrisy is the strong suit of western "democracies", from the treatment of the Chinese in Canada to its treatment of native North Americans....to land mines around the world to oppressive dictatorships established and maintained to feed the greed machine.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 27th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Don't forget, democracy isn't an issue since there are no democracies in the region other than Iraq (currently due to Bush) and Israel (which you deny is a real democracy).
Therefore just consider it a one state solution now. All middle eastern countries you decry Israel in comparison too are dictatorship in which a minority oppresses a majority with brutal repression.
Israel could actually become brutal, oppressive and evil and still be better because it would be a majority oppressing a minority.
As for Funding, nations can receive funding from whomever they want for whatever they want, that is the notion of sovereignty. If someone doesn't like it, feel free to try and sanction or boycott them.
If Palestine wants funding, it should make its own friends.
Quoting gopher
If it were a one state solution, then Israel can be considered that now. Although I have always favored a one state solution, Palestine's independence would be OK. All I say is, no one financial support for Israel and reparations from it to the Palestinians.
Don't forget, democracy isn't an issue since there are no democracies in the region other than Iraq (currently due to Bush) and Israel (which you deny is a real democracy).
Therefore just consider it a one state solution now. All middle eastern countries you decry Israel in comparison too are dictatorship in which a minority oppresses a majority with brutal repression.
Israel could actually become brutal, oppressive and evil and still be better because it would be a majority oppressing a minority.
As for Funding, nations can receive funding from whomever they want for whatever they want, that is the notion of sovereignty. If someone doesn't like it, feel free to try and sanction or boycott them.
If Palestine wants funding, it should make its own friends.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,827
Location: USA
Location: USA
February 27th, 2008, 03:41 PM
I suppose non-western nations are always upfront in admitting their mistakes. The West is sooooooooo bad.
Let Palestinians declare their independence in Gaza. They were smashing down walls to get to Egypt because they can't support themselves. Palestinians are treated like garbage by every middle eastern country. Egypt tried to stop them at first. So much for arab unity. Let's just see how many countries will empty their pockets for this problem child.
I suppose non-western nations are always upfront in admitting their mistakes. The West is sooooooooo bad.
Let Palestinians declare their independence in Gaza. They were smashing down walls to get to Egypt because they can't support themselves. Palestinians are treated like garbage by every middle eastern country. Egypt tried to stop them at first. So much for arab unity. Let's just see how many countries will empty their pockets for this problem child.
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,454
February 27th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Israel was given well over half of that area that was called Palestine. Israel started every war and gained ground with all of them. There must be a hundred and fifty UN resolutions calling for Israel to get out of Palestinian land......None acted apon. From David Ben Gurion forward, every Israeli prime minister has said they want all of Palestine. Well, now they have it all......Plus a bit of Syria, a bit of Jordan, a bit of Lebanon.... The Arabs who lived in what we called Palestine had farmed that ground for over twelve hundred years. Now they are all refugees. Sure, give them independence on a bit of sand in Gaza. Sure, that's fair.....Isn't it?
Israel was given well over half of that area that was called Palestine. Israel started every war and gained ground with all of them. There must be a hundred and fifty UN resolutions calling for Israel to get out of Palestinian land......None acted apon. From David Ben Gurion forward, every Israeli prime minister has said they want all of Palestine. Well, now they have it all......Plus a bit of Syria, a bit of Jordan, a bit of Lebanon.... The Arabs who lived in what we called Palestine had farmed that ground for over twelve hundred years. Now they are all refugees. Sure, give them independence on a bit of sand in Gaza. Sure, that's fair.....Isn't it?
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 27th, 2008, 04:59 PM
Israel started every war eh?
Like the one in 1948 where Arab Palestinians decided Jews could not have their own state?
In 1967 Israel may have fired first, but Egypt had previously announced and called for Arab unification in a war with Israel, that really was the start of the fight. Don't scream for a fight if you don't want one.
The Yom Kippur War was a suprise attack on Israel, mind telling me how they started that one?
Israel started every war eh?
Like the one in 1948 where Arab Palestinians decided Jews could not have their own state?
In 1967 Israel may have fired first, but Egypt had previously announced and called for Arab unification in a war with Israel, that really was the start of the fight. Don't scream for a fight if you don't want one.
The Yom Kippur War was a suprise attack on Israel, mind telling me how they started that one?
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,454
February 27th, 2008, 05:41 PM
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Was the 1967 war defenisve? - continued
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997
The history of Israeli expansionism
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Expansionism - continued
"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."
Expansionism - continued
In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
continued
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
The 1967 War and the
Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza
Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Was the 1967 war defenisve? - continued
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997
The history of Israeli expansionism
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Expansionism - continued
"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."
Expansionism - continued
In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
continued
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,187
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
February 27th, 2008, 11:19 PM
`` Israel can be considered that now.``
Perhaps in your imagination but not in anyone else's.
The Palestinian population in that area is at least 5 million and it would surpass that of the Israelis. Make it one country with a genuinely democratic government and the crisis there would end overnight. This is precisely what I have been calling for all along.
`` Israel can be considered that now.``
Perhaps in your imagination but not in anyone else's.
The Palestinian population in that area is at least 5 million and it would surpass that of the Israelis. Make it one country with a genuinely democratic government and the crisis there would end overnight. This is precisely what I have been calling for all along.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 28th, 2008, 06:49 AM
Lets look at some facts,
one, 5 million is not greater than the population of Israel.
two, Who said anything about democracy? If Democracy is your problem why are you attacking Israel instead of Syria which even you must admit is not only far less democratic than Israel, it also interferes in neighbouring states to stamp out democracy.
If Palestine became a democracy why on earth do you think other countries would let that stand? You think Syria wants a democracy on its doorstep?
You said sovereignty, that has nothing to do with Democracy nor will it ever in Palestine unless there are big changes in neighbouring countries.
Quoting gopher
Woaaah
`` Israel can be considered that now.``
Perhaps in your imagination but not in anyone else's.
The Palestinian population in that area is at least 5 million and it would surpass that of the Israelis. Make it one country with a genuinely democratic government and the crisis there would end overnight. This is precisely what I have been calling for all along.
Perhaps in your imagination but not in anyone else's.
The Palestinian population in that area is at least 5 million and it would surpass that of the Israelis. Make it one country with a genuinely democratic government and the crisis there would end overnight. This is precisely what I have been calling for all along.
Lets look at some facts,
one, 5 million is not greater than the population of Israel.
two, Who said anything about democracy? If Democracy is your problem why are you attacking Israel instead of Syria which even you must admit is not only far less democratic than Israel, it also interferes in neighbouring states to stamp out democracy.
If Palestine became a democracy why on earth do you think other countries would let that stand? You think Syria wants a democracy on its doorstep?
You said sovereignty, that has nothing to do with Democracy nor will it ever in Palestine unless there are big changes in neighbouring countries.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 28th, 2008, 08:21 AM
And again, what does democracy matter?
You are saying Israel is a horrible country and worse than its neighbours whom the Palestinian territorities were conquered from,
None of them are democracies. None of them would tolerate a democratic Palestine.
So why are you still talking about Democracy?
And again, what does democracy matter?
You are saying Israel is a horrible country and worse than its neighbours whom the Palestinian territorities were conquered from,
None of them are democracies. None of them would tolerate a democratic Palestine.
So why are you still talking about Democracy?
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,088
February 28th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I'd invite those feeling so supportive of the Israeli state to kindly move there and live there for the rest of their lives.
They could use your support and your voices of moderation would certainly help ameliorate the issues confronting Palestine and Israel.
You might want to divest yourselves of those unicorns prancing around in your pockets though....
You choose to blame anyone and everyone but Israel and the history of Israel and American collusion for the sixty years of turmoil.....
Never mind looking at why this sixty years of bliss came about....never mind examining the historical record with anything other than your prejudiced and blindered perceptions...
Apply simple reason and tell me why there'd be any problem in Palestine today if there weren't an Israeli state created in the middle of it....
If you can't......
I'd invite those feeling so supportive of the Israeli state to kindly move there and live there for the rest of their lives.
They could use your support and your voices of moderation would certainly help ameliorate the issues confronting Palestine and Israel.
You might want to divest yourselves of those unicorns prancing around in your pockets though....
You choose to blame anyone and everyone but Israel and the history of Israel and American collusion for the sixty years of turmoil.....
Never mind looking at why this sixty years of bliss came about....never mind examining the historical record with anything other than your prejudiced and blindered perceptions...
Apply simple reason and tell me why there'd be any problem in Palestine today if there weren't an Israeli state created in the middle of it....
If you can't......
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,730
Location: Winchester Virginia
Location: Winchester Virginia
February 28th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Hey MikeyDB, isn't it more fair to say that the continuation of the conflict hurts Palestine more than it hurts Israel ?
And if that is the case, why does much of the Palestinian leadership whip the frenzy of its younger generations towards a fruitless banging their head on the wall, literally ??
It is like me complaining that I'm right and I continue to kick this giant who returns the favor repeatedly driving me into the ground. Who's winning here ? Who is getting on with the business of life ? Shouldn't I consider another alternative for my own welfare ?
The Palestinians could have already logged at least 2 decades into a career or had jobs and families and children going to school by now ---jobs provided by the Jew, which ironically their richer Arab neighbors don't provide.
Is Israel wrong ?
Absolutely, and they're compounding it by that Wall stealing more land. Penny wise Pound foolish. The Wall certainly stopped the suicide bombings but they didn't have to nibble away more land.
Hey MikeyDB, isn't it more fair to say that the continuation of the conflict hurts Palestine more than it hurts Israel ?
And if that is the case, why does much of the Palestinian leadership whip the frenzy of its younger generations towards a fruitless banging their head on the wall, literally ??
It is like me complaining that I'm right and I continue to kick this giant who returns the favor repeatedly driving me into the ground. Who's winning here ? Who is getting on with the business of life ? Shouldn't I consider another alternative for my own welfare ?
The Palestinians could have already logged at least 2 decades into a career or had jobs and families and children going to school by now ---jobs provided by the Jew, which ironically their richer Arab neighbors don't provide.
Is Israel wrong ?
Absolutely, and they're compounding it by that Wall stealing more land. Penny wise Pound foolish. The Wall certainly stopped the suicide bombings but they didn't have to nibble away more land.
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,469
February 28th, 2008, 02:03 PM
2.)
Reasons for problems in the region other than an Israeli state:
The existence of a Democratic state (assuming Palestine became one)
The existence of valuable territory bordering hostile expansionist dictatorships
The influence of super powers picking rival nations during the cold wars
Limited resources and lots of people.
The holy land and the fight to control it and expel the "unfaithful" (a recurring theme Pre-Israel)
Quoting MikeyDB
1.) I fixed your post.
I'd invite those feeling so supportive of the Palestinian state to kindly move there and live there for the rest of their lives.
They could use your support and your voices of moderation would certainly help ameliorate the issues confronting Palestine and Israel.
You might want to divest yourselves of those unicorns prancing around in your pockets though....
You choose to blame anyone and everyone but Palestine and the history of Palestinian and Arab League collusion for the sixty years of turmoil..... (Technically its more than 60 years)
Never mind looking at why this sixty years of bliss came about....never mind examining the historical record with anything other than your prejudiced and blindered perceptions...
Apply simple reason and tell me why there'd be any problem in Egypt, Syria and Jordan today if there weren't any state created in the middle of it....
If you can't......
They could use your support and your voices of moderation would certainly help ameliorate the issues confronting Palestine and Israel.
You might want to divest yourselves of those unicorns prancing around in your pockets though....
You choose to blame anyone and everyone but Palestine and the history of Palestinian and Arab League collusion for the sixty years of turmoil..... (Technically its more than 60 years)
Never mind looking at why this sixty years of bliss came about....never mind examining the historical record with anything other than your prejudiced and blindered perceptions...
Apply simple reason and tell me why there'd be any problem in Egypt, Syria and Jordan today if there weren't any state created in the middle of it....
If you can't......
2.)
Reasons for problems in the region other than an Israeli state:
The existence of a Democratic state (assuming Palestine became one)
The existence of valuable territory bordering hostile expansionist dictatorships
The influence of super powers picking rival nations during the cold wars
Limited resources and lots of people.
The holy land and the fight to control it and expel the "unfaithful" (a recurring theme Pre-Israel)
