Palestine independence

April 11th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Ah then what? Well a solution is beyond my powers I can only apply the lessons of history and predict with 99% accuracy continued suffering and fear and death and destruction all culminating in the destruction of Israel the object of the discord based on it's overwhelming power in the region which affords it nothing in the long term. No nation will endure that insists on it's exceptional and exclusive special status with a fictitious god. It is not in the interest of the nations of earth to permit a religious state to exist.
Jews and more correctly Israelis have made a suckers bet with respect to continuation apart from the rest of mankind. Ultimately that deal requires the elimination of all threats, that means me and mine, so the them or us position seems to indicate sooner or later that one side or the other prevails finally and for all time. Of course this is exactly the business oportunity you mentioned, so from a certain perspective there is no problem. I would hope those elements are cornered by rabid dogs and torn to ribbons of bloody flesh to become finally the dog crap that they really are. Untill then we'll just have to endure the BS of the MSM till we puke.

April 11th, 2008, 01:00 PM

I don't have a solution.

But a good start would be to exposethe truth about what Zionists have done and are doing. People percieve Palestinians as terrorists because they have been misinformed by our news. Notice how less confusing this issue becomes as the truth comes out.

Personally I'd like to see something like this happen:

It would have to be run by an objective third party. (Maybe South Africa) and not become a witch hunt. The purpose would be to get at the truth, not punish. If people confess what they've done then they should be granted amnesty.

By the way, I'm not suggesting Palestinians are the only victims and Israelis are the only perpetrators. Lots of stuff happened by lots of people. What's important is that truth comes out, not punishing people.

Once the dust settles, a fair and just solution may be possible. Certainly a fair and just settlement will never happen if its something the US, Israel and a few bribed Palestinians agree to impose on the rest of the Palestinians as has been attempted more than once.

One possibility is Israel (including the occupied territories) becoming a unified secular state. Once that happens it might be possible to free millions of Palestinians living in the refugee/concentration camps.

Also, the nations which voted to create Israel in 1948 (including Canada) should take responsibility for the consequences of their vote. That might mean Israeli and Palestinian emigration on a massive scale to these countries as compensation for creating this problem.

April 11th, 2008, 01:29 PM



Genocide announced
Bombs would fall under other circumstances, but when influential rabbis call for the total annihilation of the Palestinians the world watches without blinking

Saleh Al-Naami, Al-Ahram Weekly


April 10, 2008

"All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts." This was the religious opinion issued one week ago by Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute, a long-established religious institute attended by students and soldiers in the Israeli settlements of the West Bank. In an article published by numerous religious Israeli newspapers two weeks ago and run by the liberal Haaretz on 26 March, Rosen asserted that there is evidence in the Torah to justify this stand. Rosen, an authority able to issue religious opinions for Jews, wrote that Palestinians are like the nation of Amalekites that attacked the Israelite tribes on their way to Jerusalem after they had fled from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. He wrote that the Lord sent down in the Torah a ruling that allowed the Jews to kill the Amalekites, and that this ruling is known in Jewish jurisprudence.

Rosen's article, which created a lot of noise in Israel, included the text of the ruling in the Torah: "Annihilate the Amalekites from the beginning to the end. Kill them and wrest them from their possessions. Show them no mercy. Kill continuously, one after the other. Leave no child, plant, or tree. Kill their beasts, from camels to donkeys." Rosen adds that the Amalekites are not a particular race or religion, but rather all those who hate the Jews for religious or national motives. Rosen goes as far as saying that the "Amalekites will remain as long as there are Jews. In every age Amalekites will surface from other races to attack the Jews, and thus the war against them must be global." He urges application of the "Amalekites ruling" and says that the Jews must undertake to implement it in all eras because it is a "divine commandment".

Rosen does not hesitate to define the "Amalekites of this age" as the Palestinians. He writes, "those who kill students as they recite the Torah, and fire missiles on the city of Siderot, spread terror in the hearts of men and women. Those who dance over blood are the Amalekites, and we must respond with counter-hatred. We must uproot any trace of humanitarianism in dealing with them so that we emerge victorious."

The true outrage is that most of those authorised to issue Jewish religious opinions support the view of Rabbi Rosen, as confirmed by Haaretz newspaper. At the head of those supporting his opinion is Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, the lea

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m42961&hd=&size=1&l=e


This is the despicability that our government has allied us with via the sneaky treaty signed with Israel.

April 11th, 2008, 02:03 PM

Hmmmm...push all of the Jews into the sea?

April 11th, 2008, 02:20 PM

You did see my response above. I said I didn't know a solution. But I am certain the first step is learning the truth.

April 11th, 2008, 03:14 PM

It doesn't matter 'of' the origin, as either side can spout all they want to about who did
'what' first. But when they have their independence and their state, it will stop from
the israeli side, but we all know that it will never stop from the palestinian side, they
'just' want israel 'gone' 'gone' gone'!!!!

April 11th, 2008, 03:15 PM

Set Tibet free----why does Palestine not receive the same support ?

April 11th, 2008, 03:19 PM

Ahhh

Gaza WAS set free.....it immediately became a launch pad for attacks on Israel.

I doubt, if China left Tibet, that the Monks would start launching dozens of rockets a day into China.......

WAY too simplistic......

April 11th, 2008, 03:44 PM

That's right, I have lots of sympathy for Palestinians, or probably pity is the better word.
But if they would give much more of their energy toward their 'own' people, and a little
less toward Israel, they could be much better off, but they don't give a tinkers damn about improving their own situation and bettering themselves, and neither do their
neighboring arab countries, but they will go to any lengths to figure out how to send
rockets into israel, I just shake my head again, as I have for many many years, they
don't seem to have pride in themselves, or each other, and their children learn at a
very very young age to want death to israel and then they are taught how to kill. Not
what little children should be learning, so, I have no respect for their system at all.
Israel isn't totally innocent either, but I have respect for their innitiative to better
themselves, and of course I like their western connection, and their democracy.
If British Columbia was israel, and alberta was the palestinians, and they were always
figuring out how to kill us, and sending rockets over the rockies, and we had to live
with that each and every day, we would be doing things to them as well, and we
wouldn't be just sitting here, turning the other cheek.
Get your independence for 'cripe sake', but then, who would pay your hydro bills, you
might have to use some of your blood money to build some infrastructure, oh my,
what a waste of good 'rocket' money.

April 11th, 2008, 03:45 PM

There is no hunger in Gaza---->
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...?itemNo=703804


But today in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank an insidious hunger has the Palestinian people in its grip. Hidden in the anaemic blood of children or lost in the statistics of stunted growth, a dreadful, silent malnutrition is stalking the Palestinians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003...ananalysispage <-note date

Friday, December 07, 2007

Imposed Hunger in Gaza, The Army in Indonesia. Questions of Logic and Activism.


The UN World Food Program estimates that, in the wake of Israel's cutoffs,"Food imports into the Gaza Strip are only enough to meet 41 percent of demand," (paraphrase by the UN-sponsored news agency, IRIN. IRIN, Jerusalem, "Only 41 percent of Gaza's food import needs being met," 6 December 2007), ie. Gazan food intake has been cut by a shock 59 percent.

Even a small cut in food consumption can stunt or kill already hungry people, particularly infants in the brain-development stage.
http://www.allannairn.com/2007/12/im...a-army-in.html

No hunger in Gaza so let's talk about NAZIS.

Hunger in Israel can't be the fault of Israel so it must be the fault of the Palestinian terrorists.

April 11th, 2008, 04:58 PM

Since even the minimal interdiction against murdering a Gentile outright applies only to 'Gentiles with whom we [the Jews] are not at war', various rabbinical commentators in the past drew the logical conclusion that in wartime all Gentiles belonging to a hostile population may, or even should be killed.6 Since 1973 this doctrine is being publicly propagated for the guidance of religious Israeli soldiers. The first such official exhortation was included in a booklet published by the Central Region Command of the Israeli Army, whose area includes the West Bank. In this booklet the Command's Chief Chaplain writes:

Reply of Shun 'on Weiser to Moshe
'With the help of Heaven. Dear Moshe, Greetings.
'I am starting this letter this evening although I know I cannot finish it this evening, both because I am busy and because I would like to make it a long letter, to answer your questions in full, for which purpose I shall have to copy out some of the sayings of our sages, of blessed memory, and interpret them.11
'The non-Jewish nations have a custom according to which war has its own rules, like those of a game, like the rules of football or basketball. But according to the sayings of our sages, of blessed memory, [ ... ] war for us is not a game but a vital necessity, and only by this standard must we decide how to wage it. On the one hand .... ] we seem to learn that if a Jew murders a Gentile, he is regarded as a murderer and, except for the fact that no court has the right to punish him, the gravity of the deed is like that of any other murder. But we find in the very same authorities in another place [ ... that Rabbi Shim'on used to say: "The best of Gentiles - kill him; the best of snakes dash out its brains."
'It might perhaps be argued that the expression "kill" in the saying of R. Shim'on is only figurative and should not be taken literally but as meaning "oppress" or some similar attitude, and in this way we also avoid a contradiction with the authorities quoted earlier. Or one might argue that this saying, though meant literally, is [merely] his own personal opinion, disputed by other sages [quoted earlier]. But we find the true explanation in the Tosalot.12 There [ .... ] we learn the following comment on the talmudic pronouncement that Gentiles who fall into a well should not be helped out, but neither should they be pushed into the well to be killed, which means that they should neither be saved from death nor killed directly. And the Tosafot write as follows:
"And if it is queried [because] in another place it was said The best of Gentiles - kill him, then the answer is that this [saying] is meant for wartime." [ ... ]
'According to the commentators of the Tosafot, a distinction must be made between wartime and peace, so that although during peace time it is forbidden to kill Gentiles, in a case that occurs in wartime it is a mitzvah [imperative, religious duty] to kill them.[...]
'And this is the difference between a Jew and a Gentile: although the rule "Whoever comes to kill you, kill him first" applies to a Jew, as was said in Tractate Sanhednn [of the Talmud], page 72a, still it only applies to him if there is [actual] ground to fear that he is coming to kill you. But a Gentile during wartime is usually to be presumed so, except when it is quite clear that he has no evil intent. This is the rule of "purity of weapons" according to the Halakhah - and not the alien conception which is now accepted in the Israeli army and which has been the cause of many [Jewish] casualties. I enclose a newspaper cutting with the speech made last week in the Knesset by Rabbi Kalman Kahana, which shows in a very lifelike - and also painful - way how this "purity of weapons" has caused deaths.
'I conclude here, hoping that you will not find the length of this letter irksome. This subject was being discussed even without your letter, but your letter caused me to write up the whole matter.

'Be in peace, you and all Jews, and [I hope to] see you soon, as you say. Yours - Shim'on.

Reply of Moshe to R. Shun 'on Weiser
'To His Honor, my dear Rabbi,
'First I hope that you and your family are in health and are all right.
'I have received your long letter and am grateful for your personal watch over me, for I assume that you write to many, and most of your time is taken up with your studies in your own program.
'Therefore my thanks to you are doubly deep.
'As for the letter itself, I have understood it as follows:
'In wartime I am not merely permitted, but enjoined to kill every Arab man and woman whom I chance upon, if there is reason to fear that they help in the war against us, directly or indirectly. And as far as I am concerned I have to kill them even if that might result in an involvement with the military law. I think that this matter of the purity of weapons should be transmitted to educational institutions, at least the religious ones, so that they should have a position about this subject and so that they will not wander in the broad fields of "logic", especially on this subject; and the rule has to be explained as it should be followed in practice. For, I am sorry to say, I have seen different types of "logic" here even among the religious comrades. I do hope that you shall be active in this, so that our boys will know the line of their ancestors clearly and unambiguously.
'I conclude here, hoping that when the [training] course ends, in about a month, I shall be able to come to the yeshivah [talmudic college]. Greetings - Moshe.'

When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed... Under no circumstances should an Arab be trusted, even if he makes an impression of being civilized ... In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good.7
The same doctrine is expounded in the following exchange of letters between a young Israeli soldier and his rabbi, published in the yearbook of one of the country's most prestigious religious colleges, Midrashiyyat No'am, where many leaders and activists of the National Religious Party and Gush Emunim have been educated.8
Israel Shahak
In addition to laws such as those mentioned so far, which are directed at all Gentiles in the Land of Israel, an even greater evil influence arises from special laws against the ancient Canaanites and other nations who lived in Palestine before its conquest by Joshua, as well as against the Amalekites. All those nations must be utterly exterminated, and the Talmud and talmudic literature reiterate the genocidal biblical exhortations with even greater vehemence. Influential rabbis, who have a considerable following among Israeli army officers, identify the Palestinians (or even all Arabs) with those ancient nations, so that commands like 'thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth'56 acquire a topical meaning. In fact, it is not uncommon for reserve soldiers called up to do a tour of duty in the Gaza Strip to be given an 'educational lecture' in which they are told that the Palestinians of Gaza are 'like the Amalekites'. Biblical verses exhorting to genocide of the Midianite57 were solemnly quoted by an important Israeli rabbi in justification of the Qibbiya massacre,58 and this pronouncement has gained wide circulation in the Israeli army. There are many similar examples of bloodthirsty rabbinical pronouncements against the Palestinians, based on these laws.

April 11th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Earth as One, the occupied territories cannot by definition become part of a unified state, by the definition of occupied territories, that means they are foriegn and Israel cannot annex them. If annexing them was in the cards, It is more than free under international law to relocate its citizens, and if it acts like the rest of the region just disenfranchise them again and leave palestinians totally screwed.

April 11th, 2008, 10:06 PM

Z, your empathy toward the suffering of your fellow human beings is truly underwhelming. Why do you hate these people?

April 11th, 2008, 10:19 PM

I don't hate them, I just don't feel the need to over-inflate their plight as some cruel act of the world rather than the logical flow of consequences they set in motion themselves and refuse to halt. There are people out there who have suffered in a way truly deserving of whole hearted support..but with no Jews, just plenty of blacks, I can't help but feel bitter that so much attention is one group of self-destructive "victims".

Its like fawning over a heroine addict while someone with curable disease dies in the alley.


How Palestine could solve itself: Stop killing people. Not only is non-violent resistance more effective, it ends suffering.

Take even 1% of the effort spent on "Mid-east Peace talks" to mediating disputes in Africa and alot more people would be helped.

The solution to the middle east is simple: Don't start a war if you don't want to be in a war. If you do want to be in a war, stop complaining when you get shot at.

April 11th, 2008, 10:21 PM

You're better than that EAO, don't degrade yourself so.

April 12th, 2008, 01:30 AM

Z, over four million Palestinians live in refugee camps. You seem to have the opinion that all of them are killers. If that were true, how many murderers and murder victims would that make?

Fact is 37% of Palestinians are under 15.
More than a third of the people Israel collectively punishes are children. Thats more than a million innocent victims.

But I agree with you as far as non-violence is concerned. A single image of a starving innocent child will do more for the Palestinian cause than any suicide bomber. Think what a million could do. That is... if people noticed.

April 12th, 2008, 05:46 AM

Then they aren't refugees...They're the off spring of refugees off spring.

People in refugee camps should have some fore thought about breeding, so as not to add to an already dismal situation and not put a child in that situation.

My opinion of Palestinians just dropped. Thanx for telling me about their asinine behavior eao.

April 12th, 2008, 02:17 PM

I'd have to concur. Those Palestinians in refugee camps are in dismal straight, because the nation they were born into is running an aparatheid system, not giving them equal rights due to their ethnic origin.

They aren't Palestinian, they are Lebanese etc etc etc.

Their plight is not that of those in Palestine, who elected their leadership..knowing the consequences (and I don't buy for a moment they couldn't put it togethor, they aren't inferior species unable to grasp the ramifacations of electing in a group considered terrorist when you economy is proped up by aid donors.)

They made a choice, as informed adults and can be expected to live with the decisions they have made, over and over again. Their is much to be sad for in their world, but its their own doing, they were offered so much at Camp David, but if they turned it down as they bargain in bad faith. Its not bargaining, its an ultimatum if you refuse to budge.