Letter from Father to Son re Immigration U.K.

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...5&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

Dear Son, Let me tell you what immigration has done to this country

Last updated at 00:50am on 17th August 2007

Last year, former Tory minister George Walden wrote a book about the future of life in Britain and why record numbers were emigrating. Taking the form of a letter from a father to his son, it provoked a massive, positive response from readers when it was serialised in the Daily Mail.



In the book, Guy and Catherine despaired at having to bring up their two children in an area that had been dramatically changed by mass immigration, where their children had become a minority in school and teachers struggled to deal with so many pupils who did not speak English.
The country - where 57 per cent of births in the capital are now to mothers who were born abroad - seemed to be failing them on multiple fronts, not just on education but also on security and health care.
Since then, the couple have given up the battle and moved abroad to Canada. And they are not alone in their decision. As Walden pointed out in the first serialisation, a total of 350,000 people left Britain in 2004 - equivalent to a third of the population of Birmingham.
Danger: Fear of antagonising the Muslim community has put the country's security at risk from Islamic terrorists




Walden observes that despite all the changes mass immigration has brought in Britain, there remains a conspiracy of silence that has stifled debate on one of the most important issues of our age.
Now, in this thought-provoking followup, Walden examines Guy and Catherine's new quality of life, using it as a mirror to reflect the dreadful state of Britain today.
Walden, who served as higher education minister in Margaret Thatcher's government, has been married to Sarah for 38 years and they have three grown-up children. The son to whom his letters are addressed is fictional, but the incidents affecting him and his wife are based on fact.


Dear Son,

It's getting on for ten months now since you and Catherine left for a new life in Canada. And we didn't get the impression, when we came to see you, that you've regretted your decision for a moment.
Still, I'd better avoid saying anything excessively encouraging about the state of the nation you've left behind. Not difficult, as it happens.
In fact, it looks as though you got out just in time. Driving close to your old place in West London the other day, I saw a police notice asking for information about a young man who'd brandished a gun at an officer.

The people who bought your house at a ludicrously high price are unlikely to be thrilled. I don't suppose there's another city in the world where people have to pay that kind of money for the privilege of living in an area where hoodlums go round flashing guns.
There is an atmosphere of suppressed - or outright - violence and disorder that makes me worry for the next generation.
Often, it's the little incidents that are telling. Yesterday, your mother was on a bus when three girls aged between 16 and 18 tried to board in Ladbroke Grove. They were Brazilians, she thinks, but so completely anglicised that they'd got themselves roaring - or rather squealing - drunk.
Toting bottles of vodka and plastic cups, they pressed on to the platform, but the Bangladeshi driver stalwartly refused to allow them to board. The bus was held up for 20 minutes while the girls blocked the doors, laughing and screaming obscenities in their newly-acquired Essex accents.
The point is that during all this little drama, not a single one of the weary rush-hour passengers said a word. The great British public held hostage by a trio of sozzled teenage girls!
Toronto sounds safer, though it seems a hell of a way to go for a little peace of mind.
Back from our visit to you, we did a sort of audit of your new life. We loved your old brick house with wooden trimmings in the Riverdale area of Toronto - bigger than your London one and, at £220,000, less than half the cost.
Not to speak of your country place at Muskoka: a simple cottage but with the swimming, boating and fishing on all those lakes, a cut above Ruislip Lido.
And it's good to hear that the children look set to get into the nearest state secondary. A citycentre school with no problem of drugs or knives and one that teaches Latin!
We were relieved that you picked up an academic job so quickly, paying rather more than you got in the UK. With taxes and the cost of living lower, you should feel more relaxed financially.
The very fact that Canada has half our population (30 million) in a land many times bigger is good for the spirit - not to speak of car-parking.
The ethnic population, I see, is higher than here, but then Canada is much more selective. The points system they operate seems pretty rigorous, and it was only your impressive chemistry qualifications, I suspect, that got you in so smartly.
Also, the ethnic pattern is different, with the Chinese the largest element, followed by Indians, and fewer ghettos. As Catherine said, a strong secondary state education system is a key to integration.
Here, the country is not so much disintegrating as disaggregating. The Balkanisation of our lives is happening on a national scale.
Scotland's falling off the top, self-sealing ethnic communities are proliferating in the Midlands, and London's got its own thing going at the bottom.
We boast of our prosperity, but it's fragile and concentrated in the South East - an island within our island. Perhaps we'll have to get used to thinking of London and its environs as a kind of Hong Kong or an Italian city state.
Here, the most obvious disconnection is between the rich and the rest. An old story, but the difference today is that the fate of those at the top is divorced from those lower down.
When the housing ramp collapses, most of the falling masonry will hit the little guys in the middle and at the bottom. The top London prices helped drive up the entire market, but are less likely to fall when it all comes down. There's no feeling that we're all in this together.
The divisions run from earliest youth to grim old age. More boys at Eton get five good GCSEs, I hear, than in the entire borough of Hackney.
And now there's another divide growing up: between those who have a decent pension to look forward to and those for whom longevity has become more a threat than a promise.
Then there's the widening gap between the married and unmarried, or rather those with children and those without.
Large areas of our towns are now such havens of hedonism for the money-flashing singles that they're pretty much out of bounds for the poor bloody infantry who keep procreation going and cannot afford such leisures.
Everything's geared to the needs of the drinker and consumer, and little to the couple with the buggy. On top of all this is the growing disconnection between politics and the people.
And the more fractured we become, the greater our pretence of togetherness to cover it up. That's why the Government bangs on about 'community' and has tried so hard to ignore the problems caused by immigration.
Imagine my astonishment when the Minister responsible, Liam Byrne, actually admitted recently that large-scale immigration has profoundly unsettled the country - and that it's the poorest communities that have suffered the most. The influx was overwhelming public services, schools, the NHS and housing, he said.
If Labour failed to address public concern, he concluded, it could lose the next election.
I couldn't have put what Byrne was plucky enough to say better myself. But what is extraordinary is the lack of reaction to his words. Where are the columns and editorials and BBC programmes saying that the Government has gone racist?
On the principle that a sinner who repenteth deserves the greatest praise, Byrne is something of a saint. He'll certainly have the majority of immigrants on his side.
According to a speech by the former chairman of the race relations commission, Trevor Phillips, 54 per cent of them think there's been enough immigration.
Hardly surprising, since they and their children are among those who stand to suffer most from overcrowding, poor schooling, racial tensions and discrimination.
To complete this outburst of honesty, Byrne should have acknowledged that it's the rich who stand to gain from the profits of low-paid labour. But it would have raised the cry: "So why in God's name have you done it - and why are you letting more in?"
The evidence that the whole country benefits has shrunk to vanishing point.
The Governor of the Bank of England recently told MPs it was getting increasingly hard to manage the economy without knowing how many people were in the country. But everyone seems to have missed the implications of this: if the Bank doesn't know the true population, neither can the Treasury.
And now local councils are up in arms, saying the Office of National Statistics (ONS) does not have a clue about the number of people - for whom local services are required - who are entering the country.
How can anyone assess the profit and cost of migration, and claim that the balance is positive, if nobody knows the figures?
Meanwhile, the Government continues to pour billions into the NHS. That's supposed to be another success story, but nobody can really explain where all the money's going, let alone why it's so hard to keep our hospitals clean.
Let me tell you what happened to me recently. As you know, for years I've suffered from that irritating condition Dupuytren's contracture (named after a Frenchman) - or claw-hand in its less distinguished appellation, because the fingers contract until they look like one.
There's no pain - it's just a bloody nuisance, not least because after you've had an operation for one finger, the next one starts to contract.
I've had two fingers treated, one on the NHS and the other private - because I didn't fancy going into hospital for a minor operation, catching MRSA and coming out dead, as thousands are now doing.
Anyway, another damned finger began curling last year, so I went to my NHS doctor and - after a wait - saw a consultant who told me to come back in six months to see how it was progressing.
Meanwhile, I read that the French had developed a cure. So thanks to them and none at all to the NHS, 30 years of aggravation was fixed while we were in Paris in a single afternoon by injection, for the sum of about £60 - with no pain, no anaesthetic, no hospital operation and no maddening sling.
It's a strange society we're building. You can't avoid the conclusion that the way to avoid all the inequities and social fractiousness is simple: be rich.
Then you can flash those beneath you a benign, ingratiating smile - and have as little as possible to do with them.
There's a new brand of social selfishness about, a kind of "Sod you Jack, I'm all right" attitude.
For those doing well out of New Britain PLC, I don't see how things can change. The problem is that for those lower down - the middleclass majority - I don't see how they can change either.
I can't report much joy on the security front, though: the mood is still one of evasion.
In the case of Islamic terrorism, we're so afraid of antagonising the Muslim community that we turn our anger on our defenders rather than the killers. If the security services slip up - as occasionally they're bound to - they're branded as criminally incompetent on Newsnight.
The most likely reason is that they're overwhelmed. Yet if MI5 were expanded as much as it should be, its operations beefed up and surveillance increased, watch out for Newsnight programmes proclaiming the beginning of the end of our human rights and warning that picking on Muslims will alienate the community further.
It's all part of our loss of any sense of balance. We may not go in for revolutions, but Britain has become a society of extremes.
Look at public policies. It's lunacy to go on promising free medical treatment for all- comers, but we do. It's against every tenet of common sense to have mixed-ability classes, but in the delirium of our classconsciousness, we persist.
Doing away with most of our manufacturing base is reckless economic behaviour, but the moderate British have done that, too. The income gap, house prices and mass immigration - they're all examples of national excess.
Wherever you look, crazy systems have replaced our old prudent-minded approach.
Look at families. Instead of beginning with the self-evident proposition that two parents are better than one, we start at the other end.
The result is that we insist on individual rights to the exclusion of everyone else's interests, including the child's. As a result, we have more single parents, more teenage pregnancies, more adolescent misfits and more destitute families than anyone in Europe.
Not bad for the country of balance and moderation.
Meanwhile, debt is at a dangerous high and millions of us are living beyond our means. Actually, the more I look at the economic outlook, the wiser your decision to take a break from Britain begins to seem.
Everything seems to be unreal - whether it's the bonuses in the City, the purchasing power of the pound on shopping trips to America, or the money you sold your house for before emigrating.
If the economy falters - and the signs are beginning to show - the social consequences of unemployment don't bear thinking about. And, this time, people who are laid off won't be able to retire early because Gordon Brown has blocked that avenue of escape by b*****ing up their pensions.
Even now, with the economy still riding high, a record number of people are leaving the country to start again elsewhere. Think what will happen to emigration figures if the economic bubble is pricked.
Whether it is or not, we can certainly expect the splits and cracks in society to grow. Which leaves people your age with three choices: resign themselves to a life in a perilously fragmented community, get rich or do as you have done and get out.
Politics or parenting, schools or Scotland, wherever you look, very little seems to be holding things together. People live side by side yet separately, in mental isolation, with their eyes fixed warily on one another.
When communities, races, classes and families become segregated to the degree they have, feelings of social solidarity erode.
Society ends up like a shattered windscreen: holding together by the grace of God, even though it's all cracked to hell, so no one can see ahead or have any idea where they are going.
Love to all, Dad
Adapted from Time to Emigrate? Letters From A Father by George Walden, published by Gibson Square, £6.99. To order a copy (p&p free), call
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
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Minority -

Are you in favor of selective editing ?
Are you refering to me editing my post .
At first I wrote a white right wing conservatives rant about nothing .meaning the letter , but I didn't want anyone to think I was talkinig about you so I edited it to it's present form . I Do my best to make sure my ideas and statements can only be interpreted one way.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Are you refering to me editing my post .
At first I wrote a white right wing conservatives rant about nothing .meaning the letter , but I didn't want anyone to think I was talkinig about you so I edited it to it's present form . I Do my best to make sure my ideas and statements can only be interpreted one way.

Minority - Perhaps you misread my own post - that you criticized the letter viewing it as a political statement rather than what I feel is difficult but necessary economics. That only
articles promoting a left wing ideology should be presented or else 'editing' should be done.

I meant that regardless of the content I thought the letter would be of interest to Canadians - that of a father experiencing life in the U.K. as compared with Canada.

Whether the man is right or left or in the middle - politics wasn't what I found interesting but the fact of immigration impact upon that very small nation.

How much can the U.K. withstand before the original people feel they should vacate and leave behind their traditional ways of life in deference to newcomers....it is a question all thoughts should be directed towards - consideration of all.

I do not like immigration to be politicized - that would negate the whole concept of an open accepting nation and one which exerts balance in deference to the current citizens and the financial affairs of the nation as it is at present.

Yet the minute 'balance' is mentioned, politics is brought into the picture - when it should be a matter of economics.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Newfoundland!
I think this fellow is comparing the best of Canada with the worst of the UK. Without a doubt, Canada is a better place than the UK but it's not without its drawbacks.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Minority - Perhaps you misread my own post - that you criticized the letter viewing it as a political statement rather than what I feel is difficult but necessary economics. That only
articles promoting a left wing ideology should be presented or else 'editing' should be done.

I meant that regardless of the content I thought the letter would be of interest to Canadians - that of a father experiencing life in the U.K. as compared with Canada.

Whether the man is right or left or in the middle - politics wasn't what I found interesting but the fact of immigration impact upon that very small nation.

How much can the U.K. withstand before the original people feel they should vacate and leave behind their traditional ways of life in deference to newcomers....it is a question all thoughts should be directed towards - consideration of all.

I do not like immigration to be politicized - that would negate the whole concept of an open accepting nation and one which exerts balance in deference to the current citizens and the financial affairs of the nation as it is at present.

Yet the minute 'balance' is mentioned, politics is brought into the picture - when it should be a matter of economics.

The UK has experience enormous rushes of immigration before, and the people always had some trouble with it, but eventually got used to it. I think this wave too will die down and those who complained the loudest will quickly become very quiet indeed. The main problem in the UK isn't exactly immigration but overpopulation. Even if immigrations stopped entirely, the place would still be too crowded. Overpopulation is the cause of so much social trouble. That was the main reason I wanted to the leave the UK, even before I met my wife.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
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Minority - Perhaps you misread my own post - that you criticized the letter viewing it as a political statement rather than what I feel is difficult but necessary economics. That only
articles promoting a left wing ideology should be presented or else 'editing' should be done.

I meant that regardless of the content I thought the letter would be of interest to Canadians - that of a father experiencing life in the U.K. as compared with Canada.

Whether the man is right or left or in the middle - politics wasn't what I found interesting but the fact of immigration impact upon that very small nation.

How much can the U.K. withstand before the original people feel they should vacate and leave behind their traditional ways of life in deference to newcomers....it is a question all thoughts should be directed towards - consideration of all.

I do not like immigration to be politicized - that would negate the whole concept of an open accepting nation and one which exerts balance in deference to the current citizens and the financial affairs of the nation as it is at present.

Yet the minute 'balance' is mentioned, politics is brought into the picture - when it should be a matter of economics.
I guess that is where we disagree. Issues like Immigration , integration cannot be discussed without making it political . You speak of economics but with your statement your making the assumption that immigrants are a economic burden which is an unfair whole sale generalisation ignoring the fact that Canada is a case study for the economic boon that is immigration .
That is my main issue of beef with this letter it's ethnocentric and the biaias is pretty obvious .
He makes the same generalization that you do implying that immigrants are an economic burden , he makes the implication that they are criminals , and that they shouldn't be coming to his country in the first place .
In summary he's ignoring the truth , the hipocracy of his assumptions (It's wrong for brown Brazilian girls to come to england but it's perfectly fine for his white son to come to my country and settle in my home town , he even makes a point about how Canada is less ethnic if that is not racist i don't know what is ), and history to make a point for the economic burden of immigration which is in turn based on his preexisting bias against people that don't look like him .
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
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Great article, Curio! Obviously, immigration is a major issue in Britain and the rest of Europe. It's different today. The bulk of it is coming from non-European countries and cultures and if present immigration numbers persist, of course, your society will change. Integration is not the mantra anymore. Tolerance, accommodation and multiculturalism are. It is these last three that make the current wave unique, different and will impact the future.
People in Europe and North America have the right to know what their futures will be like if present trends and policies remain in place.
There are those who will play the race card. Whoopee! The bias and intolerance argument. Yawn!
We're entitled to know what our futures might be like given they are being shaped by forces unlike any that have molded us before.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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I guess that is where we disagree. Issues like Immigration , integration cannot be discussed without making it political . You speak of economics but with your statement your making the assumption that immigrants are a economic burden which is an unfair whole sale generalisation ignoring the fact that Canada is a case study for the economic boon that is immigration .
That is my main issue of beef with this letter it's ethnocentric and the biaias is pretty obvious .
He makes the same generalization that you do implying that immigrants are an economic burden , he makes the implication that they are criminals , and that they shouldn't be coming to his country in the first place .
In summary he's ignoring the truth , the hipocracy of his assumptions (It's wrong for brown Brazilian girls to come to england but it's perfectly fine for his white son to come to my country and settle in my home town , he even makes a point about how Canada is less ethnic if that is not racist i don't know what is ), and history to make a point for the economic burden of immigration which is in turn based on his preexisting bias against people that don't look like him .

Minority - again I think you are guessing at what I am writing rather than being blindsided by your own opinions.

Immigration - when controlled - to ensure that population increase is sane, that immigrants will supply the needed labor resources and intellectual progress of any nation - has in the past proven immigration is a great way to grow a nation. Because this particular man speaks about different races or ancestries - you immediately assume he is biased. Immigration flood can affect the economics of a nation - and hold it hostage until settlements and 'balance' is worked out - unless immigration is committed to in a sane way.... and all applications should have an equal opportunity - but the opportunities should rest with the nation which needs people for certain economic necessities.

Perhaps you have forgotten the bombing of the London subway - those who did the deeds were born in the U.K. I believe of families who emigrated there but the new immigrants have taken over these young people, offered them a new lifestyle of terrorism and are now wreaking havoc on that nation.

If you can put aside your own bias of seeing 'racism' in economic argument - perhaps you could see through the wall you have constructed. Putting people down for having legitimate argument isn't going to solve anything - in fact it will create more problems.

I live in California - there is nothing you can preach to me about the impact of racism - and I am also an immigrant.

Again your 'selective editing' refuses this man to speak his opinion - even if he is a sworn racist in your mind. Ergo you are no better on the humanitarian scale than the one you demean.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Great article, Curio! Obviously, immigration is a major issue in Britain and the rest of Europe. It's different today. The bulk of it is coming from non-European countries and cultures and if present immigration numbers persist, of course, your society will change. Integration is not the mantra anymore. Tolerance, accommodation and multiculturalism are. It is these last three that make the current wave unique, different and will impact the future.
People in Europe and North America have the right to know what their futures will be like if present trends and policies remain in place.
There are those who will play the race card. Whoopee! The bias and intolerance argument. Yawn!
We're entitled to know what our futures might be like given they are being shaped by forces unlike any that have molded us before.

Tamarin - the people in the western nations - the two huge democracies - have been throttled by so much of this word 'race' it has become the catchall for every beef people have these days when immigration is discussed. Immigration is a matter which must be discussed by the people of the nations affected, because it will take at least two generations for assimilation and during that time the population who are native to the nations will have to take on the extra burdens until the people find their way. Even the brightest of them - the Asians in California - many stick with their own even when they soar above all other races in intellect, professional capabilities and making fantastic things happen for their adopted land.

The world is becoming smaller - we must learn to accept what is there 'when we arrive' into a new way of life - until we can find something better to introduce for people to accept or reject. That is what democracy is all about.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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In breif, the UK should reduce the numbers of immigrants, not because immigrants are bad, but because the UK is struggling to handle the numbers, and is massively overcrowded anyway.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Socialism is a beautiful way to try to operate a nation and I have to credit the U.K. for continuing
to operate - even when the purse is emptying rapidly...

The only comment I can add is that Socialism must have its share of Capitalists as well - and immigration must be carefully monitored so those entering will not drain the nation even farther down in its ability to support the existing and predicted birthrate growth.

To continue to admit people - who when out of work and money are inclined to turn to law breaking - is not a good experiment in humanitariansm or socialism. Socialism exists beautifully when all support all - depending upon the need and personal abilities. It cannot succeed any other way.

But it is so 'cool' for some to categorize good planning for future responsible growth - as racist.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
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I didn't read the whole article. It was quite long. I found a bit of a disconnect, at one point they are complaining about immigration then later they complain about drinking? Is it the immigrants drinking? I'm glad to here Canada's point system is a good system. Apparently though Canada still does have some illegal immigration.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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The author surely does seem to be connecting immigration with bad behaviour. If he lived in another part of the UK he'd see little white english girls doing the exact same thing. I've seen it myself.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
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Canada is a better place than the UK
Not in every aspect. The crime rate, I think, in Canada is higher than in the UK (and the US).

It's got a higher rate of gun ownership than the UK and therefore more gun crime.

The weather in Britain is much warmer in winter than it is in freezing Canada.

And Canada has a higher suicide rate than the UK.

And, despite what the author of that letter wrote, Britain has LOWER taxes, much lower, than Canada. Avergae tax rates in Canada are a whopping 39% whereas in Britain they are just 21.7%. Even France, renowned for high taxes, has average tax rates of 33%.

Canadians must pay 25% of their income in taxes, whereas the British pay 24%.

Average tax rates are considerably lower for single parents with two children than for single individuals without children. In 2004, having two young children reduced the average tax rate of a single parent by 19 percentage points in the United Kingdom but by just 11 percentage points in Canada.

Average tax rates on employment income (single parent with 2 children and an income of $40,000) is 14% in Canada (Canada is more in line with many socialist Continental European countries). In other English-speaking countries it is just 10% in the US, 5% in the UK and 3% in the Republic of Ireland.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
368
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The author surely does seem to be connecting immigration with bad behaviour.
That is exactly my point . There is no issue in the world that I would refuse to have a rational discussion with anyone about , but a discussion cannot proceed if people will base their arguments on irrational generalization . Curiosity Uses the London bombers as a case study , but there are millions of Muslim immigrants in the US who are not going around bombing buses . It seems in the right wing press that whenever any member of an immigrant population does wrong the entire population is demonized and the immigration "problem" is revisited . Curiosity if the basic premise that the man is making his argument on is racist than what he has to say is not very important because he's a hypocrite . Is Immigration Economically useful ? Yes . Is unchecked and uncontrolled immigration a possible destabilizing factor ? Yes . We live in a free society and you have the right to discuss what you want just please do not bring forward and argument based on racist assumptions and then get annoyed at me for mentioning it .
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Canada is a better place than the UK
Not in every aspect. The crime rate, I think, in Canada is higher than in the UK (and the US).

It's got a higher rate of gun ownership than the UK and therefore more gun crime.

The weather in Britain is much warmer in winter than it is in freezing Canada.

And Canada has a higher suicide rate than the UK.

And, despite what the author of that letter wrote, Britain has LOWER taxes, much lower, than Canada. Avergae tax rates in Canada are a whopping 39% whereas in Britain they are just 21.7%. Even France, renowned for high taxes, has average tax rates of 33%.

Canadians must pay 25% of their income in taxes, whereas the British pay 24%.

Average tax rates are considerably lower for single parents with two children than for single individuals without children. In 2004, having two young children reduced the average tax rate of a single parent by 19 percentage points in the United Kingdom but by just 11 percentage points in Canada.

Average tax rates on employment income (single parent with 2 children and an income of $40,000) is 14% in Canada (Canada is more in line with many socialist Continental European countries). In other English-speaking countries it is just 10% in the US, 5% in the UK and 3% in the Republic of Ireland.

I did go on to qualify my statement by pointing out that there are drawbacks to Canada. Thanks for making them explicit, though.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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It's funny that they would see Toronto as an escape from bad immigration policies when all Canadians do is bitch about what immigration has done to the city.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
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Calgary
We live in a free society and you have the right to discuss what you want just please do not bring forward and argument based on racist assumptions and then get annoyed at me for mentioning it .


If you accuse people of racism or try to dismiss it as a political ideology, you are sabotaging any attempt at rational discussion.