U. S. choppers kill... who? Enemy or innocents?

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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By Hannah Allam and Jenan Hussein | McClatchy Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq — This much is agreed upon: at least six Iraqis died overnight Saturday when American attack helicopters pounded a cluster of homes in a dusty, nondescript neighborhood on the northern outskirts of Baghdad.
But the story of why those homes were targeted and who was killed depends on the storyteller.

The U.S. military said the dead were insurgents and the homes in the Husseiniya district probably served as weapons depots; troops observed seven or more secondary explosions after the air assault. By the military's tally, six fighters were killed and five wounded.

Iraqi residents told a different version: the dead came from two Shiite Muslim families who lived in an area controlled by the powerful Mahdi Army militia. The bodies pulled from the rubble, locals say, were ordinary parents killed with their children in the middle of the night. Locals counted 11 corpses - two men, two women, and seven children. Another 10 were injured. Some Iraqi authorities put the death toll as high as 18.

In Iraq, where new bombings occur before authorities can even investigate the previous day's violence, the truth about Husseiniya might never come to light. Roadblocks erected around the neighborhood prevented reporters from reaching the scene.

"Lies, lies, lies," sputtered Salam al Rubaiye, 35, a computer technician who lives in Husseiniya and works in Sadr City. "The Americans always try to change the truth, especially when it concerns the Sadrists," the collective name for followers of the Mahdi Army commander, cleric Muqtada al Sadr.
Rubaiye visited the scene of the air strike twice Saturday. He first showed up early in the morning when, he said, volunteers were still digging the corpses of women and children from the rubble. Later, he brought a camera and snapped 14 photos.

They showed several piles of cinderblock where homes once stood. The interior of a severely damaged home showed only the detritus of family life: a potted plant, a wall hanging, a refrigerator, an electrical generator. "For Sale" was written in Arabic on the only surviving wall of one home.
Rubaiye also e-mailed two short cell-phone video clips that showed at least seven bodies swathed in blankets, some with grayish feet sticking out at the ends. Two of the bundles were tiny, as if they shrouded young children.
Residents said they'd finished retrieving the dead by 8 a.m., and that two young girls were still missing.

"I took out with my own hands the bodies of two young children, two men, two adult women and four little girls," said Bassem al Musawi, 30, who lives in the neighborhood. "I don't know why the Americans bombed these homes. I know one was the house of Abu Mustafa. He's a very poor man with only one boy and the rest of his family are girls. And he didn't even have a rifle."

In an e-mail response to questions on the incident, an American military spokesman wrote that U.S. troops had come under small-arms fire from gunmen in the area just before midnight. The troops "returned fire and attack helicopters, armed with missiles, engaged the structure the gunmen were firing from."

When three of the gunmen fled into another building, the military statement continued, "attack aircraft dropped a bomb on that structure and observed at least seven secondary explosions, likely caused by explosives and munitions stored inside the building." Iraqi police who inspected the site reported to the Americans that the home was destroyed, six insurgents were killed and five wounded.
Presented with the dueling accounts, both sides modified their versions.

Iraqi residents acknowledged hearing gunfire before the air strikes. And the U.S. military no longer insisted that only militants perished, though a spokesman emphasized that the air raid was a self-defense measure.

"The adversary is ruthless and puts no value on human life and will endanger innocent civilians - women, children - by hiding and cowering in buildings they take over," read a statement from Lt. Col. Michael Donnelly, spokesman for U.S. forces north of Baghdad.
Burials were planned, though it was unclear who had custody of the bodies. By late Saturday, there were plans for a large Mahdi Army demonstration to accompany the expected funeral procession.

"They say they target the terrorists, so where are they?" asked a 45-year-old Husseiniya resident who identified himself only as Abu Ghufran. "Most of the dead are women and children. There is no justice in this life."

Hussein is a special correspondent for McClatchy Newspapers. Special correspondent, Laith Hammoudi, contributed.
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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By Hannah Allam and Jenan Hussein | McClatchy Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq — This much is agreed upon: at least six Iraqis died overnight Saturday when American attack helicopters pounded a cluster of homes in a dusty, nondescript neighborhood on the northern outskirts of Baghdad.
But the story of why those homes were targeted and who was killed depends on the storyteller.

The U.S. military said the dead were insurgents and the homes in the Husseiniya district probably served as weapons depots; troops observed seven or more secondary explosions after the air assault. By the military's tally, six fighters were killed and five wounded.

Iraqi residents told a different version: the dead came from two Shiite Muslim families who lived in an area controlled by the powerful Mahdi Army militia. The bodies pulled from the rubble, locals say, were ordinary parents killed with their children in the middle of the night. Locals counted 11 corpses - two men, two women, and seven children. Another 10 were injured. Some Iraqi authorities put the death toll as high as 18.

In Iraq, where new bombings occur before authorities can even investigate the previous day's violence, the truth about Husseiniya might never come to light. Roadblocks erected around the neighborhood prevented reporters from reaching the scene.

"Lies, lies, lies," sputtered Salam al Rubaiye, 35, a computer technician who lives in Husseiniya and works in Sadr City. "The Americans always try to change the truth, especially when it concerns the Sadrists," the collective name for followers of the Mahdi Army commander, cleric Muqtada al Sadr.
Rubaiye visited the scene of the air strike twice Saturday. He first showed up early in the morning when, he said, volunteers were still digging the corpses of women and children from the rubble. Later, he brought a camera and snapped 14 photos.

They showed several piles of cinderblock where homes once stood. The interior of a severely damaged home showed only the detritus of family life: a potted plant, a wall hanging, a refrigerator, an electrical generator. "For Sale" was written in Arabic on the only surviving wall of one home.
Rubaiye also e-mailed two short cell-phone video clips that showed at least seven bodies swathed in blankets, some with grayish feet sticking out at the ends. Two of the bundles were tiny, as if they shrouded young children.
Residents said they'd finished retrieving the dead by 8 a.m., and that two young girls were still missing.

"I took out with my own hands the bodies of two young children, two men, two adult women and four little girls," said Bassem al Musawi, 30, who lives in the neighborhood. "I don't know why the Americans bombed these homes. I know one was the house of Abu Mustafa. He's a very poor man with only one boy and the rest of his family are girls. And he didn't even have a rifle."

In an e-mail response to questions on the incident, an American military spokesman wrote that U.S. troops had come under small-arms fire from gunmen in the area just before midnight. The troops "returned fire and attack helicopters, armed with missiles, engaged the structure the gunmen were firing from."

When three of the gunmen fled into another building, the military statement continued, "attack aircraft dropped a bomb on that structure and observed at least seven secondary explosions, likely caused by explosives and munitions stored inside the building." Iraqi police who inspected the site reported to the Americans that the home was destroyed, six insurgents were killed and five wounded.
Presented with the dueling accounts, both sides modified their versions.

Iraqi residents acknowledged hearing gunfire before the air strikes. And the U.S. military no longer insisted that only militants perished, though a spokesman emphasized that the air raid was a self-defense measure.

"The adversary is ruthless and puts no value on human life and will endanger innocent civilians - women, children - by hiding and cowering in buildings they take over," read a statement from Lt. Col. Michael Donnelly, spokesman for U.S. forces north of Baghdad.
Burials were planned, though it was unclear who had custody of the bodies. By late Saturday, there were plans for a large Mahdi Army demonstration to accompany the expected funeral procession.

"They say they target the terrorists, so where are they?" asked a 45-year-old Husseiniya resident who identified himself only as Abu Ghufran. "Most of the dead are women and children. There is no justice in this life."

Hussein is a special correspondent for McClatchy Newspapers. Special correspondent, Laith Hammoudi, contributed.


By Hannah Allam and Jenan Hussein | McClatchy Newspapers

Well there is your unbiased source... Allam and Hussein.

I love McClatchy News! :lol:
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Well, they admit only once in small letters that the Iraqi neighbours do acknowledge that people were firing from the homes.

Then spend paragraphs before it implying there was no reason for America to attack the homes. The goal being to hope people can't stomach reading anymore, but they admit

"Oh, well technically Insurgents were firing from the homes, and they are the ones responsible for any civilian casualties according to the rules of war...technically the USA is blameless" (I may paraphrase a bit, but that is exactly what they state)
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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Well, they admit only once in small letters that the Iraqi neighbours do acknowledge that people were firing from the homes.

Then spend paragraphs before it implying there was no reason for America to attack the homes. The goal being to hope people can't stomach reading anymore, but they admit

"Oh, well technically Insurgents were firing from the homes, and they are the ones responsible for any civilian casualties according to the rules of war...technically the USA is blameless" (I may paraphrase a bit, but that is exactly what they state)

Yo....US choppers shot (from a safe distance, of course) into a cluster of homes they `believed` housed a handful of Iraqis defending their country.

In the end it turned out, once again, to be no more than famlies....middle-aged and elder men and women as well as children.

I`m sure 5 or 10 gun-shots being fired off in Iraq, at any given time and for whatever reason,(in a now lawless society thanks to the Americans), be it a celebration or just teen-aged kids enjoying themselves, the thought should first dawn on those over there bringing democracy, that it might be prudent to pinch themselves before reacting in the manner they do.

This gung-ho bunch of idiots Bush&CO. has deployed over there are nothing more than bored and brainwashed "soldiers"...... "fighting for a noble cause" and given orders by higher-ups to kill any living thing ....on a whim. Don`t worry about it boys.....the media back home will dish out any justice deserved.

Ahhh 9/11....just what America and its ego needed.

And the`good guys` are taking advantage of this killing spree to its fullest extent. Can you imagine the number of killings of innocents we do not hear about?
No wonder their coming back with as many mental problems as they are.

America has presently gained nothing but guilt and shame.

And the worst is yet to come.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
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Time for the U.S. to pull out and for you(jb) to go in. I am all for letting these barbarians and you and your ilk set up a society. But we will keep an eye on you,and if your type decide to move outside your borders ever again. Well,too bad,time for more shock and awe.A lot more shock and awe,the worst is yet to come.If the nation of islam wants to live in the seventh century,there is a lot of decent people that are willing to send you murderous bastards back there.
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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Time for the U.S. to pull out and for you(jb) to go in. I am all for letting these barbarians and you and your ilk set up a society. But we will keep an eye on you,and if your type decide to move outside your borders ever again. Well,too bad,time for more shock and awe.A lot more shock and awe,the worst is yet to come.If the nation of islam wants to live in the seventh century,there is a lot of decent people that are willing to send you murderous bastards back there.

`We` are your neighbors Wally.....carefull.:smile:
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
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Is that a threat??? Are you implying that if I am not more tolerant and accepting of you murderous bastards that I am at risk?? The religion of peace at it's finest,accept us or we will kill you.You may live close by,but you will never be my neighbour.
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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Is that a threat??? Are you implying that if I am not more tolerant and accepting of you murderous bastards that I am at risk?? The religion of peace at it's finest,accept us or we will kill you.You may live close by,but you will never be my neighbour.

A `threat`?

Wally, I`m merely extending my hand in hopes you realise you cannot win` this fabled idea of controlling other cultures with your ideals. Like the neo-cons are a dying breed, you to shall pass.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Wait a minute? So your logic is, Iraqi's are retarded?

Your implying they don't understand shooting at people and trying to kill them makes them shoot back, and that if you are standing near a human shield, they aren't gonna die for your hostages.

You imply that perhaps it was just celebration. Ok, in peacetime, fair enough. That would be a normal arab tradition, guns as cheap fireworks. They do that in North America as a 21 gun salute too.

IN PEACE TIME.

Iraqi's are not retarded JBeee, they aren't some subhuman child like intellect you need you to chaperone them.

They are more than smart enough to know you don't fire guns for no reason in a place thats been a warzone for many years now. I also bet they lock their doors and keep food and water stockpiled.

Repeat with me, Iraqi's are just as smart as you or I, they are not retarded.
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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Wait a minute? So your logic is, Iraqi's are retarded?

Your implying they don't understand shooting at people and trying to kill them makes them shoot back, and that if you are standing near a human shield, they aren't gonna die for your hostages.

You imply that perhaps it was just celebration. Ok, in peacetime, fair enough. That would be a normal arab tradition, guns as cheap fireworks. They do that in North America as a 21 gun salute too.

IN PEACE TIME.

Iraqi's are not retarded JBeee, they aren't some subhuman child like intellect you need you to chaperone them.

They are more than smart enough to know you don't fire guns for no reason in a place thats been a warzone for many years now. I also bet they lock their doors and keep food and water stockpiled.

Repeat with me, Iraqi's are just as smart as you or I, they are not retarded.

Which begs the question....why are we there in the first place??
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Thats not the point of this article though. This article is implying this was some sort of intentional targeting of civilians.

when in reality it was people firing on them, using civilians as human shields.
 

JBeee

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Jun 1, 2007
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Thats not the point of this article though. This article is implying this was some sort of intentional targeting of civilians.

when in reality it was people firing on them, using civilians as human shields.


Not `intential` targeting but more or less, indiscrimate targeting.

More to the effect , drop or shoot a load into the area and see who comes out alive, sort of way. Friend or foe....it makes no difference to the `good guys` doing the shooting.

Sad really.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
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A `threat`?

Wally, I`m merely extending my hand in hopes you realise you cannot win` this fabled idea of controlling other cultures with your ideals. Like the neo-cons are a dying breed, you to shall pass.
Yeah right,you are a condescending twit,who believes that the US. is the evil empire because that is what your "peer" group are spewing. All the while you support as culture , a group of men who keep 9 year old boys for pleasure and treat thier women as serfs. They keep most men as serfs also,denying them basic rights so they can control thier ideas. You are a buffoon,a useful idiot and if you ever become a man you will realize it. You are not morally superior than our troops or the american troops,but you are intellectually inferior. Go watch a stoning or a beheading of homosexuals or adulterers and then rethink your morally superior position.If things could not be changed we would ALL be still living in caves like your "buddies".
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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Yeah right,you are a condescending twit,who believes that the US. is the evil empire because that is what your "peer" group are spewing. All the while you support as culture , a group of men who keep 9 year old boys for pleasure and treat thier women as serfs. They keep most men as serfs also,denying them basic rights so they can control thier ideas. You are a buffoon,a useful idiot and if you ever become a man you will realize it. You are not morally superior than our troops or the american troops,but you are intellectually inferior. Go watch a stoning or a beheading of homosexuals or adulterers and then rethink your morally superior position.If things could not be changed we would ALL be still living in caves like your "buddies".

Sheesh you have a vivid imagination.:lol:
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
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not in Kansas anymore
Better yet,why doesn't the UN pass a law banning all firearms in Iraq? That way there would be no civilian casualties,we would all live happily ever after. And if we(Harper,neo-cons and myself) supported the fairy tale idea right here at home,in Ontario,I could let my pre-teen children party with gang-bangers at 1 a.m. and not worry about thier safety.Damn guns,damn Harper,damn common sense.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Not `intential` targeting but more or less, indiscrimate targeting.

More to the effect , drop or shoot a load into the area and see who comes out alive, sort of way. Friend or foe....it makes no difference to the `good guys` doing the shooting.

Sad really.


Not at all, thats the rules of war. The victims of human shield campaigns such as this one are the responsibility of those hiding amonst them. Thats why this bombing isn't a war crime. Otherwise it would only further endanger civilians by making hostages the only viable military tactic.

Mourn those fallen, but keep in mind the true perpetrators are those who ignore the rules of war and start an engagement with people as human shields. The fact that you feel the invader is wrong to invade (and perhaps he is) does not mean you can try to win at all cost without being put on war crimes.

The rules are clear, don't find near civilians. If you start fighting near civilians, or place weapons near civilian targets, you are to blame.

It is not the enemies responsibility to build expensive smart weapons to protect your civilians, it is your responsibility to not fight near your own civilians and put them at risk.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
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By Hannah Allam and Jenan Hussein | McClatchy Newspapers

Well there is your unbiased source... Allam and Hussein.

I love McClatchy News! :lol:


What is going on in iraq, i would certainly not rely on us and mass media, that is just a sad fact, you better listen to a crappy usa b serie movie than their news, it is the same anyway.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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well, seeing as how you haven't been to Iraq, you have no idea if one media source is better than the other. You are still having to take someone elses word for it.