Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,693 
May 9th, 2008, 02:42 PM
No, in 1948 the Jewish forces in Pre-Israel were woefully outgunned.
Israel still maintains reserves of lower tech weapons, each Israeli adult is still fully trained as a soldier, with enough fire arms to go around.
Add to that again, Israel is a weapons producer. It made its own nuclear arsenal (allegedly), and has its own high tech weapons (and low tech, the Uzi is still one of the worlds best SMG's)
As much as its some fantasy of retribution against Israel, it really is more than capable of going solo.
No, in 1948 the Jewish forces in Pre-Israel were woefully outgunned.
Israel still maintains reserves of lower tech weapons, each Israeli adult is still fully trained as a soldier, with enough fire arms to go around.
Add to that again, Israel is a weapons producer. It made its own nuclear arsenal (allegedly), and has its own high tech weapons (and low tech, the Uzi is still one of the worlds best SMG's)
As much as its some fantasy of retribution against Israel, it really is more than capable of going solo.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 9th, 2008, 03:43 PM
Perhaps if Israel didn't build a culture on living a grudge?
Quoting Zzarchov
In 1948, Israel faced an unco-ordinated army of 10000 Egyptians, 5000 Iraquis, 2500 Syrians, 6000 Transjordanians, 1000 Lebanese, 800 Saudi Arabians, 3500 from the Arab Liberation Arms and an unknown number of Yemeni. (source - Wiki) Do you really think 30000 is the best they could do? The Arabs just gave them a Persian welcome. These people have known many centuries of desert warfare. If they'd really wanted to crush them, they would have.
No, in 1948 the Jewish forces in Pre-Israel were woefully outgunned.
Israel still maintains reserves of lower tech weapons, each Israeli adult is still fully trained as a soldier, with enough fire arms to go around.
Add to that again, Israel is a weapons producer. It made its own nuclear arsenal (allegedly), and has its own high tech weapons (and low tech, the Uzi is still one of the worlds best SMG's)
As much as its some fantasy of retribution against Israel, it really is more than capable of going solo.
Israel still maintains reserves of lower tech weapons, each Israeli adult is still fully trained as a soldier, with enough fire arms to go around.
Add to that again, Israel is a weapons producer. It made its own nuclear arsenal (allegedly), and has its own high tech weapons (and low tech, the Uzi is still one of the worlds best SMG's)
As much as its some fantasy of retribution against Israel, it really is more than capable of going solo.
Perhaps if Israel didn't build a culture on living a grudge?
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,693
May 9th, 2008, 05:39 PM
Uh huh, "If they wanted to crush them they would have"
Well, if they didn't want to crush them, why fight in the first place.
They lost, plain and simple. All this talk of "many centuries of desert warfare" is romantisized crap, they knew many centuries of getting their behind handed to them every generation or so (when they got uppity) by the Ottomans, until some Brits helped them out in WWI.
Uh huh, "If they wanted to crush them they would have"
Well, if they didn't want to crush them, why fight in the first place.
They lost, plain and simple. All this talk of "many centuries of desert warfare" is romantisized crap, they knew many centuries of getting their behind handed to them every generation or so (when they got uppity) by the Ottomans, until some Brits helped them out in WWI.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 9th, 2008, 05:42 PM
Quoting Zzarchov
How sharp does the point have to be to get through to you, Zorch? They pulled the punch. It was a bluff - a warning. If you think among the Arab nations all they could pull together was a force of thirty thousand, you better study reality a little better.
Uh huh, "If they wanted to crush them they would have"
Well, if they didn't want to crush them, why fight in the first place.
They lost, plain and simple. All this talk of "many centuries of desert warfare" is romantisized crap, they knew many centuries of getting their behind handed to them every generation or so (when they got uppity) by the Ottomans, until some Brits helped them out in WWI.
Well, if they didn't want to crush them, why fight in the first place.
They lost, plain and simple. All this talk of "many centuries of desert warfare" is romantisized crap, they knew many centuries of getting their behind handed to them every generation or so (when they got uppity) by the Ottomans, until some Brits helped them out in WWI.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,900
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 9th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Almost as stupid as the Arabs who, yes, believed they would sweep the Israelis into the sea in 1948.
I suppose 1967 was another "warning".....HA!
How about 1973, when Israel knew she was to be attacked, but because of the international backlash over the '67 pre-emptive strike, she stayed her hand......and almost met disaster.....but turned it around and trapped a huge Egyptian Army on the west side of the Suez.....
I guess those Israelis can't take a joke, eh?
Quoting lone wolf
That is about as silly a post as I have ever seen!
How sharp does the point have to be to get through to you, Zorch? They pulled the punch. It was a bluff - a warning. If you think among the Arab nations all they could pull together was a force of thirty thousand, you better study reality a little better.
Almost as stupid as the Arabs who, yes, believed they would sweep the Israelis into the sea in 1948.
I suppose 1967 was another "warning".....HA!
How about 1973, when Israel knew she was to be attacked, but because of the international backlash over the '67 pre-emptive strike, she stayed her hand......and almost met disaster.....but turned it around and trapped a huge Egyptian Army on the west side of the Suez.....
I guess those Israelis can't take a joke, eh?
Newbie
Posts: 17
May 9th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Are they ready for Statehood, do they have the infrastructure and if given more aid, would they use it wisely - or use it to bomb the ell out of Israel?
Not saying they shouldn't have it, they should, but not until they recognize the right of Israel to exist and quit threatening to exterminate Israel.
Are they ready for Statehood, do they have the infrastructure and if given more aid, would they use it wisely - or use it to bomb the ell out of Israel?
Not saying they shouldn't have it, they should, but not until they recognize the right of Israel to exist and quit threatening to exterminate Israel.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 9th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Quoting Colpy
I wouldn't expect anything other than Isreal good world bad to mean anything to you Mister Education. Study the culture for your knowledge is terribly one-sided.
That is about as silly a post as I have ever seen!
Almost as stupid as the Arabs who, yes, believed they would sweep the Israelis into the sea in 1948.
I suppose 1967 was another "warning".....HA!
How about 1973, when Israel knew she was to be attacked, but because of the international backlash over the '67 pre-emptive strike, she stayed her hand......and almost met disaster.....but turned it around and trapped a huge Egyptian Army on the west side of the Suez.....
I guess those Israelis can't take a joke, eh?
Almost as stupid as the Arabs who, yes, believed they would sweep the Israelis into the sea in 1948.
I suppose 1967 was another "warning".....HA!
How about 1973, when Israel knew she was to be attacked, but because of the international backlash over the '67 pre-emptive strike, she stayed her hand......and almost met disaster.....but turned it around and trapped a huge Egyptian Army on the west side of the Suez.....
I guess those Israelis can't take a joke, eh?
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,693
May 9th, 2008, 06:51 PM
I think you should study the culture, 30,000 was about as strong as the region at the time could muster, it was mostly empty and full of its own internal strife that tied up vast amounts of manpower.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
I think you should study the culture, 30,000 was about as strong as the region at the time could muster, it was mostly empty and full of its own internal strife that tied up vast amounts of manpower.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 9th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Quoting Zzarchov
Ohh ... I'm quite familiar with history ... and reality. Perhaps if you and Colpy opened your narrow minds and shut your garage door mouths you wouldn't appear as JDL parrots. Entertain a thought beyond your own. It won't tip your silly a$$es over.
I think you should study the culture, 30,000 was about as strong as the region at the time could muster, it was mostly empty and full of its own internal strife that tied up vast amounts of manpower.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,900
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 9th, 2008, 08:18 PM
They are the only Arabs in the IDF.
Ain't that weird.
But true.
As well, some Arab units did quite well against Israeli forces............including some Syrian units in the Golan Heights during the '73 war, and Jordanian units in Jerusalem in the '67 war.
It is just that most other Arab units fought so poorly that the Israelis could concentrate their forces after kicking the crap out of large Arab armies......all the IDF had to do in the Heights was hold on by their fingernails until increased strength could be brought to bear........in Jerusalem in '67 the Jordanians were outnumbered from the get-go......but they fought well.
Lone Wolf seems to believe every single stereotype applied to Jews by the Nazis.....they are evil, grasping shysters and back-stabbers that are physically and mentally inferior: incapable of fighting like real men................I find that a little disturbing.
The Israelis always seem to fight well........
BTW, LW, don't bother insulting my knowledge of history or current events....I'll take a rolled-up newspaper to you every time.
Quoting Zzarchov
Actually, the effective and respected Arab desert warriors still do exist.....they are the Bedouin......many live inside Israel, and they fight for Israel.
I think you should study the culture, 30,000 was about as strong as the region at the time could muster, it was mostly empty and full of its own internal strife that tied up vast amounts of manpower.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
This is similar to China in the 30's, it COULD have amassed a huge army and driven out the Japanese (especially with the German aid it was getting) but infighting, corruption, mismanagement and poor logistics meant the Japanese would often outnumber them in the field (in terms of effective fighting strength)
You need to brush up on history, real history, not romantisized notions of desert warriors that hadn't existed in a thousand years, generations of Ottoman rule had seen to that.
They are the only Arabs in the IDF.Ain't that weird.
But true.
As well, some Arab units did quite well against Israeli forces............including some Syrian units in the Golan Heights during the '73 war, and Jordanian units in Jerusalem in the '67 war.
It is just that most other Arab units fought so poorly that the Israelis could concentrate their forces after kicking the crap out of large Arab armies......all the IDF had to do in the Heights was hold on by their fingernails until increased strength could be brought to bear........in Jerusalem in '67 the Jordanians were outnumbered from the get-go......but they fought well.
Lone Wolf seems to believe every single stereotype applied to Jews by the Nazis.....they are evil, grasping shysters and back-stabbers that are physically and mentally inferior: incapable of fighting like real men................I find that a little disturbing.
The Israelis always seem to fight well........
BTW, LW, don't bother insulting my knowledge of history or current events....I'll take a rolled-up newspaper to you every time.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,556
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 9th, 2008, 08:32 PM
In no place did I claim to believe Nazi stereotypes. I have questioned how wrong they are when Isreal consistently proves those facts - even to a "what about me" ambassador. Typical of the arrogant that you'll attempt to know what I think and interpret statements out of context to be your truths. Why else is there no room for other thoughts than your own?
One question: How DID you ever get through university? My guess is Mummy and Daddy's money was wasted in that venture. I wonder what other bigotry your little mind thrives upon. Rolled-up newspaper? Problems with the potty training?
Quoting Colpy
Lone Wolf seems to believe every single stereotype applied to Jews by the Nazis.....they are evil, grasping shysters and back-stabbers that are physically and mentally inferior: incapable of fighting like real men................I find that a little disturbing.
The Israelis always seem to fight well........
BTW, LW, don't bother insulting my knowledge of history or current events....I'll take a rolled-up newspaper to you every time.
Colpy, don't quit your day job. Lord knows the world needs know-it-all rent-a-cops. Lone Wolf seems to believe every single stereotype applied to Jews by the Nazis.....they are evil, grasping shysters and back-stabbers that are physically and mentally inferior: incapable of fighting like real men................I find that a little disturbing.
The Israelis always seem to fight well........
BTW, LW, don't bother insulting my knowledge of history or current events....I'll take a rolled-up newspaper to you every time.
In no place did I claim to believe Nazi stereotypes. I have questioned how wrong they are when Isreal consistently proves those facts - even to a "what about me" ambassador. Typical of the arrogant that you'll attempt to know what I think and interpret statements out of context to be your truths. Why else is there no room for other thoughts than your own?
One question: How DID you ever get through university? My guess is Mummy and Daddy's money was wasted in that venture. I wonder what other bigotry your little mind thrives upon. Rolled-up newspaper? Problems with the potty training?
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,900
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 9th, 2008, 08:54 PM
Lucky me.
Unfortunate you.
BTW, I went to university when I was in my 30s. Mommy and Daddy didn't have anything to do with it.
BAD DOG!
Quoting lone wolf
I don't have a day job anymore.....so now I'm just a know-it-all.
Colpy, don't quit your day job. Lord knows the world needs know-it-all rent-a-cops.
In no place did I claim to believe Nazi stereotypes. I have questioned how wrong they are when Isreal consistently proves those facts - even to a "what about me" ambassador. Typical of the arrogant that you'll attempt to know what I think and interpret statements out of context to be your truths. Why else is there no room for other thoughts than your own?
One question: How DID you ever get through university? My guess is Mummy and Daddy's money was wasted in that venture. I wonder what other bigotry your little mind thrives upon. Rolled-up newspaper? Problems with the potty training?
In no place did I claim to believe Nazi stereotypes. I have questioned how wrong they are when Isreal consistently proves those facts - even to a "what about me" ambassador. Typical of the arrogant that you'll attempt to know what I think and interpret statements out of context to be your truths. Why else is there no room for other thoughts than your own?
One question: How DID you ever get through university? My guess is Mummy and Daddy's money was wasted in that venture. I wonder what other bigotry your little mind thrives upon. Rolled-up newspaper? Problems with the potty training?
Lucky me.
Unfortunate you.
BTW, I went to university when I was in my 30s. Mommy and Daddy didn't have anything to do with it.
BAD DOG!
Super Genius
Posts: 1,416
May 9th, 2008, 09:28 PM
At the time, most of Palestine's Arab neighbours were either colonies or recently liberated. They were poor, confused, disorganized and unstable. That's not the story today. Inevitably they will turn their attention increasingly toward Israel and Palestine. Israel will stand as long as the US remains strong. But no empire lasts forever....
Regarding the Bedouins...:
Bedouins are Israeli citizens and they can serve in the Israeli military (and have done so for 60 years!) But they suffer discrimination:
Human Rights Watch
Quoting lone wolf
From my research, I found that the Zionist forces outnumbered their combined adversaries about 2:1. Zionists were better trained, organized, led and armed. By every measure they were superior and as a result won the war. Later contemporary mythology propagated by the media portrayed Israel's independance or hostile conquest of Palestine as a Zionist David defeating the Arab Goliath.
How sharp does the point have to be to get through to you, Zorch? They pulled the punch. It was a bluff - a warning. If you think among the Arab nations all they could pull together was a force of thirty thousand, you better study reality a little better.
At the time, most of Palestine's Arab neighbours were either colonies or recently liberated. They were poor, confused, disorganized and unstable. That's not the story today. Inevitably they will turn their attention increasingly toward Israel and Palestine. Israel will stand as long as the US remains strong. But no empire lasts forever....
Regarding the Bedouins...:
Bedouins are Israeli citizens and they can serve in the Israeli military (and have done so for 60 years!) But they suffer discrimination:
Human Rights Watch
Quote:
Also several pages back, I posted a list of Israeli and Palestinian children killed as a result of this conflict. One of the Israeli children killed during this conflict was a Bedouin killed by an Israeli Defence Force sniper. Oops?
Israel: End Systematic Bias Against Bedouin
Stop Demolishing Homes, Remedy Discriminatory Land Allocation
(Jerusalem, March 31, 200
– Israel should declare an immediate moratorium on demolitions of Bedouin homes and create an independent commission to investigate pervasive land and housing discrimination against its Bedouin citizens in the Negev, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today.
The 130-page report, “Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages,” documents how discriminatory Israeli laws and practices force tens of thousands of Bedouin in the south of Israel to live in “unrecognized” shanty towns where they are under constant threat of seeing their homes demolished and their communities torn apart.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008...srlpa18387.htm
Stop Demolishing Homes, Remedy Discriminatory Land Allocation
(Jerusalem, March 31, 200
– Israel should declare an immediate moratorium on demolitions of Bedouin homes and create an independent commission to investigate pervasive land and housing discrimination against its Bedouin citizens in the Negev, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. The 130-page report, “Off the Map: Land and Housing Rights Violations in Israel’s Unrecognized Bedouin Villages,” documents how discriminatory Israeli laws and practices force tens of thousands of Bedouin in the south of Israel to live in “unrecognized” shanty towns where they are under constant threat of seeing their homes demolished and their communities torn apart.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008...srlpa18387.htm
Member
Posts: 181
May 12th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Yes Zzarkof we know. You and yours are the only reliable source. Colpy feels the same way. Note how Colpy continues to explain to us simple creatures how intelligent and educated he is. His intelligent comments that we are all to heed include>>That is about as silly a post as I have ever seen! And we all fall down in awe.
Considering there are 6 or so that post here, a great deal of research has gone into many posts. Admmittedly some posts are straight out of proaganda pamphlets. 330,000,000 million people and 6 post here. Hmmm---
Yes Zzarkof we know. You and yours are the only reliable source. Colpy feels the same way. Note how Colpy continues to explain to us simple creatures how intelligent and educated he is. His intelligent comments that we are all to heed include>>That is about as silly a post as I have ever seen! And we all fall down in awe.
Considering there are 6 or so that post here, a great deal of research has gone into many posts. Admmittedly some posts are straight out of proaganda pamphlets. 330,000,000 million people and 6 post here. Hmmm---
Member
Posts: 181
May 17th, 2008, 11:55 AM
I have running shoes Colpy. A head covering for you would have been good for the winter and even now so you won't fry. You need to read and think about your posts, Colpy.
Israel 1948
The truth is that Israel, even before its official creation, has constituted the most militarised community in the region. It has never been less than armed to the teeth.
According to Hitham Al-Kilani in a study published in the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat, marking the 50 years that have passed since the 1948 war: "The American Intelligence Agency, in a report dated 27 July 1948, estimated the figures of the forces engaged in combat inside Palestine as follows -- 27,000 Arabs (with the ability to draw upon another 19,800 stationed near), while the Jewish forces engaged in combat were estimated at 97,800."
In another study, however, also published in Al-Hayat, Prof Walid Khalidi estimates the number of Arab troops during the first stage of the war (15 May-11 June) as 18,000 maximum. Add to this the fact that Jewish forces were well-equipped and trained and under united leadership, while the Arab forces were ill-equipped, ill-trained and without any convincing leadership, and the David and Goliath version of the conflict, that gained such hegemony, is revealed for what it is, nothing but a myth. Indeed, at no point throughout the entire war did Israeli combat forces outnumber their Arab counterparts by less than two to one. Neither should we forget that before the Arab armies entered Palestine on 15 May the Jewish forces had already taken over not only many Arab villages in the area allotted to the Arab state in the UN partition plan, but also a number of major towns, including Tibireus, Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Safed. In the process they expelled more than 400,000 Palestinians.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/381_myth.htm
I have running shoes Colpy. A head covering for you would have been good for the winter and even now so you won't fry. You need to read and think about your posts, Colpy.
Israel 1948
The truth is that Israel, even before its official creation, has constituted the most militarised community in the region. It has never been less than armed to the teeth.
According to Hitham Al-Kilani in a study published in the London-based Arabic daily Al-Hayat, marking the 50 years that have passed since the 1948 war: "The American Intelligence Agency, in a report dated 27 July 1948, estimated the figures of the forces engaged in combat inside Palestine as follows -- 27,000 Arabs (with the ability to draw upon another 19,800 stationed near), while the Jewish forces engaged in combat were estimated at 97,800."
In another study, however, also published in Al-Hayat, Prof Walid Khalidi estimates the number of Arab troops during the first stage of the war (15 May-11 June) as 18,000 maximum. Add to this the fact that Jewish forces were well-equipped and trained and under united leadership, while the Arab forces were ill-equipped, ill-trained and without any convincing leadership, and the David and Goliath version of the conflict, that gained such hegemony, is revealed for what it is, nothing but a myth. Indeed, at no point throughout the entire war did Israeli combat forces outnumber their Arab counterparts by less than two to one. Neither should we forget that before the Arab armies entered Palestine on 15 May the Jewish forces had already taken over not only many Arab villages in the area allotted to the Arab state in the UN partition plan, but also a number of major towns, including Tibireus, Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Safed. In the process they expelled more than 400,000 Palestinians.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/381_myth.htm
Chief Mogrifier
Posts: 8,810
May 17th, 2008, 01:19 PM
Palestine Independance? Where is Palestine? There used to be a place called Palestine but that is now Israel. Fifty or sixty years ago the Jews were given the larger half of Palestine and since that time the Jews have acquired not only the rest of Palestine, but part of Syria, part of Lebanon, part of Jordan, and part of Egypt. What waterless, sand covered, $hithole do we now want to give the Palestinians their independance in? Not to worry. It's not going to happen.
Palestine Independance? Where is Palestine? There used to be a place called Palestine but that is now Israel. Fifty or sixty years ago the Jews were given the larger half of Palestine and since that time the Jews have acquired not only the rest of Palestine, but part of Syria, part of Lebanon, part of Jordan, and part of Egypt. What waterless, sand covered, $hithole do we now want to give the Palestinians their independance in? Not to worry. It's not going to happen.
