Strong rebuttal from Pakistan

dancing-loon

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Pakistan blasts Dion for hint of NATO intervention (18/01/2008 11:47:09 AM)

Pakistani officials chided Liberal Leader Stephane Dion for suggesting NATO troops should intervene in Pakistan to help curb the flow of terrorists across the border it shares with Afghanistan.

In a statement released by the Pakistan High Commission in Ottawa, the government said it was "dismayed" by the opposition leader's comments, adding that the government is fully capable of handling its own security matters.
"It shows a lack of understanding of the ground realities. We have, at the highest level, made it clear that Pakistan will not allow any foreign forces to operate within its territory under any circumstances," read the statement, released late Thursday.

Dion and Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff made a brief visit to Afghanistan last week, meeting with President Hamid Karzai. Upon their return, Dion said NATO will never bring peace to Afghanistan so long as the Taliban can escape across the border into Pakistan.

Read full article here: http://tinyurl.com/ypn9af
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Dion means well, but boy, did he step into a wasp nest!! He puts his finger right on the sore spot... Taliban training camps across the border in Pakistan!!

His remarks will have some fallout! Perhaps consequences! If Pakistan can't keep the Taliban from hiding in the country, someone else will have to go in and give them a hand!!

At one time, I still see his agitated face on TV, he was dead set against us remaining in Afghanistan, and now he proposes we go across the border into Pakistan and ?? shoot the Taliban, take them prisoners or what? Scatter them, burn down their "religious schools"?

The Taliban are such a hot potato, anyone saying something is insulting another one!

What is your take on Dion's suggestion?
 

#juan

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Dion was absolutely right. Pakistan has long been, and still is the big problem in Afghanistan. The Taliban come and go as they like in that country. I suspect that the Taliban's arms and the dynamite for all the roadside bombs comes from Pakistan with the blessing of Mushariff and his crowd.
 

dancing-loon

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Dion was absolutely right. Pakistan has long been, and still is the big problem in Afghanistan. The Taliban come and go as they like in that country. I suspect that the Taliban's arms and the dynamite for all the roadside bombs comes from Pakistan with the blessing of Mushariff and his crowd.
That would mean Musharraff is backstabbing the Americans? In that case he is playing a very dangerous game!! I guess he relies on his A-Bomb as a scare = "attack me and I blow up the whole region!"
So what if NATO crosses the border? I guess a new war would start... NATO against the Taliban AND Pakistan!! That's why Canada should pull out of there now, we only get embroiled in something that is none of our business.
 

darkbeaver

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“Don’t Mess With Us,”

Pakistan’s Nukes Are Here To Stay, Get Used To It

By Ahmed Quraishi

The ‘real’ Pakistani officials in charge of the nation’s vast nuclear and strategic arsenal have spent the past few months quietly laughing at the doomsday scenarios that American politicians and media organizations have been spinning for months now. These Pakistani officials say they are calm because of their confidence in their capabilities. However, this Pakistani calm should not be mistaken for weakness. “My message is: Don’t mess with us,” says Air Commodore Khalid Banuri, with pride. Continue
 

gopher

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``the Taliban's arms and the dynamite for all the roadside bombs comes from Pakistan with the blessing of Mushariff and his crowd. ``


And from the money supplied by Bush.
 

dancing-loon

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I can't follow the winding roads of politics! Especially not when I should be in bed already!

Gopher;
I know about the fighter jets, but they were paid for by Pakistan. What other money or aid from the US do you mean?
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Seriously?

How can the same people who call a 70 dead soldiers a lost and pointless quagmire of a war, even suggest attacking Pakistan, a nation that is better armed, equiped and trained than us, which has nuclear capabilities.

Its a little like if Haiti said it would land in Nova Scotia and hunt its political enemies down in our rural areas. Fat chance.

If you think America is getting involved, fat chance as well. It isn't going to lose 30 to 40,000 troops, America doesn't have the stomach for a real war since Vietnam.
 

CDNBear

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Seriously?

How can the same people who call a 70 dead soldiers a lost and pointless quagmire of a war, even suggest attacking Pakistan, a nation that is better armed, equiped and trained than us, which has nuclear capabilities.
That's simple Z man.

They are as morally bankrupt as the party leader they will follow into hell.

Hell, if Dion was in power, and had he changed the mission perameters with the UN resolution, we wouldn't hear one word of dissent.

The 70 lost, would be for the betterment of mankind and what not, not Imperialist Oil Barons.

I love watching people eat themselves.
 

darkbeaver

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Seriously?

How can the same people who call a 70 dead soldiers a lost and pointless quagmire of a war, even suggest attacking Pakistan, a nation that is better armed, equiped and trained than us, which has nuclear capabilities.

Its a little like if Haiti said it would land in Nova Scotia and hunt its political enemies down in our rural areas. Fat chance.

If you think America is getting involved, fat chance as well. It isn't going to lose 30 to 40,000 troops, America doesn't have the stomach for a real war since Vietnam.

There is no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland.

(George W. Bush, speech on August 7, 2002)

Zzarchov, "full spectrum dominance" that means what is says, that is the objective of all the hostilitys of the last twenty years. In the effort to meet that objective there are "no limits" to the number of western military lives to be expended and no quarter will be shown the manufactured enemy. There will be continued growth of the conflict area untill the entire planet is involved once again in a global war for the supremacy of money and it's power. Do not expect any resolution that does not include the deaths of hundreds of millions, do not expect life ever to be what we thought it was again. We have already been in the early stages of WW3 since the gulf war which can be considered the first (overt) shot. The plans for conquest were developed and put in motion many years ago, and they cannot be reversed, if we understand that we will also understand the need for a flat western economy and what motivation that will provide and who will be labled the enemy. If you don't believe me fine, but the Russians and the Chinese and all the other non western nation most definately do.
 

Zzarchov

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Uh huh, I think you are a bit crazy.

If there was no limit to the number of lives that would be spent, they would be.

Do you even have the faintest idea how impossible these myriad of conspiracies are? You can't get two people to steal office supplies without it getting out. Do you really think you can have thousands upon thousands of support staff, as required for an endevour of that size (if not millions) involved without it becoming public knowledge?

And once it is public knowledge do you not think those equally as vested in stopping them (as they must have someone to oppose, otherwise they would already rule by proxy), would make it a very public very open brawl?

Your "Theories" really on thousands of people who are under some form of complete mental control, and not just nationalism and brainwashing, I mean, literal action by action automated control.

There have been evil governments through history, but by the very nature of an organization that big, they are very very public.
 

jimshort19

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Dancing-loon, "... he was dead set against us remaining in Afghanistan, and now he proposes we go across the border into Pakistan... What is your take on Dion's suggestion? "

Dion is not sincere. By suggesting that the only sensible thing to do is expand the war he wants to demoralize the Canadian effort, to force a withdrawal. By this wise he is acting consistent with his desire to withdraw, and is attempting to popularize defeat now, vs defeat after the loss of thousands of lives. Is Dion he Taliban's Tokyo Rose, or is he right?

It is immoral to fight a losing war, no matter what the cause. The U.N. doesn't have what it takes to beat several thousand geurillas, let alone Pakistan. War with Pakistan is simply not on. Making war in the primitive quagmire of Islamic paranoia hoping to force the peace is pushing a string.
 

dancing-loon

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Dancing-loon, "... he was dead set against us remaining in Afghanistan, and now he proposes we go across the border into Pakistan... What is your take on Dion's suggestion? "

Dion is not sincere. By suggesting that the only sensible thing to do is expand the war he wants to demoralize the Canadian effort, to force a withdrawal. By this wise he is acting consistent with his desire to withdraw, and is attempting to popularize defeat now, vs defeat after the loss of thousands of lives. Is Dion he Taliban's Tokyo Rose, or is he right?

It is immoral to fight a losing war, no matter what the cause. The U.N. doesn't have what it takes to beat several thousand geurillas, let alone Pakistan. War with Pakistan is simply not on. Making war in the primitive quagmire of Islamic paranoia hoping to force the peace is pushing a string.
I don't know the expression "Tokyo Rose".

Question is, "how long is long enough?" It has been six years since October 07.
Now, that you exposed his thinking to me, I feel he is sincere. He makes clear to us and everybody involved in that war what it takes to defeat the Taliban... to go across the border into Pakistan. Since that won't happen too soon, we might as well leave and go home. To stay there is like treading water and wasting precious lives and resources.
 

Praxius

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If you think America is getting involved, fat chance as well. It isn't going to lose 30 to 40,000 troops, America doesn't have the stomach for a real war since Vietnam.

Well also don't forget... they're already gearing up to attack Iran. Like a Man's one track mind, they can only start one war at a time. However just like a man's mind... they also tend to forget to finish what they started inbetween and start another one. So I don't see the US attempting to attack Pakistan until after they attack Iran. But there's plenty here and in between that will make any of that remote anyways without the US suffering major consequences.
 

Praxius

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Oh by the way, you guys have all completely missed the mark on what Dion was talking about. He said a NATO led diplomatic approach to helping in Pakistan, not sending in more of our or anybody else's troops to Pakistan to go get killed in more fighting. I agreed NATO should help get more involved in what's happening over in the Pakistan area of the border, but that could be from supplying better equipment, more intelligence colaberation, requests of operations between the forces to capture someone who fled across the border, etc. At present it was that we're for the most part, supposed to just have faith in their abilities with a little bit of co-operation here and there. But that's not working enough.

It we are to reduce the fighting enough to a point where our own troops can focus more on traning and rotating the Afghan army into our positions and allow the country to be strong enough to setup their own peace deals with the Taliban, then the cross border shopping has to stop. Dion brought up an idea which may work.... His french translations and english accent didn't help to explain his approach all that well.

But then again, wheres the fun in not blowing things out of perspective?
 
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darkbeaver

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Uh huh, I think you are a bit crazy.

If there was no limit to the number of lives that would be spent, they would be.

Do you even have the faintest idea how impossible these myriad of conspiracies are? You can't get two people to steal office supplies without it getting out. Do you really think you can have thousands upon thousands of support staff, as required for an endevour of that size (if not millions) involved without it becoming public knowledge?

And once it is public knowledge do you not think those equally as vested in stopping them (as they must have someone to oppose, otherwise they would already rule by proxy), would make it a very public very open brawl?

Your "Theories" really on thousands of people who are under some form of complete mental control, and not just nationalism and brainwashing, I mean, literal action by action automated control.

There have been evil governments through history, but by the very nature of an organization that big, they are very very public.

They are very public, we live in one, that's what makes it hard to see. The lives are being spent every day Zzarchov, millions already and millions to go, check out WW2 and see how expendable people really are.

Do you even have the faintest idea how impossible these myriad of conspiracies are? You can't get two people to steal office supplies without it getting out. Do you really think you can have thousands upon thousands of support staff, as required for an endevour of that size (if not millions) involved without it becoming public knowledge?

I know it for a fact how absolutly possible they are, it's happend and continues to happen right in front of your eyes but you are busy defending a western position that's been fantasy movie crap from the beginning.

There have been evil governments through history, but by the very nature of an organization that big, they are very very public.[/quote]

Study a little about what went on in Germany during the thirtys and you will see today more clearly.
 

MikeyDB

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Dancing_Loon

Tokyo Rose was a broadcast personality that was a propaganda ploy used by the Japanese to de-moralize Allied Troops during the Second World War. This person broadcast appeals to GI's exhorting them to surrender to the far superior forces of the Emperor...

A similar propaganda function has been seen in many different theatres of war, Germany dis the same thing and Hanoi did as well. Propaganda in the form of radio transmission to troops in the field has become "standard fare" in the age of electronic communications.
 

jimshort19

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Dancing-loon, Tokyo Rose was an Imperial Japanese radio propagandist during the second world war, perhaps the most famous of them all. Her object was to demoralize Americans.

If Dion is right, he is right. The allies of North Korea, North Vietnam, Nazi Germany and on and on have changed the intensity, duration, cost and course of wars. The advent of Iranian and Pakistani interferance in Afghanistan may escalate the war, or cause it to be abandoned by us. Escalation is disaster, defeat is disaster, success is now become disaster as well. Our rationale did not involve tangling with Iran or Pakistan, yet we fight in the midst of them, and now find them collaborators of our enemy, and could antagonize them into becoming our warring enemies.

There is an argument for war, the most baseless and vile arguement disguised as love. The argument is this: in order to make the bloodshed meaninful, we must not abandon our cause. But the lives we've lost were adequately heroic and meaningful the day before they were dead, the next day and forever. This cannot be done or undone by victory or defeat. When our leaders argue that we cannot quit or we spit on the meaningless lives lost, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel for rationale, making the meaning of the war contingent upon victory. In a way, it is true, but in that same way we must make peace the moment we know that we cannot win.

Will we win? In Vietnam the Americans suffered an ends/means reversal. Victory would be way too bloody. The war was already not worth it. Good cause originally, morally overshadowed by the results. The cure was worse than the disease, became the greater evil instead of the lesser.

Why waste money and lives upon this failed state where if we dug a well, bandits would poison it? Yet the cause is just and somebody thinks that we can win. Who is that person? What is his formula? Do you believe him? These questions are worth examination now. I support our troops, win or lose their effort is heroic. But I am not interested in failure. We have lost soldiers in Africa and Asia without declaring wars, without winning wars. Our record, once proud, is stained by failures, Rwanda being perhaps the worst, our own general driven mad by being made the helpless witness to genocide. We boast of peacekeeping between our own NATO allies on Cyprus. This is small glory.

Our forces lack the capacity to dominate Afghanistan, lack the allies, and fight on in good faith anyway. Freedom will not reign in Afghanistan without 50 years of benign colonialism. The American experiment in Iraq is not over, and we've taken on Afghanistan, supposing that with our allies, we could not fail. Our allies leave all of the heavy lifting to the English-speaking world, and we try to project power without colonial authority or presence, a thing that has only been done successfully through dictators or the unconditional surrender of sovereign governments in highly civilized countries.
 
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Zzarchov

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Darkbeaver "Study a little about what went on in Germany during the thirtys and you will see today more clearly."

Yes, Germany was very open, it plainly stated its goals for conquest and racial purity. It didn't hide them in secret meetings, as there was no way something of that scale could be hidden. It wasn't something they hid or tried to misdirect, they flat out told everyone what they planned to do.
 
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darkbeaver

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Darkbeaver "Study a little about what went on in Germany during the thirtys and you will see today more clearly."

Yes, Germany was very open, it plainly stated its goals for conquest and racial purity. It didn't hide them in secret meetings, as there was no way something of that scale could be hidden. It was something they hid or tried to misdirect, they flat out told everyone what they planned to do.

No it wasn't right out in the open.. It was kept well hidden until the very end. Exactly the same langusge and tactics employed by the United States today and any empire of the modern era.