Genocide???

[#juan]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]None Dare Call It Genocide [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]... Well, it's about time that we think about the numbers, even though the US military has decided that body counts are not worth their time. Opinion Research Business, a highly reputable polling firm in the UK, has just completed a detailed and rigorous survey of Iraqis. In the past, the company's results have been touted by the Bush administration whenever the data looks favorable to the US cause. But their latest report received virtually no attention in the US. Here is the grisly bottom line: more than one million people have been murdered in Iraq since the US invasion, according to the ORB. The total number of dead exceeds the hugely well-publicized Rwandan genocide in 1994 (...) So we are speaking of some 1.2 million people who have been killed in this way, and that does not count the numbers that were killed during the invasion itself for the crime of having attempted to oppose invading foreign troops, or the 500,000 children and old people killed by the US-UN anti-civilian sanctions in the 10 previous years (...) The US has unleashed bloodshed in Iraq that is rarely known even in countries we think of as violent and torn by civil strife. It is amazing to think that this has occurred in what was only recently a liberal and civilized country by the region’s standards. This was a country that had a problem with immigration, particularly among the well-educated and talented classes. They went to Iraq because it was the closest Arab proxy to Western-style society that one could find in! the are a. It was the US that turned this country into a killing field. Why won’t we face this? ...

Comments?
[/FONT]

 

[#juan]

The Rwandan Genocide was the 1994 mass killing of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutu sympathizers in Rwanda and was the largest atrocity during the Rwandan Civil War. This genocide was mostly carried out by two extremist Hutu militia groups, the Interahamwe and the Impuzamugambi, during about 100 days from April 6 through mid-July, 1994. At least 500,000 Tutsis and thousands of moderate Hutus died in the genocide.[1] Some estimates put the death toll between 800,000 and 1,000,000.[2]

I put the question out there again. Since 1.2 million Iraqis have died as a result of the bloody sanctions and the violence of, and because of the invasion, and the overthrow of Saddam, why has no one called that genocide?

 

[hermanntrude]

i don't think your suggestion that the word "genocide" hasn't been used is correct, People have said all sorts of things about Iraq, and i'm sure some of it is true. I'm also sure I'll never know what happened over there because the lies drown everything.

 

[lone wolf]

Odd thing about genocide is they don't call it that when it happens over long periods of time and from various causes. Even though the end result may be the same, the statistics are ... well ... just different.

Wolf

 

[#juan]

The biggest thing was the decade-long sanctions which killed a terrible number of children. People have said that Saddam could have saved a lot of these people if he had done this or that, rather than building palaces, but the fact remains that nutrition and medicines were not available through normal channels and these people died. At the time of the unprovoked invasion, Iraq was a beaten, country who was threatening nobody. Any country other than the U.S. would be brought before the World Criminal Court for less.

 

[Unforgiven]

There isn't really a distinction made there between those killed in action and those killed by an action. Being in a firefight and being in a cellar hoping to escape the bombing in your neighbourhood are vastly different things.

Genocide is a specific targetted group being slaughtered with either malace afore thought or All of an identifiable group in the heat of the moment.

I don't think what is going on in Iraq at the moment is genocide.

A war crime none the less but not genocide.

 

[karrie]

The key difference between genocide and what's happening in Iraq, is that of intent versus consequence. Generally speaking, we only refer to killings as genocide when they were killed intentionally, solely for being a certain race or culture.

The Iraq war is not about trying to eradicate Iraqis. It's not about trying to erase Iraqi culture and/or genetics. That's not the intent. It's the consequence. And thus it's not one and the same.

 

[#juan]

There isn't really a distinction made there between those killed in action and those killed by an action. Being in a firefight and being in a cellar hoping to escape the bombing in your neighbourhood are vastly different things.

Genocide is a specific targetted group being slaughtered with either malace afore thought or All of an identifiable group in the heat of the moment.

I don't think what is going on in Iraq at the moment is genocide.

A war crime none the less but not genocide.

Iraq was invaded by a vastly superior military for no good reason. I don't buy the idea that the reason for the invasion was liberation. Iraq, at the time of the invasion was peopled by at least three different groups who, only Saddam it seems, was able to hold together. The coalition of the damned were warned that the overthrow of Hussein would bring about a civil war....and that is exactly what has happened. That action has brought about the death of a million people and God knows how many Iraqis are refugees. At least three thousand Iraqis die every month from the ensuing violence. I have no trouble calling it genocide.

 

[I think not]

The key difference between genocide and what's happening in Iraq, is that of intent versus consequence. Generally speaking, we only refer to killings as genocide when they were killed intentionally, solely for being a certain race or culture.

The Iraq war is not about trying to eradicate Iraqis. It's not about trying to erase Iraqi culture and/or genetics. That's not the intent. It's the consequence. And thus it's not one and the same.

Just in case some around here are shortsighted. ;-)

Very well put btw.

 

[Unforgiven]

Iraq was invaded by a vastly superior military for no good reason. I don't buy the idea that the reason for the invasion was liberation. Iraq, at the time of the invasion was peopled by at least three different groups who, only Saddam it seems, was able to hold together. The coalition of the damned were warned that the overthrow of Hussein would bring about a civil war....and that is exactly what has happened. That action has brought about the death of a million people and God knows how many Iraqis are refugees. At least three thousand Iraqis die every month from the ensuing violence. I have no trouble calling it genocide.

No argument from me.
You can call it what you like. His old man had a penchant for going into a country and physically removing it's leader and to hell with the body count in Colombia too.

They're ass holes and always have been. But it still doesn't make it genocide. That word is special and though there really isn't much difference to the people killed, it's for history and the lessons those who come along after will learn from these mistakes and perhaps they won't be so willing to allow these ass holes to gain control of the government and the military again.

Maybe there needs to be a word for what this is.

 

[Unforgiven]

Just in case some around here are shortsighted. ;-)

Very well put btw.

That doesn't mean it's not gross negligence and worthy of standing on trial as war crimes and crimes against humanity. Not just for the US and it's coalition in Iraq but the companies there as well such as Black Water.

 

[I think not]

That doesn't mean it's not gross negligence and worthy of standing on trial as war crimes and crimes against humanity. Not just for the US and it's coalition in Iraq but the companies there as well such as Black Water.

Sure, that's your opinion. I'll respect that. All you have to do now is find someone with enough evidence to prosecute, even if it's to make a point. So far, nobody has even tried.

 

[EagleSmack]

The key difference between genocide and what's happening in Iraq, is that of intent versus consequence. Generally speaking, we only refer to killings as genocide when they were killed intentionally, solely for being a certain race or culture.

The Iraq war is not about trying to eradicate Iraqis. It's not about trying to erase Iraqi culture and/or genetics. That's not the intent. It's the consequence. And thus it's not one and the same.

Great Post Karrie... you pretty much put Juan back a few steps tactfully and correctly. We all knew what his intention was and his consistent attempts to stir up anti-US rhetoric are well known.

 

[karrie]

My intention was to discuss with juan, not put him back a few steps. While I understand your glee at a perceived point scored, I don't share it. War is sickening, and I don't blame people one bit for posting articles in outrage at it. We should never sit by and watch people killed without questioning. It's our human responsibility to do so. The fact that people out there are watching with such horror that they are grasping at words such as genocide to attempt to address their outrage should be a red flag for the world community.

Great Post Karrie... you pretty much put Juan back a few steps tactfully and correctly. We all knew what his intention was and his consistent attempts to stir up anti-US rhetoric are well known.

 

[#juan]

The key difference between genocide and what's happening in Iraq, is that of intent versus consequence. Generally speaking, we only refer to killings as genocide when they were killed intentionally, solely for being a certain race or culture.

The Iraq war is not about trying to eradicate Iraqis. It's not about trying to erase Iraqi culture and/or genetics. That's not the intent. It's the consequence. And thus it's not one and the same.

Karrie
You put forward a reasonable argument. We just disagree on the intent. I think the intent was to eradicate Iraq as a strong country or any kind of military factor in the area. That has certainly been done. The result has been well over a million Iraqi deaths and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees. Iraq will never come back to the country it was. The U.S. has built at least four huge, new, permanent military bases in Iraq to ensure that it doesn't. That, to me is genocide.

 

[Unforgiven]

Sure, that's your opinion. I'll respect that. All you have to do now is find someone with enough evidence to prosecute, even if it's to make a point. So far, nobody has even tried.

Be patient it isn't over yet.

But when people start taking it out on Americans and some get a feeling of animosity for America on opinionated message boards, understand that it's because of the people you elect to government and the blase attitude you have when you know they commit war crimes among other things.

Sooner or later a President will come along with the nads to change the laws changed by these thugs you respect and admire so much. Then perhaps an investigation will go ahead and justice will be done.

 

[Unforgiven]

Great Post Karrie... you pretty much put Juan back a few steps tactfully and correctly. We all knew what his intention was and his consistent attempts to stir up anti-US rhetoric are well known.

Ya cheer leader. :withstupid:

 

[EagleSmack]

Ya cheer leader. :withstupid:

Hey... call me what you will but she was right. The icon is fitting as it is pointing at you now.

 

[Tonington]

UN sanctions leading to genocide, never thought about that one before...

 

[EagleSmack]

Karrie
You put forward a reasonable argument. We just disagree on the intent. I think the intent was to eradicate Iraq as a strong country or any kind of military factor in the area. That has certainly been done. The result has been well over a million Iraqi deaths and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi refugees. Iraq will never come back to the country it was. The U.S. has built at least four huge, new, permanent military bases in Iraq to ensure that it doesn't. That, to me is genocide.

Well it doesn't surprise me that you see genocide as that when genocide is...

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

...according to the dictionary. If the US was conducting genocide over there there would be nobody left.