`A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi...

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
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12 July 2007 04:54


... You know, so what?'

Interviews with US veterans show for the first time the pattern of brutality in Iraq

By Leonard Doyle in Washington

Published: 12 July 2007



It is an axiom of American political life that the actions of the US military are beyond criticism. Democrats and Republicans praise the men and women in uniform at every turn. Apart from the odd bad apple at Abu Ghraib, the US military in Iraq is deemed to be doing a heroic job under trying circumstances.

That perception will take a severe knock today with the publication in The Nation magazine of a series of in-depth interviews with 50 combat veterans of the Iraq war from across the US. In the interviews, veterans have described acts of violence in which US forces have abused or killed Iraqi men, women and children with impunity.
The report steers clear of widely reported atrocities, such as the massacre in Haditha in 2005, but instead unearths a pattern of human rights abuses. "It's not individual atrocity," Specialist Garett Reppenhagen, a sniper from the 263rd Armour Battalion, said. "It's the fact that the entire war is an atrocity."

A number of the troops have returned home bearing mental and physical scars from fighting a war in an environment in which the insurgents are supported by the population. Many of those interviewed have come to oppose the US military presence in Iraq, joining the groundswell of public opinion across the US that views the war as futile.

This view is echoed in Washington, where increasing numbers of Democrats and Republicans are openly calling for an early withdrawal from Iraq. And the Iraq quagmire has pushed President George Bush's poll ratings to an all-time low.
Journalists and human rights groups have published numerous reports drawing attention to the killing of Iraqi civilians by US forces. The Nation's investigation presents for the first time named military witnesses who back those assertions. Some participated themselves.

Through a combination of gung-ho recklessness and criminal behaviour born of panic, a narrative emerges of an army that frequently commits acts of cold-blooded violence. A number of interviewees revealed that the military will attempt to frame innocent bystanders as insurgents, often after panicked American troops have fired into groups of unarmed Iraqis. The veterans said the troops involved would round up any survivors and accuse them of being in the resistance while planting Kalashnikov AK47 rifles beside corpses to make it appear that they had died in combat.

"It would always be an AK because they have so many of these lying around," said Joe Hatcher, 26, a scout with the 4th Calvary Regiment. He revealed the army also planted 9mm handguns and shovels to make it look like the civilians were shot while digging a hole for a roadside bomb.

"Every good cop carries a throwaway," Hatcher said of weapons planted on innocent victims in incidents that occurred while he was stationed between Tikrit and Samarra, from February 2004 to March 2005. Any survivors were sent to jail for interrogation.

There were also deaths caused by the reckless behaviour of military convoys. Sgt Kelly Dougherty of the Colorado National Guard described a hit-and-run in which a military convoy ran over a 10-year-old boy and his three donkeys, killing them all. "Judging by the skid marks, they hardly even slowed down. But, I mean... your order is that you never stop."

The worst abuses seem to have been during raids on private homes when soldiers were hunting insurgents. Thousands of such raids have taken place, usually at dead of night. The veterans point out that most are futile and serve only to terrify the civilians, while generating sympathy for the resistance.

Sgt John Bruhns, 29, of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Armoured Division, described a typical raid. "You want to catch them off guard," he explained. "You want to catch them in their sleep ... You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall... Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds. You'll ask 'Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda?'

"Normally they'll say no, because that's normally the truth," Sgt Bruhns said. "So you'll take his sofa cushions and dump them. You'll open up his closet and you'll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it." And at the end, if the soldiers don't find anything, they depart with a "Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening".
Sgt Dougherty described her squad leader shooting an Iraqi civilian in the back in 2003. "The mentality of my squad leader was like, 'Oh, we have to kill them over here so I don't have to kill them back in Colorado'," she said. "He just seemed to view every Iraqi as a potential terrorist."

'It would always happen. We always got the wrong house...'
"People would make jokes about it, even before we'd go into a raid, like, 'Oh ****, we're gonna get the wrong house'. Cause it would always happen. We always got the wrong house."
Sergeant Jesus Bocanegra, 25, of Weslaco, Texas 4th Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour that began in March 2003

"I had to go tell this woman that her husband was actually dead. We gave her money, we gave her, like, 10 crates of water, we gave the kids, I remember, maybe it was soccer balls and toys. We just didn't really know what else to do."
Lieutenant Jonathan Morgenstein, 35, of Arlington, Virginia, Marine Corps civil affairs unit. In Ramadi from August 2004 to March 2005

"We were approaching this one house... and we're approaching, and they had a family dog. And it was barking ferociously, cause it's doing its job. And my squad leader, just out of nowhere, just shoots it... So I see this dog - I'm a huge animal lover... this dog has, like, these eyes on it and he's running around spraying blood all over the place. And like, you know, what the hell is going on? The family is sitting right there, with three little children and a mom and a dad, horrified. And I'm at a loss for words."
Specialist Philip Chrystal, 23, of Reno, 3rd Battalion, 116th Cavalry Brigade. In Kirkuk and Hawija on 11-month tour beginning November 2004

"I'll tell you the point where I really turned... [there was] this little, you know, pudgy little two-year-old child with the cute little pudgy legs and she has a bullet through her leg... An IED [improvised explosive device] went off, the gun-happy soldiers just started shooting anywhere and the baby got hit. And this baby looked at me... like asking me why. You know, 'Why do I have a bullet in my leg?'... I was just like, 'This is, this is it. This is ridiculous'."
Specialist Michael Harmon, 24, of Brooklyn, 167th Armour Regiment, 4th Infantry Division. In Al-Rashidiya on 13-month tour beginning in April 2003

"I open a bag and I'm trying to get bandages out and the guys in the guard tower are yelling at me, 'Get that **** haji out of here,'... our doctor rolls up in an ambulance and from 30 to 40 meters away looks out and says, shakes his head and says, 'You know, he looks fine, he's gonna be all right,' and walks back... kind of like, 'Get your ass over here and drive me back up to the clinic'. So I'm standing there, and the whole time both this doctor and the guards are yelling at me, you know, to get rid of this guy."
Specialist Patrick Resta, 29, from Philadelphia, 252nd Armour, 1st Infantry Division. In Jalula for nine months beginning March 2004

'Every person opened fire on this kid, using the biggest weapons we could find...'
"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."
Sergeant Patrick Campbell, 29, of Camarillo, California, 256th Infantry Brigade. In Abu Gharth for 11 months beginning November 2004

"Cover your own butt was the first rule of engagement. Someone could look at me the wrong way and I could claim my safety was in threat."
Lieutenant Brady Van Engelen, 26, of Washington DC, 1st Armoured Division. Eight-month tour of Baghdad beginning Sept 2003

I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, 'A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi... You know, so what?'... [Only when we got home] in... meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then."
Specialist Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado, 3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry. In Baquba for a year beginning February 2004

"[The photo] was very graphic... They open the body bags of these prisoners that were shot in the head and [one soldier has] got a spoon. He's reaching in to scoop out some of his brain, looking at the camera and smiling."
Specialist Aidan Delgado, 25, of Sarasota, Florida, 320th Military Police Company. Deployed to Talil air base for one year beginning April 2003

"The car was approaching what was in my opinion a very poorly marked checkpoint... and probably didn't even see the soldiers... The guys got spooked and decided it was a possible threat, so they shot up the car. And they [the bodies] literally sat in the car for the next three days while we drove by them.
Sergeant Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. One-year from February 2004

"The frustration that resulted from our inability to get back at those who were attacking us led to tactics that seemed designed simply to punish the local population..."
Sergeant Camilo Mejía, 31, from Miami, National Guardsman, 1-124 Infantry Battalion, 53rd Infantry Brigade. Six-month tour beginning April 2003

"I just remember thinking, 'I just brought terror to someone under the American flag'."
Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004

"A lot of guys really supported that whole concept that if they don't speak English and they have darker skin, they're not as human as us, so we can do what we want."
Specialist Josh Middleton, 23, of New York City, 2nd Battalion, 82nd Airborne Division. Four-month tour in Baghdad and Mosul beginning December 2004

"I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with, and everybody else be damned."
Sergeant Ben Flanders, 28, National Guardsman from Concord, New Hampshire, 172nd Mountain Infantry. In Balad for 11 months beginning March 2004
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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They must be taking reich wing extremist Michael Savage seriously when he said that the West should kill 100 million Muslims. That's the true terrorism.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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http://kstp.com/article/stories/S138680.shtml?cat=162

Ex-Abu Ghraib Guard Named to Rec Board (AP) KEYSER, W.Va. - Lynndie England, one of the most recognizable figures of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in Iraq, has a new role as a member of this Eastern Panhandle city’s volunteer recreation board...

England was released in March from a military prison in San Diego after serving half her 36-month sentence. She was convicted of six counts involving prisoner mistreatment. Eleven U.S. soldiers have been convicted of crimes at the prison near Baghdad.
England was in several images taken in late 2003 by U.S. guards at Abu Ghraib. One shows her holding a naked prisoner on a leash, while in others she posed with a pyramid of naked detainees and pointed at the genitals of a prisoner while a cigarette hung from the corner of her mouth.
The photos were among several that sparked outrage and severely damaged America’s image in the Muslim world.

------------------------------------------------------------------


This is how Republicans treat a serial rapist whose crimes led to the deaths of several innocents at Abu Ghraib.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
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Great Satan
Cry more, JBee. The politicos sent us over there. The blame lies on them.

You can compare us to "we're just following orders" nazis all you want but in the end what really matters is this:

It's better to be judged by 12 than carried to your grave by 6.

War is ugly, there aren't really any good guys. The war in the middle east could be over in a day if the politicians and the other moneymakers didn't have so much interest in making money.

I shot at people who were shooting at me when I was there, and I don't have a single guilty thought about it...why? Because I'm sitting here typing this and they aren't.
 
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#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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What was Lynndie England, A PFC? She goes to jail for three years. Did anyone in that mess above the rank of sergeant go to jail?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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I shot at people who were shooting at me when I was there, and I don't have a single guilty thought about it...why? Because I'm sitting here typing this and they aren't.

wow

and I'm sure you're a better man for it.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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Vancouver Island
This whole mess is sinking into a mire that has such a stench to it. I wonder where it's all going.
When 2008 comes around Bush will slink back to Texas, and live his cushy money filled life, with
that permanent smirk on his face, and will leave thousands and thousands of American and Iraqi
soldiers and civilians to live out their lives scarred in many ways. It is all very sad.
Sadam Husein was a very bad guy, but now with 20/20 hindsight, I wish it was 'then and not now",
and bush had lost the election, and gore had won, I know for sure, things would have been done
differently. Iraq would never have been attacked.
 

JBeee

Time Out
Jun 1, 2007
1,826
52
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Cry more, JBee. The politicos sent us over there. The blame lies on them.

You can compare us to "we're just following orders" nazis all you want but in the end what really matters is this:

It's better to be judged by 12 than carried to your grave by 6.

War is ugly, there aren't really any good guys. The war in the middle east could be over in a day if the politicians and the other moneymakers didn't have so much interest in making money.

I shot at people who were shooting at me when I was there, and I don't have a single guilty thought about it...why? Because I'm sitting here typing this and they aren't.

My hero!!


:roll:
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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Thank you for your service.

Cry more, JBee. The politicos sent us over there. The blame lies on them.

You can compare us to "we're just following orders" nazis all you want but in the end what really matters is this:

It's better to be judged by 12 than carried to your grave by 6.

War is ugly, there aren't really any good guys. The war in the middle east could be over in a day if the politicians and the other moneymakers didn't have so much interest in making money.

I shot at people who were shooting at me when I was there, and I don't have a single guilty thought about it...why? Because I'm sitting here typing this and they aren't.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
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What was Lynndie England, A PFC? She goes to jail for three years. Did anyone in that mess above the rank of sergeant go to jail?

As far as I recall, no. Karpinski was reduced in rank and the others reprimanded but no jail sentences for officers.

Had it been rape and torture that took place out in the streets, or had Yanks been victims of foreign aggression, people would have demanded the death penalty. But that's American double standards for you.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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As far as I recall, no. Karpinski was reduced in rank and the others reprimanded but no jail sentences for officers.

Had it been rape and torture that took place out in the streets, or had Yanks been victims of foreign aggression, people would have demanded the death penalty. But that's American double standards for you.

All militaries have some of this. We know the grunts are easier to jail.
 

Minority Observer84

Theism Exorcist
Sep 26, 2006
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The Capitol
Like i've always maintained true terrorism has never been carried out as effectivley nor on such wide a scale as by the united states. The terrorist we all fear will not come wearing a head band carrying and ak-47 But he will come wearing fatiuges a smile and talking to us about "freedom" .
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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"Here's some guy, some 14-year-old kid with an AK47, decides he's going to start shooting at this convoy. It was the most obscene thing you've ever seen. Every person got out and opened fire on this kid. Using the biggest weapons we could find, we ripped him to shreds..."

Well, apparently shooting at someone shooting at you is wrong. If that is you view its defensible, there is never an excuse for killing.

In which case why are you whining? What could you do to stop this from going on? Perhaps I'll wander over and shoot at you, perhaps torture you, knowing you wouldn't support anyone stopping me..they would have to kill me to do it.

Its an odd view to fight against nature and self defence, and civilization. I mean, You must not support having police either. They shoot people who open fire on people too. I mean, supporting total anarchy is an odd view if you actually don't like people dying. But thats your view.


Of course more likely, you've just lead a sheltered life and like to look down on people on the internet.


But seriously, if you refuse to kill someone who shoots at you, how do you plan to send these people to jail? They have guns, and they sure as hell aren't going to wander off to jail for the rest of their life because they engaged in self defence, all because you tell them to and threaten to sign a petition. I wouldn't.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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If I saw an armored vehicle that contained soldiers who I knew were responsible for killing my family and tearing my nation apart...I'd shoot at them too.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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If say "Russia" had behaved like the United States and employed Shock and Awe as foreign policy in the Ukraine or Checnya or like the U.S...simply spun the wheel or thrown a dart at the map of the world as decision making process regarding who the "enemy" is today....there might be a different tone to this discussion. Canadians are being killed by Improvised Explosive Devices and snipers and mortars ...because they're there....you wander into a nation with B-52's and cruise missiles...you're going to have the natives fighting you back....no rocket science involved here...

Americans are being killed because they invaded another country....now it's time to blame the Iraqi government for not meeting the "plans" of the invaders to America's satisfaction...

Those dirty barbarians....fighting invading armies and blowing up Canadians and Americans who've come to kill them....WHAT NERVE!
 

Phil B

Electoral Member
Mar 17, 2007
333
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Brighton,UK
If say "Russia" had behaved like the United States and employed Shock and Awe as foreign policy in the Ukraine or Checnya or like the U.S...simply spun the wheel or thrown a dart at the map of the world as decision making process regarding who the "enemy" is today....there might be a different tone to this discussion.

I was under the impression that it is rumoured that Russia had done exactly the things in both the Ukraine and in Chechnya that the US is getting continually slated for in a great number of threads on here - ie invaded one and attempted to remove an opposition candidate in the other through foul means.
Its just a lot easier sometimes to pick on the faults of the neighbours that you speak to regularly rather than the quite secretive foreign family down the road.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
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not in Kansas anymore
Last weekend 250 iraqis died because they made the grave error of grocery shopping. They were not killed by U.S. troops,they were killed by other members of the religion of peace. Women,children,innocents,blown to bits because they did not adhere to the right way of islam.It is time for the troops to pull out and let these barbarians fight to the finish.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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PhilB

Could you provide us with some examples of how the actions of the Russian's in those nations paralleled Shock and Awe?

Where is the five years of war that followed their mistake?
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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wallyj said:
Last weekend 250 iraqis died because they made the grave error of grocery shopping. They were not killed by U.S. troops,they were killed by other members of the religion of peace. Women,children,innocents,blown to bits because they did not adhere to the right way of islam.It is time for the troops to pull out and let these barbarians fight to the finish.



There were no death squads or any form of terrorism in Iraq until Bush invaded and appointed John Negroponte as ambassador.