US threatens to cut annual Egyptian bribe

[earth_as_one]

The US bribes Egypt with $1.3 billion in military aid each year. In exchange for this American "foreign aid", Egypt is required to maintain peaceful relations with Israel. Cutting off this bribe money completely would probably result in a democratically elected government hostile to the US and Israel.

Recently Israel has been pulling the strings of American politicians they own to threaten the size of Egypt's bribe. The problem is that for some time now, arms and militants have been flowing to Gaza through Egypt via an elaborate smuggling network. This network was probably a factor in Hamas ousting Fatah from Gaza. Now that Hamas rules Gaza and benefits directly from the smuggling, the rate of militants and arms has likely increased.

U.S., Egypt at odds on Gaza border curbs
Washington urges Cairo to step up efforts to control smuggling of arms and funds to Hamas. Egypt says the threat is exaggerated.

By Paul Richter, Times Staff Writer
June 23, 2007

...in a further sign of American concern, the House early Friday adopted a foreign aid bill that would cut $200 million of the $1.3 billion in annual military aid to Egypt unless it halts smuggling at the Gaza border and curbs human rights abuses....
http://www.latimes.com/news/printed...ory?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=1&cset=true

Human rights abuses? That's a joke. The US regularly abducts people and send them to Egypt for interrogation/torture/execution.

But back on subject. The smuggling network is a real threat to Israel's military domination of Gaza. There are now so many arms and militants in Gaza now that all Israel can do is try to seal Gaza's borders with Egypt and occasionally launch raids into Gaza. Soon even those occasional raids will become too dangerous. Its even possible that Gazans might even force Israel to withdraw their forces from the Gaza/Egypt border and seize control of their own borders, opening up Gaza to the free flow of food, medicine, trade.... as well as more arms and militants.

Even though Israel would like Egyptians to help stem the flow of weapons and militants into Gaza, Egypt's hands are somewhat tied. Even if Egypt wanted to post more border guards along its border with Gaza, they can't. Under the terms of a international pact Egypt is not allowed to post more than 1000 police and military in the area along Israel's border.

Egyptians in general are sypathetic to Palestinian suffering, especially in Gaza which at one time was occupied by Egypt (before its was occupied by Israel). Likely many Egyptian border guards can be bribed to look the other way as militants and arms go into buildings near the Israeli border and disappear.

A major battle is coming. At some point Gazans will attack Israelis soldiers which control their border with Egypt and Gaza will become a battleground. Gazans have little choice. They either fight Israel or allow Israel to starve them.

 

[Colpy]

Yes, the people of Gaza depend on Israel for their economic well-being, having been abused and abandoned by every Arab nation......unless, of course, they are willing to strap on some explosives and blow up a few Jewish women and children.

They elected Hamas, who are sworn to destroy Israel, they tolerate Hamas in their midst, they are (to a degree) the authors of their own misfortune.

Now things will be much, much worse for the people of Gaza, thanks to your heroes, the Persian Pawns known as Hamas.

WAKE UP, EAO, these people don't want peace. By that, I mean the militants, not the population at large. What is happening in Gaza is NOT the fault of Israel, or the USA, but of Iran, Syria, and those who support Hamas.

 

[Northboy]

A history lesson for us...

Relationships based on bribes are fragile indeed, with unexpected consequences once the bribes stop..Probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but no Goodwill..See where its gotten them..

 

[#juan]

Yes, the people of Gaza depend on Israel for their economic well-being, having been abused and abandoned by every Arab nation......unless, of course, they are willing to strap on some explosives and blow up a few Jewish women and children.

They elected Hamas, who are sworn to destroy Israel, they tolerate Hamas in their midst, they are (to a degree) the authors of their own misfortune.

Now things will be much, much worse for the people of Gaza, thanks to your heroes, the Persian Pawns known as Hamas.

WAKE UP, EAO, these people don't want peace. By that, I mean the militants, not the population at large. What is happening in Gaza is NOT the fault of Israel, or the USA, but of Iran, Syria, and those who support Hamas.

You mean it's not the acquisitive nature of the Israelis who, with the blessings and help of the U.S., now have all of Palestine, a bit of Lebanon, a bit of Syria, a bit of Jordan, and a bit of Egypt.

 

[Just the Facts]

You mean it's not the acquisitive nature of the Israelis who, with the blessings and help of the U.S., now have all of Palestine, a bit of Lebanon, a bit of Syria, a bit of Jordan, and a bit of Egypt.

Correct. The Israeli's have roughly 20% of Palestine, a little piece of Syria that was used as a launching pad against them (which they offered to return as recently as last month in exchange for peace...guess what? no answer) a little piece of Jordon (Judea) tenuously, which they also offered to return...guess what? Jordan wanted no part of dealing with "Palestinians" even as long as 40 years ago. None of Lebanon and None of Egypt.

 

[earth_as_one]

Actually I'm inclined to agree with you partially C.

Palestinians are dependant on Israel for their welfare. As a result they face disease, starvation as well as Israeli bombs and bullets.

Amnesty International
...Conditions for Palestinians in the OPT deteriorated throughout the year. Their economic situation was hit hard by Israel's confiscation of import tax duties that it collects on behalf of the PA, half the entire PA government budget; the cut in aid to the PA government by international donors, notably the European Union (EU) and the USA; and banking sanctions imposed by Israel, which prevented the transfer of funds to the Hamas administration. The measures left the PA government, the largest employer in the OPT, unable to pay salaries or deliver health, education and other key services to three and a half million Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The international community took no measures to require Israel, as the occupying power, to meet its obligation under international law to ensure the basic humanitarian needs of the Palestinian population. The EU established a Temporary International Mechanism (TIM) in an effort to reduce the humanitarian crisis. However, by the end of the year it was still not fully operational and did not prevent further deterioration of the already overstretched health sector, which could not cope with a growing number of patients. The increased demand was caused by the numerous casualties of Israeli military attacks and the patients who were prevented from seeking treatment abroad by the continuing Israeli blockade on the Gaza Strip.
Education and other crucial public services were similarly affected by the lack of funds, particularly when the PA was unable to pay the salaries of more than 150,000 public sector workers for several months. In September teachers joined other public sector workers striking to protest against the non-payment of their salaries. The education of hundreds of thousands of children was disrupted as a result. In December UN aid agencies launched a US$450 million emergency appeal in response to the growing needs of the Palestinian population.

Destruction of Palestinian infrastructure by Israeli forces caused long-term damage and a further worsening of living conditions. In June, Israeli forces bombed and badly damaged the Gaza Strip's only power plant, which supplied electricity to half of its 1.5 million inhabitants and left them without electricity for most of the day throughout the hottest months of the year, and often without water that is extracted and distributed using electricity. Israeli forces also bombed bridges, roads, and water and sewage networks. Hundreds of Palestinians were made homeless as scores of buildings were destroyed and damaged by Israeli air strikes and artillery shelling in the Gaza Strip. Other homes were demolished by Israeli bulldozers in the West Bank, including in the East Jerusalem area....

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Palestinian-Authority

I'd also agree that well armed and trained militants who have been sneaking into Gaza lately probably didn't come for peaceful purposes. But they probably have every intention of reducing Palestinian dependance on Israel for their welfare.

But I disagree that funding and arming one side of this dispute is a worse crime than funding and arming the other.

 

[#juan]

Correct. The Israeli's have roughly 20% of Palestine, a little piece of Syria that was used as a launching pad against them (which they offered to return as recently as last month in exchange for peace...guess what? no answer) a little piece of Jordon (Judea) tenuously, which they also offered to return...guess what? Jordan wanted no part of dealing with "Palestinians" even as long as 40 years ago. None of Lebanon and None of Egypt.

UN Plan of Partition
more maps​

UN Partition Plan

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people’s land.
Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state — despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

 

[earth_as_one]

A history lesson for us...

Relationships based on bribes are fragile indeed, with unexpected consequences once the bribes stop..Probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but no Goodwill..See where its gotten them..

If the bribes ever stop, Egyptians will overthrow their unpopular dictator. Even though its hard to say who would gain from this, Israel would be an obvious looser.

 

[Just the Facts]

UN Plan of Partition
more maps​

UN Partition Plan

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people’s land.
Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state — despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land.

That's the second partition. Where did Jordon come from? Remember, under the Balfor plan, the entire British Mandate of Palestine was slated to become a Jewish homeland. This BEFORE WW2 and the Holocaust, for those who insist it was just sympathy for the holocaust survivors that inspired Israel. TranJordan was given to the Hashemites as a reward for the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing. Your map above is misleading, as it shows Palestine after TransJordan was already cut away in the twenties.

So, I stand by my statement, roughly 20% (I think 23 or so percent) of Palestine.

 

[Northboy]

If the bribes ever stop, Egyptians will overthrow their unpopular dictator. Even though its hard to say who would gain from this, Israel would be an obvious looser.

Bribes are a lazy man's way to creating Goodwill. This type of Goodwill is faux..

Consider what Aristotle said:

(paraphrased for brevity)

Corruption= Lazy + Vain + Greed

Lazy, and in this manifestation, bribes are a foundation for corruption...

This person knew this and taught this an awful long time ago...

What's happened to us??

 

[Just the Facts]

So, I stand by my statement, roughly 20% (I think 23 or so percent) of Palestine.

My mistake, I apologize.

25% was actually the entire portion of Palestine west of the Jordan. That includes Gaza and the West Bank. The area apportioned to Israel in the original UN Partition plan was actually about 15% of the original British Mandate of Palestine.

 

[Just the Facts]

If the bribes ever stop, Egyptians will overthrow their unpopular dictator. Even though its hard to say who would gain from this, Israel would be an obvious looser.

GDP (purchasing power parity): $334.4 billion (2006 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/eg.html


So, out of 334.4 Billion, take away a measly 1.3 Billion in military aid, and Egypt goes the way of Gaza?

 

[#juan]

That's the second partition. Where did Jordon come from? Remember, under the Balfor plan, the entire British Mandate of Palestine was slated to become a Jewish homeland. This BEFORE WW2 and the Holocaust, for those who insist it was just sympathy for the holocaust survivors that inspired Israel. TranJordan was given to the Hashemites as a reward for the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing. Your map above is misleading, as it shows Palestine after TransJordan was already cut away in the twenties.

So, I stand by my statement, roughly 20% (I think 23 or so percent) of Palestine.

Stand by whatever you want. The Balfour Declaration also said that the indigenous people of Palestine were not to be interfered with or words to that effect.

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour

And as we know, the Jews stayed within the boundaries of the land they were given for maybe five minutes. They immediately set out to drive the Arabs out of Palestine.........even to the point of lining up women and children and shooting them. Deir Yassin is a good example. They drove the Arabs out of their villages and then burned the villages to the ground so they couldn't come back. Israel is a done deal but I can't think of anything that will make it honourable.

 

[earth_as_one]

That's the second partition. Where did Jordon come from? Remember, under the Balfor plan, the entire British Mandate of Palestine was slated to become a Jewish homeland. This BEFORE WW2 and the Holocaust, for those who insist it was just sympathy for the holocaust survivors that inspired Israel. TranJordan was given to the Hashemites as a reward for the whole Lawrence of Arabia thing. Your map above is misleading, as it shows Palestine after TransJordan was already cut away in the twenties.

So, I stand by my statement, roughly 20% (I think 23 or so percent) of Palestine.

In 1947, Jews only made up a significant minority of Palestine. Most of these people were recent immigrants and refugees from Europe.

Your logic is a numbers game. Jews were a minority in Palestine. There were almost non-existant in Jordan. There were more Jews in Egypt than Jordan. Why not include Egypt too. In fact lets also factor in Antartica another place with a non-existant Jewish population. Now dividing all these lands unequally 60/40 between the Jewish minority and the non-Jewish majority, the Jewish immigrants would end up with all of Palestine, Jordan and Egypt and a significant part of Antartica. The inhabitants of Palestine, Jordan and Egypt could be relocated to their 40% of the total, which would be 100% in Antartica. Accroding to your logic that would be fair too.

How about the Jews forming a country out of what they owned? That would have meant the Palestinians would have been able to keep their homes in 93% of Palestine and the immigrant Jews could have lived in their homes which would be 7%. Letting people keep their homes or what they paid for would have been fair.

But if you don't understand how your logic is flawed, then imagine discovering a homeless person in your living room. You can't get him to leave and so you take your complaint to court and the judge who is sympathetic to the homeless person awards him the 60% of what used to be your house. Your complaints about the unfairness are ignored so you start a fight. You loose that fight and as a result the homeless person now occupies 70% of your house. Over the years his area gets bigger and yours get's smaller. Now you are locked in a cage under the stairs.

Amazing that anyone could believe a small group of mostly immigrants kicking people out of their homes and relocating them to refuge camps is fair. Anyone who moves into a fully furnished house while the former occupants live in a refugee camp should feel like a thief as they take down the family portaits and put up their own. Even razing the home to the ground to put up your own, its still wrong.

Think of the unfairness of being removed from your home by force and living in a refugee camp, without running water or flushing toilets knowing that the new occupants of your home have a pool. While they relax by the pool, on the other side of a concrete reinforced wall with barbwire and guard towers, you suffer for lack of clean water, food shortages, rotating blackouts...

Even a 5 year old knows its wrong to take what belongs to others.

 

[Phil B]

I wish my world could be quite so black and white as this thread.

 

[earth_as_one]

Stand by whatever you want. The Balfour Declaration also said that the indigenous people of Palestine were not to be interfered with or words to that effect.


And as we know, the Jews stayed within the boundaries of the land they were given for maybe five minutes. They immediately set out to drive the Arabs out of Palestine.........even to the point of lining up women and children and shooting them. Deir Yassin is a good example. They drove the Arabs out of their villages and then burned the villages to the ground so they couldn't come back. Israel is a done deal but I can't think of anything that will make it honourable.

There is plenty of evidence which shows the original Zionists planned to ethnically cleanse Israel of non-Jews back in the 1800's. Even during the 1930's, it was clear that Zionists intended to cleanse Palestine of non-Jews

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story694.html

Historian Ilan Pappe on Israel and the history of it’s destructive role in the Middle East

...The number of Jews coming into the country increased by the day – although even at that point, during the 1930s, the Jews were just a quarter of the population, possessing 4 percent of the land.

As resistance to colonialism strengthened, the Zionist leadership became convinced that only through a total expulsion of the Palestinians would they be able to create a state of their own.

From its early inception and up to the 1930s, Zionist thinkers propagated the need to ethnically cleanse the indigenous population of Palestine if the dream of a Jewish state were to come true...

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=9307

 

[earth_as_one]

GDP (purchasing power parity): $334.4 billion (2006 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/eg.html


So, out of 334.4 Billion, take away a measly 1.3 Billion in military aid, and Egypt goes the way of Gaza?

We are talking about $1.3 billion in arms. You have to compare that support to the $2.5 billion Egypt spends on arms, not its entire economy. Also Mubarak controls this "foreign aid", so yes it does make a difference. Without this "aid" Mubarak would have a substantially reduced ability to control Egyptians.

 

[earth_as_one]

I wish my world could be quite so black and white as this thread.

Its called debating. Why don't you add your own viewpoint. I'm curious to hear what you think.

 

[earth_as_one]

Related:

June 23, 2007 Let Gaza live

By Gideon Levy

Here is a success story: Israel and the West imposed a boycott on the Palestinian Authority with the aim of weakening Hamas, and a year and a half later this brilliant policy has yielded its fruits: Hamas has become stronger. If there is a lesson from the fiasco in Gaza, here it is: Starving, drying up and blocking aid do not sear the consciousness and do not weaken political movements. On the contrary.

Reality has refuted the chorus of experts and commentators who preached in behalf of the boycott policy. This daft notion that it is possible to topple an elected government by applying pressure on a helpless population suffered a complete failure. The world boycotted the unity government, which could perhaps have prevented the harsh scenes in Gaza if it had been allowed to rule, and consequently we received the alternative: the complete takeover of Gaza by Hamas in a military coup, tearing Gaza away from the West Bank. This is bad news...


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/874149.html

Voices of reason exist on both sides:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May 12, 2006 by CommonDreams.org[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why Are Hamas Peace Moves Ignored? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Ira Chernus [/FONT]​

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0512-34.htm

 

[Zzarchov]

If it wants peace: Step 1, admit Israel has a right to exist. If you don't, you instead admit you wish to destroy it (and thus can never have peace)