Senate Member
Posts: 5,230 
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 6th, 2008, 10:29 AM
Quoting einmensch
As I said before: the ONLY people that put forth the "four million dead at Aushwitz" figure were the propagandists of the communist bloc states......that is why the figure was instantly revised when the Bloc collapsed in 1989.....no serious historian from the west ever accepted that figure, therefore it was NEVER included in the 6 million Jews that western historians say died.
I do have a question . Since the clasim was 6 million and the in 1989 the deaths at Auschwits were reduced from million to 1.5 million, I'm wondering how come the number is still 6 million rather than 6-2.5 =3.5 million. You have a rational?
House Member
Posts: 3,093
May 6th, 2008, 02:29 PM
Quoting lone wolf
Then does that mean you are sending Israeli propaganda in that link?
Here.... Without even looking hard:
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_40343.html
One of these times you're going to choke on your Israeli propaganda. It takes two to tango and USJW loves to dance....
Woof!
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_40343.html
One of these times you're going to choke on your Israeli propaganda. It takes two to tango and USJW loves to dance....
Woof!
Quote:
Youth centres have been looted, damaged and occupied by militants and two thirds of all Palestinian families now fall below the poverty line
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
May 6th, 2008, 02:47 PM
http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html
Again, opportunity for change being negated by checkpoints? I don't think so.
Thousands of Palestinian children kicked off the new school year on Saturday in the Gaza Strip, but their counterparts in the West Bank got an extra day of vacation thanks to a teacher's strike.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...-to-School.php
Someone with the right idea, and his school gets threatened and torched:
For many Palestinians, Israelis are the enemy, and vice-versa, but here we work hard against this kind of stereotyping.
Founded as a kindergarten in 1984, the institution places peace and democracy at the heart of its syllabus and extra-curricula activities, promoting non-violence and dialogue as means for conflict resolution.
Some Palestinians, however, opposed the concept violently. Hussein Issa was a target of attack, his car was set on fire and the family home was firebombed.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/05/4345/
Palestinians need to support visionaries like Hussein Issa, not threaten them, if they truly wish to have hope for an end to the violence.
Quoting lone wolf
Still breathing easy, no danger of choking here, your article actually supports my point as much as, if not more than, refutes it. In fact, if you prove me wrong, I'll just change my mind. I've said many times, I have no vested interest in Israel, I just calls em as I sees em. So my health is in no jeapardy on this issue....I will not need to redefine myself.
Here.... Without even looking hard:
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_40343.html
One of these times you're going to choke on your Israeli propaganda. It takes two to tango and USJW loves to dance....
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/media_40343.html
One of these times you're going to choke on your Israeli propaganda. It takes two to tango and USJW loves to dance....
Quote:
Definite opportunity for change from within there.
But since the recent clashes between Hamas and Fatah last month, the conditions they face and the standards that they would normally expect are nothing short of unbearable.
Youth centres have been looted, damaged and occupied by militants
Youth centres have been looted, damaged and occupied by militants
Quote:
It should be stressed that supplying water and gathering information for terrorists in active combat zones, puts these children in life-threatening situations and has led to the deaths of many children. Note that the term resistance is used by the PA leadership and media to refer to all terrorists, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others.
In June, in Gaza, 22 children were killed in intra Palestinian and Israeli military operations thats nearly one child per day and these children witnessed scenes of violence, division and chaos in their community over the past months.
http://www.pmw.org.il/schoolbooks.html
Again, opportunity for change being negated by checkpoints? I don't think so.
Quote:
And yet, a teachers strike? What's the point in teachers striking if no one can get to school anyway? Hmmm.:
The movement restrictions imposed by the system of closure and by the barrier, mean that children cant go to school, teachers cant go to school.
Thousands of Palestinian children kicked off the new school year on Saturday in the Gaza Strip, but their counterparts in the West Bank got an extra day of vacation thanks to a teacher's strike.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...-to-School.php
Quote:
Have they considered NOT shooting at the convoys bringing supplies in? May not be a panacea, but I bet it would help.
the continuing violence continues to isolate an already shattered economy and makes it very, very difficult for us to get in supplies, technical assistance and support to the children who need it most.
Someone with the right idea, and his school gets threatened and torched:
For many Palestinians, Israelis are the enemy, and vice-versa, but here we work hard against this kind of stereotyping.
Founded as a kindergarten in 1984, the institution places peace and democracy at the heart of its syllabus and extra-curricula activities, promoting non-violence and dialogue as means for conflict resolution.
Some Palestinians, however, opposed the concept violently. Hussein Issa was a target of attack, his car was set on fire and the family home was firebombed.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/05/4345/
Palestinians need to support visionaries like Hussein Issa, not threaten them, if they truly wish to have hope for an end to the violence.
Senate Member
Posts: 5,230
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 6th, 2008, 02:55 PM
First of all, I hardly think the Israelis' main purpose in setting up road blocks is to prevent palestinian children from getting to school.....
secondly, if it was, how could you blame them? Posters of "Martyrs" on the wall. Martyrs, that is, that were niave enough to seek virgins by strapping on explosive belts and blowing themselves up with Israeli grandmothers and babies (is "martyr" synonymous with "idiot" in Arabic?) ........as well as textbooks that don't show Israel on their maps........
Give it a break!
First of all, I hardly think the Israelis' main purpose in setting up road blocks is to prevent palestinian children from getting to school.....
secondly, if it was, how could you blame them? Posters of "Martyrs" on the wall. Martyrs, that is, that were niave enough to seek virgins by strapping on explosive belts and blowing themselves up with Israeli grandmothers and babies (is "martyr" synonymous with "idiot" in Arabic?) ........as well as textbooks that don't show Israel on their maps........
Give it a break!
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 6th, 2008, 06:47 PM
It's so good to see all of you in one thread. Now all we have to haggle is which is see no, which is hear no and which is speak no evil?. JTF, the link speaks of Palestinian kids not being able to get to school due to harassment by Israeli troops. Spin doctor it into whatever you want.
Woof!
It's so good to see all of you in one thread. Now all we have to haggle is which is see no, which is hear no and which is speak no evil?. JTF, the link speaks of Palestinian kids not being able to get to school due to harassment by Israeli troops. Spin doctor it into whatever you want.
Woof!
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
May 6th, 2008, 06:53 PM
I understood the issue to be "what can the west bank residents do to improve their lot?".
Loot youth centres? There's a great response to Israeli harrassment. Pull the kids out of school to support "resistance" fighters, theres another great idea.
edit: O yeah, and let's not forget about firebombing the guy who's actually trying to nurture an environment of mutual repect and dialog between the two peoples. Can't have that, now, can we. Might lead to, God help us, peaceful co-existance with Jews on an equal and mutually respectful basis.
I see, I hear, and I speak.
Bow wow.
Quoting lone wolf
Harrassment by Israeli troops was one difficulty of many mentioned in the article. Taking that, isolating it to pretend it's the only reason, then trying to create the impression that as a result, no children are getting to school at all.....is spin. To put it mildly.
JTF, the link speaks of Palestinian kids not being able to get to school due to harassment by Israeli troops. Spin doctor it into whatever you want.
Woof!
Woof!
I understood the issue to be "what can the west bank residents do to improve their lot?".
Loot youth centres? There's a great response to Israeli harrassment. Pull the kids out of school to support "resistance" fighters, theres another great idea.
edit: O yeah, and let's not forget about firebombing the guy who's actually trying to nurture an environment of mutual repect and dialog between the two peoples. Can't have that, now, can we. Might lead to, God help us, peaceful co-existance with Jews on an equal and mutually respectful basis.
I see, I hear, and I speak.
Bow wow.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 6th, 2008, 08:00 PM
My whole point with you, JTF, was people who can neither get to work or to school because of walls, check points and belligerent guards. What is it with people who cloud big pictures with petty details and specifics with entire spectrums?
Woof!
My whole point with you, JTF, was people who can neither get to work or to school because of walls, check points and belligerent guards. What is it with people who cloud big pictures with petty details and specifics with entire spectrums?
Woof!
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
May 6th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Quoting lone wolf
And my point is that why does that need to be end of story? What percentage of the population can't get to work or school because of walls, checkpoints, or belligerent guards? Life there sucks, that's a given. The question is, what do you do to make it stop sucking, or at least suck less? Someone asked me what west bank residents can do for themselves, and I made some suggestions. There are difficulties there. That doesn't mean the entire population is helpless to do anything to make it better.
My whole point with you, JTF, was people who can neither get to work or to school because of walls, check points and belligerent guards.
Woof!
Woof!
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 6th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Woof!
Quoting Just the Facts
...and my point is desperation caused by frustration at the hands of unconscionable bureaucracy is bound to breed contempt and be the fuel for violence. True, some suicide bombers are just plain nuts in search of rainbows. Some do it because they have nothing left to lose.
And my point is that why does that need to be end of story? What percentage of the population can't get to work or school because of walls, checkpoints, or belligerent guards? Life there sucks, that's a given. The question is, what do you do to make it stop sucking, or at least suck less? Someone asked me what west bank residents can do for themselves, and I made some suggestions. There are difficulties there. That doesn't mean the entire population is helpless to do anything to make it better.
Woof!
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 6th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Woof!
Quoting Zzarchov
It justifies nothing, but nice bit of between the lines surfing and interpretation to make a statement read what you want to read. Forget the head games, Zorch. I've countered the best of 'em.....
Uh huh,
So desperation and frustration means anything the Palestinians do is justified (including murdering children, even their own)
But desperation and frustration does not in any way apply to Israeli actions.
Nice bit of hypocrisy there.
So desperation and frustration means anything the Palestinians do is justified (including murdering children, even their own)
But desperation and frustration does not in any way apply to Israeli actions.
Nice bit of hypocrisy there.
Woof!
House Member
Posts: 2,445
Location: SW Ontario
Location: SW Ontario
May 6th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Quoting lone wolf
There's always the exception to the rule, I guess, but I think they're pretty much in search of rainbows.
...and my point is desperation caused by frustration at the hands of unconscionable bureaucracy is bound to breed contempt and be the fuel for violence. True, some suicide bombers are just plain nuts in search of rainbows. Some do it because they have nothing left to lose.
Woof!
Woof!
Electoral Member
Posts: 218
May 6th, 2008, 10:14 PM
Israel uses fear and demoralization. Airport, hospitals, Docks bombed, Israelis may do whatever they wish and Palestinians are to smile--"Uncle Tomming" But I love all the wisdom you passed on to me. Why could the people in the Warsaw Ghetto not make a go of it? No one flaggulates in the Palestinian territory without permission.
Sharon and son, Olmert -- crimminals?
Colpy-Quote in red>As I said before: the ONLY people that put forth the "four million dead at Aushwitz" figure were the propagandists of the communist bloc states...that is a jewish propaganda line-Jews used the 4 million in universities etc. What you are telling me is that 2,900,000 were now killed somewhere else because they were not killed at Auschwitz. I guess you need to revise the numbers and find some other place where they were killed? I use the 2.9 million number GENEROUSLY since this was in the news today----
--- March of the Living on May 1, an annual event at the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau that honors the memory of some 6 million Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
At least 1.1 million people, including Jews, Poles and Roma, perished in the camp's gas chambers or from starvation, disease and forced labor. Why or Why not and ? In 1989the claim was 1.5 million mostly Jews-That is what the plaque at Auschwitz states. In 1990 it was 1.1 million Jews and now today I see 1.1 milion including 400,000 non JEWS so does this now reduce the Number of Jews that died at Aschwitz 700,000. So now we have gone from 4 million to 700,000. 3.3 million died somewhere else or never died or never existed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080507/...n32SlBDqNvaA8F
...that is why the figure was instantly revised when the Bloc collapsed in 1989.....no serious historian from the west ever accepted that figure, therefore it was NEVER included in the 6 million Jews that western historians say died.
Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1
million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
COLPY-Until 1989 the plaqu at Aschwitz read
FOUR MILLION
PEOPLE SUFFERED
AND DIED HERE
AT THE HANDS
OF THE NAZI
MURDERERS
BETWEEN THE YEARS
1940-1945
After the second Zündel trial in Canada, the inscriptions on the plaques in Auschwitz were removed
By 1992 http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memor...itz/University of Minnesota--I think that is in the west--updated justifications but that's all folks --
Israel uses fear and demoralization. Airport, hospitals, Docks bombed, Israelis may do whatever they wish and Palestinians are to smile--"Uncle Tomming" But I love all the wisdom you passed on to me. Why could the people in the Warsaw Ghetto not make a go of it? No one flaggulates in the Palestinian territory without permission.
Sharon and son, Olmert -- crimminals?
Colpy-Quote in red>As I said before: the ONLY people that put forth the "four million dead at Aushwitz" figure were the propagandists of the communist bloc states...that is a jewish propaganda line-Jews used the 4 million in universities etc. What you are telling me is that 2,900,000 were now killed somewhere else because they were not killed at Auschwitz. I guess you need to revise the numbers and find some other place where they were killed? I use the 2.9 million number GENEROUSLY since this was in the news today----
--- March of the Living on May 1, an annual event at the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau that honors the memory of some 6 million Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
At least 1.1 million people, including Jews, Poles and Roma, perished in the camp's gas chambers or from starvation, disease and forced labor. Why or Why not and ? In 1989the claim was 1.5 million mostly Jews-That is what the plaque at Auschwitz states. In 1990 it was 1.1 million Jews and now today I see 1.1 milion including 400,000 non JEWS so does this now reduce the Number of Jews that died at Aschwitz 700,000. So now we have gone from 4 million to 700,000. 3.3 million died somewhere else or never died or never existed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080507/...n32SlBDqNvaA8F
...that is why the figure was instantly revised when the Bloc collapsed in 1989.....no serious historian from the west ever accepted that figure, therefore it was NEVER included in the 6 million Jews that western historians say died.
Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1
million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
COLPY-Until 1989 the plaqu at Aschwitz read
FOUR MILLION
PEOPLE SUFFERED
AND DIED HERE
AT THE HANDS
OF THE NAZI
MURDERERS
BETWEEN THE YEARS
1940-1945
After the second Zündel trial in Canada, the inscriptions on the plaques in Auschwitz were removed
By 1992 http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memor...itz/University of Minnesota--I think that is in the west--updated justifications but that's all folks --
House Member
Posts: 3,093
May 6th, 2008, 10:21 PM
The best counter is that Gaza is dying by the sword because it wants to live by the sword.
Quoting lone wolf
Yes, but someday you'll have to actually effectively counter them. So far you've come with what boils down to "Its ok for Palestinians to murder people, they are angry" and that Jews are mostly swindlers and cheats (or at least have too many swindlers giving the rest a bad name?).
It justifies nothing, but nice bit of between the lines surfing and interpretation to make a statement read what you want to read. Forget the head games, Zorch. I've countered the best of 'em.....
Woof!
Woof!
The best counter is that Gaza is dying by the sword because it wants to live by the sword.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 6th, 2008, 10:40 PM
Woof!
Quoting Zzarchov
Read it again, Zorch - without manipulating the words into the way you want to understand it. It's far from a black and white issue. Perhaps that's what confuses you.
Yes, but someday you'll have to actually effectively counter them. So far you've come with what boils down to "Its ok for Palestinians to murder people, they are angry" and that Jews are mostly swindlers and cheats (or at least have too many swindlers giving the rest a bad name?).
The best counter is that Gaza is dying by the sword because it wants to live by the sword.
The best counter is that Gaza is dying by the sword because it wants to live by the sword.
Woof!
Senate Member
Posts: 5,230
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
May 6th, 2008, 10:45 PM
You know, you have already made up your mind, so I am just presenting the facts for anyone else here gullible enough to believe the Holocaust didn't happen, or was smaller than claimed...............
I said the only people who put forth the 4 million figure for Auschwitz were Communist Bloc propagandists......that that figure was NEVER ACCEPTED by western historians, and therefore was NEVER part of the 6 million...........to refute that you point out that the SIGN (for God's sake!) said four million died here............
Now ask yourself....WHERE IS AuschwitZ???? Who put up the sign?
In POLAND.
You know, the country that was part of the Communist Bloc until 1989, therefore part of the lie of 4 million dying there?....Geezus!
Then I'm given a reference to an on-line newspaper....good LOrd, can you people PLEASE learn what constitutes a historical reference......and even that reference refers to Auschwitz numbers only in passing.....
At least means "probably more", Just thought I'd tell you
Quoting einmensch
Bull****.
Israel uses fear and demoralization. Airport, hospitals, Docks bombed, Israelis may do whatever they wish and Palestinians are to smile--"Uncle Tomming" But I love all the wisdom you passed on to me. Why could the people in the Warsaw Ghetto not make a go of it? No one flaggulates in the Palestinian territory without permission.
Sharon and son, Olmert -- crimminals?
Colpy-Quote in red>As I said before: the ONLY people that put forth the "four million dead at Aushwitz" figure were the propagandists of the communist bloc states...that is a jewish propaganda line-Jews used the 4 million in universities etc. What you are telling me is that 2,900,000 were now killed somewhere else because they were not killed at Auschwitz. I guess you need to revise the numbers and find some other place where they were killed? I use the 2.9 million number GENEROUSLY since this was in the news today----
--- March of the Living on May 1, an annual event at the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau that honors the memory of some 6 million Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
At least 1.1 million people, including Jews, Poles and Roma, perished in the camp's gas chambers or from starvation, disease and forced labor. Why or Why not and ? In 1989the claim was 1.5 million mostly Jews-That is what the plaque at Auschwitz states. In 1990 it was 1.1 million Jews and now today I see 1.1 milion including 400,000 non JEWS so does this now reduce the Number of Jews that died at Aschwitz 700,000. So now we have gone from 4 million to 700,000. 3.3 million died somewhere else or never died or never existed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080507/...n32SlBDqNvaA8F
...that is why the figure was instantly revised when the Bloc collapsed in 1989.....no serious historian from the west ever accepted that figure, therefore it was NEVER included in the 6 million Jews that western historians say died.
Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1
million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
COLPY-Until 1989 the plaqu at Aschwitz read
FOUR MILLION
PEOPLE SUFFERED
AND DIED HERE
AT THE HANDS
OF THE NAZI
MURDERERS
BETWEEN THE YEARS
1940-1945
After the second Zündel trial in Canada, the inscriptions on the plaques in Auschwitz were removed
By 1992 http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memor...itz/University of Minnesota--I think that is in the west--updated justifications but that's all folks --
Sharon and son, Olmert -- crimminals?
Colpy-Quote in red>As I said before: the ONLY people that put forth the "four million dead at Aushwitz" figure were the propagandists of the communist bloc states...that is a jewish propaganda line-Jews used the 4 million in universities etc. What you are telling me is that 2,900,000 were now killed somewhere else because they were not killed at Auschwitz. I guess you need to revise the numbers and find some other place where they were killed? I use the 2.9 million number GENEROUSLY since this was in the news today----
--- March of the Living on May 1, an annual event at the former Nazi death camp of Auschwitz-Birkenau that honors the memory of some 6 million Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
At least 1.1 million people, including Jews, Poles and Roma, perished in the camp's gas chambers or from starvation, disease and forced labor. Why or Why not and ? In 1989the claim was 1.5 million mostly Jews-That is what the plaque at Auschwitz states. In 1990 it was 1.1 million Jews and now today I see 1.1 milion including 400,000 non JEWS so does this now reduce the Number of Jews that died at Aschwitz 700,000. So now we have gone from 4 million to 700,000. 3.3 million died somewhere else or never died or never existed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080507/...n32SlBDqNvaA8F
...that is why the figure was instantly revised when the Bloc collapsed in 1989.....no serious historian from the west ever accepted that figure, therefore it was NEVER included in the 6 million Jews that western historians say died.
Previous to 1992, anyone who publicly doubted the 4.1
million"gassing" deaths at Auschwitz was labeled an anti-Semite,
COLPY-Until 1989 the plaqu at Aschwitz read
FOUR MILLION
PEOPLE SUFFERED
AND DIED HERE
AT THE HANDS
OF THE NAZI
MURDERERS
BETWEEN THE YEARS
1940-1945
After the second Zündel trial in Canada, the inscriptions on the plaques in Auschwitz were removed
By 1992 http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memor...itz/University of Minnesota--I think that is in the west--updated justifications but that's all folks --
You know, you have already made up your mind, so I am just presenting the facts for anyone else here gullible enough to believe the Holocaust didn't happen, or was smaller than claimed...............
I said the only people who put forth the 4 million figure for Auschwitz were Communist Bloc propagandists......that that figure was NEVER ACCEPTED by western historians, and therefore was NEVER part of the 6 million...........to refute that you point out that the SIGN (for God's sake!) said four million died here............
Now ask yourself....WHERE IS AuschwitZ???? Who put up the sign?
In POLAND.
You know, the country that was part of the Communist Bloc until 1989, therefore part of the lie of 4 million dying there?....Geezus!
Then I'm given a reference to an on-line newspaper....good LOrd, can you people PLEASE learn what constitutes a historical reference......and even that reference refers to Auschwitz numbers only in passing.....
Quote:
(my emphasis added) At least 1.1 million people, including Jews, Poles and Roma, perished in the camp's gas chambers or from starvation, disease and forced labor. The camp was liberated in January 1945 by Soviet troops.
At least means "probably more", Just thought I'd tell you
House Member
Posts: 3,093
May 7th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Bombing a kindergarten for instance is a black and white issue (its wrong).
Move up a layer and you get another frame of grey
Was it an accident (criminally negligent) or intentional (sociopathic murder)
Quoting lone wolf
I think the situation as a whole is not black and white, but each individual component can usually be broken down to black or white:
Read it again, Zorch - without manipulating the words into the way you want to understand it. It's far from a black and white issue. Perhaps that's what confuses you.
Woof!
Woof!
Bombing a kindergarten for instance is a black and white issue (its wrong).
Move up a layer and you get another frame of grey
Was it an accident (criminally negligent) or intentional (sociopathic murder)
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 5,514
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
May 7th, 2008, 06:48 PM
There is no black or white, right or wrong or left and right because it is all black and white, right and wrong and left or right. Both sides in the whole stinking mess are equally guilty and neither will ever seek common ground. I truly believe the only way to find a solution is to lock them into a space together - without outside interference - and may the winner win.
Quoting Zzarchov
Your accusations that I am speaking out of hate for your beloved Israel, when in fact, I have made observations you simply cannot accept is where we have come to loggerheads, Zorch. There is no need to cloud it further for you and I cannot have a civil discussion about issues that fire so much emotion.
I think the situation as a whole is not black and white, but each individual component can usually be broken down to black or white:
Bombing a kindergarten for instance is a black and white issue (its wrong).
Move up a layer and you get another frame of grey
Was it an accident (criminally negligent) or intentional (sociopathic murder)
Bombing a kindergarten for instance is a black and white issue (its wrong).
Move up a layer and you get another frame of grey
Was it an accident (criminally negligent) or intentional (sociopathic murder)
There is no black or white, right or wrong or left and right because it is all black and white, right and wrong and left or right. Both sides in the whole stinking mess are equally guilty and neither will ever seek common ground. I truly believe the only way to find a solution is to lock them into a space together - without outside interference - and may the winner win.
