Martin Amis: Islamic states are less evolved

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
48,405
1,667
113
British author Martin Amis has described Islamists as 'anti-Semites, psychotic misogynists and homophobes.'

Martin Amis launches fresh attack on Muslim faith saying Islamic states are 'less evolved'

By LAURA CLARK and TAHIRA YAQOOB
18th October 2007
Daily Mail


The author Martin Amis has claimed he feels 'morally superior' to Muslim states which are not as 'evolved' as the Western world.

Responding to long-running accusations that he is Islamophobic, Amis launched a fresh invective against the Muslim faith and many of its followers.

He admitted his late father and grandfather had been racist but then claimed radical Muslims were the real racists, misogynists and homophobes.


Courting controversy: Amis described Islamists as 'anti-Semites, psychotic misogynists and homophobes'


The 58-year-old defended a proposal he made last year that Muslims be deported and strip-searched in a crackdown on terrorism.

His latest comments came in a TV news interview last night and during the Cheltenham Literature Festival last week.

The Muslim Council of Britain branded them racist and 'shameful'.

In an interview with Jon Snow on Channel Four News, Amis declared: 'I feel morally superior to Islamists, by some distance. I feel an intellectual distance to Islam.

'There are great problems with Islam. The Koran recommends the beating of women.

'The anti-Semites, the psychotic misogynists and the homophobes are the Islamists.'

Days earlier, Amis shocked festivalgoers in Cheltenham with claims that Muslim states are less 'civilised' than Western society.

'Some societies are just more evolved than others,' he said. 'I am not saying these people are genetically incapable of not being terrorists.

'These societies are arming themselves with weapons like the AK47 and blowing people up on buses and Tubes.'

When one member of his audience suggested not all Muslims were terrorists he retorted: 'No one else is doing it.

'Here in the West we have the most evolved society in the world and we are not blowing people up.

'I am just saying some societies are more evolved than others. Young men in those kinds of societies are growing up full of loathing and hatred. Something has to be done about it.'


'Morally superior': Martin Amis with wife Isabel in June


He added: 'I do not mean British Muslims - they are part of our society. I mean Muslim states.

'They used to be more evolved than us, but now we are more evolved than them.

'There is no inoffensive way to put this - by evolved, I mean more civilised. We have more respect for civil society.'


These remarks echo the controversial comments he made during an interview in 2006. On the subject of curbing terrorism, he said: 'There is a definite urge - don't you have it? - to say, "The Muslim community will have to suffer until it gets its house in order".

'Not letting them travel. Deportation - further down the road. Curtailing of freedoms. Strip-searching people who look like they're from the Middle East or from Pakistan. Discriminatory stuff, until it hurts the whole community and they start getting tough with their children.'

Since that interview Amis, the author of London Fields and eight other novels, has taken up a post as professor of creative writing at Manchester University.

A colleague at the university, the Marxist literary critic Terry Eagleton, recently attacked Amis and his father in the preface to his book Ideology.


'Bit dodgy': Martin Amis's father Sir Kingsley in 1975


He described Sir Kingsley Amis as a 'racist, anti-Semitic boor, a drinksodden, self-hating reviler of women, gays and liberals' and compared his son to a 'British National Party thug'.

At last week's literature festival, Amis admitted that racist tendencies run in his family, declaring: 'My grandfather was racist, my father was a bit dodgy and I consider myself pretty free of it but get little urges and impulses now and then.'

In the Channel Four interview, he tried to draw a distinction between Islamists - the radical followers - and Islam, the religion.

'I blame Islamists, the ideology within a religion,' he said.

'All the perpetrators, with a few exceptions, are young men from Pakistan.

'Islamism will be a sink for every Walter Mitty of murder, every functioning schizophrenic, every rampant anti-Semite.

'There is a rage which has been building for the past century which is hoping to rebuild its (Islam's) superiority through violence.'

He went on to insist: 'I do not believe in any persecution of the Muslim community. I think that would be counter productive.'

Condemning his comments, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain said: 'Amis clearly seems to believe many Muslim communities are primitive.

But just because some extremists have committed terrorist acts does not give him licence to denigrate an entire faith community.

'He should be ashamed of himself.'

dailymail.co.uk
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
"'These societies are arming themselves with weapons like the AK47 and blowing people up on buses and Tubes.'

When one member of his audience suggested not all Muslims were terrorists he retorted: 'No one else is doing it.

'Here in the West we have the most evolved society in the world and we are not blowing people up.
"


Unless you count Northern Ireland, Basque, Sardina (or was it Corsica?).

So pretty daft there.



The counterclaim that no society can be more evolved than any other is daft though, was aparatheid south africa equally evolved as say, the netherlands, in the same time period?

Societies are always competing and evolving against each other, but that also means someone is always on top and someone on the bottom.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Sure when we entertain the possibility the "potential" that a less-evolved less-sophisticated society in say Africa or China exists, we can then assuage our feelings of moral turpitude when we kill them or make them slaves.....

De-humanizing societies and the people of these "less-evolved" societies can lead to mass executions and pogroms of forced labor and heck even shipping thousands from Africa to work on plantation fields in America....

How we regard a society and a culture that is different can have enormous effect on human history.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
Well now your self contradicting.

If no society can be less evolved...

Then that means if we endorse slavery we won't be less evolved. After all, if one culture embraces slavery..and one denounces it, and you claim one can't be more evolved than the other...

Then you are in essence saying slavery is an evolved concept. Sorry, cultures are less evolved. Just as our modern culture is more evolved than our culture a hundred years ago (still in living memory)
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
42
48
SW Ontario

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
5,959
66
48
Quebec
Less evovled?
Muslims?
What about the Bible belt in the U.S. man they tend to be radical and a few few bricks short of a load. Theres plenty of terrorist acts in the west. Read the news. Just the agenda is a little different.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
Less evovled?
Muslims?
What about the Bible belt in the U.S. man they tend to be radical and a few few bricks short of a load. Theres plenty of terrorist acts in the west. Read the news. Just the agenda is a little different.

With respect, I haven't heard of many radical Christians in the southern US (ie. from West Palm Beach)* walking into a Jewish neighbourhood (ie. Boca Raton) and blowing themselves up infront of a cafe.



*Yes, I do consider this part of the bible belt.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
5,959
66
48
Quebec
Sorry that did sound like i put them in the same boat.
Basically religious fanatics seem off their rockers to me.
but i wasn't associating they would do such a thing openly.
But when i said the west was just as guilty i had the IRA in mind.
I wasn't clear enough
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,643
128
63
Larnaka
Sorry that did sound like i put them in the same boat.
Basically religious fanatics seem off their rockers to me.
but i wasn't associating they would do such a thing openly.
But when i said the west was just as guilty i had the IRA in mind.
I wasn't clear enough

I definately agree with you on the topic of religious fanatics. They don't make sense.

If you were thinking about the IRA, I wouldn't go that far. The IRA were in the middle of a bloody civil war and while I don't agree with their methods, I would also not put them in the same boat as the Islamic terrorists this thread is dealing with. This is Islam versus any other society or religion; IRA was country versus country.

*Edit: This opens a huge can of worms, but my stand by my main points.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
5,959
66
48
Quebec
hmm yeah i was stuck on just the terrorist part of it.
I think I accidently made decafe today.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
What also struck me about the IRA and "the troubles" in Ireland was the amount of introspection.

You saw the principals in the war wrestle with all the moral dilemnas of how violence is never
pinpoint accurate. Always it inevitably bags the innocent in unforseen, unplanned ways.


From a distance looking outside my comfort bubble I don't see enough of this internal introspection by the principals on both sides of this asynchronous war.

Obviously the moral dilemnas are grappled with by an Iraqi family hating an al Qaeda idiot for blowing up a family member and hating the stupid Americans for being a bull in a china shop.

So you see some forced introspection by the victims. But not by the principals.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Well now your self contradicting.

If no society can be less evolved...

Then that means if we endorse slavery we won't be less evolved. After all, if one culture embraces slavery..and one denounces it, and you claim one can't be more evolved than the other...

Then you are in essence saying slavery is an evolved concept. Sorry, cultures are less evolved. Just as our modern culture is more evolved than our culture a hundred years ago (still in living memory)

My goodness Zzarchov did you by chance attend the George Bush School of Obfuscation and Double Meaning...? :)

You seem to think that "evolution" has something to do with scales of assessment erected by some "high-order" metaphysical agent that has determined what "evolution" of a particular quality should look like....

Let's cut through the crap here shall we?

When the more "highly evolved"...and by these stunning revelations you allude to...that must mean European and Western "cultures"....practice genocide (Fire bombing Tokyo, dropping nuclear weapons, using defoliants and toxins on thousands of acres of land, practice assassination and "regime-change" as "foreign policy, maintaining disproportionate distribution of wealth and thereby creating and maintaining poverty in the midst of great wealth, use sweatshop economics and reduce men women and children to slave labor for marketting giants in the produce and manufacturing sectors of large "highly-evolved" societies and cultures....this demarcation of who's more evolved than the other must then mean that the society most able to secure obtain and loot what it can from the weaker is the metric you're happpier to use.

You'd probably use the Inquisitions or the extermination of millions by various "more highly evolved" societies and cultures like the Spanish and the French or perhaps the reticence on the part of these "highly evolved" cultures and societies to grand civil rights to women or give the right of voting in elections to Jews or any other number of instances I can provide that demonstrate not that these cultures and societies are more "highly evolved", but are rather simply more prepared to use violence and imperial expansionism as vehicle to feed greed and a superiority complex that's satisfied to create injustice in the name of "prosperity"....

You'd rather forget no doubt that human history isn't the "history of evolution" in any meaninful way. The "evolution" that sees homo erectus walking upright with digits freed to practice the fraud of democratic elections has nothing to do with societal "sophistication"....

How would the Nazis of Germany....a political party that fostered and inflicted enormous damage througout the world score on your scale of "evolution"? Would the evolution of the British or the French or the Portugese or the Dutch or any of the cultures and societies that have participated in slavery for generations, practiced war and committed crimes against humanity for decades be indicative of this "high-order" metric of human evolution?

Maybe you'd like to rethink your remarks before you demonstrate how stultified and limited your thinking actually is....
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Hola MikeyDB !!!

Que pasa ?

Both Zzarchov AND YOU make valid points, depending on which side of the glass of spilt milk you are looking at.

Is it either/or here ?

There are more evolved and less evolved societies and cultures, as Zzarchov states.

And you are right that our own "highly evolved western culture" is capable of great mass destruction.

It is very difficult of us to learn a basic lesson, that we are all quite capable of great sin.

You even see that when Canadians compare themselves with USonians (Americans :) ). But you put different people from different cultures in a test situation and they are all capable of making the same errors in judgement.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Hey Handsome Jim how's it goin..:)

The gambit that flipped my gourd was the notion that "evolution" has anything to do with cultural development. Until there's a human being born with an extra digit or greater brain capacity or resistance to critical illnesses like AIDS or Cancer, everything that a society/culture does (or doesn't do) has nothing to do with "evolution".

Culture is the manifestation of artificial constructs within social organizing principles that strive to create and maintain a climate conducive to continued and expanding "well-being". Culture that arises from the tribal social organizing principle is the most common. The most widely dispersed (observed) social condition that has the authority and influence to re-direct social mores and moral "evalutations" is religion. Well religion and politics are neck and neck, but politics is about who gets control of wealth and power and how that wealth and power are used....by them to serve their self-interests ahead of the well-being of the society as a whole.

Cultures that are mired in tribal traditions remain vulnerable to religion and religion since it's always bedded down with politics ...tribes are manipulated to serve the interests of the most powerful..ie. those individuals or loosely defined collectives prepared to rule by force.

Evolution preceeds culture. Evolution (unless we want to discuss "social evolution" as some schools of psychology have...) is what determines why fresh water becomes a political issue....if we evolved to live without water....(an incredible consideration but you see where I'm going I hope) then lakes rivers and inland seas would'nt be the arguing points for governments and societies and cultures.

Because we are biologially bound to our need for water, access to water has resulted in wars and conflict, both over trade routes and transportation but at the tribal level, whichever tribe "owned" an oasis or supply of fresh water could be expected to experience invasion and war...nothing to do with religion or politics but everything to do with the nature of the animal...its evolutionary requirements...

We are organisms that consume. Consumption is the same regardless of where you live on this planet when it comes to obtaining and maintaining a reliable supply of foodstuff for the population....this is the effect of evolution on society and culture, not the other way around....

Petroleum became something that the "evolved" cultures hungered after and were prepared to pay billions upon billions to procure. A people who had to live (tribal and nomadic) from hand to mouth were given the goose that laid the golden egg..... The "thirst" the "hunger" for larger profit magins allowed the "evolved" societies to ignore the injustice and oppression that occurred in these states while sending them billions....

Evolution.....Culture....

Different .....

Sorry if I seemed to bite ZZarchov's head off.....

If we're going to label a starving people as less-evolved because they don't roll over when we with our so much better ideas need their oil or their minerals or their "markets" it's useful to characterize them as less-evolved. it worked for negroes in the United States when it came to "freedom" and it worked in Canada where women weren't considered fully as human as males.....

It's crap and needs to be underscored as such...
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
There had been some trouble in the Western provinces where the Taliban has allies. But there weren't any suicide bombings in the capitol or terrorism in general so far as I recall before now.

BTW, did Muslims invade any Western nations recently and killed one million innocents the way Bush did to Iraq?
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
42
48
SW Ontario

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
``87% of statistics are made up out of thin air.``


Does that figure include the 300,000 Ixil Indians killed by Reagan's financed terrorism in Guatemala?