Canada, going down American Drains

Canada, going down American Drains

darkbeaver

Republican

#1Apr 23rd, 2007

Leaked document reveals bulk water exports to be discussed at continental integration talks

By Council of Canadians

--, May 1, 2007
Council of Canadians

Ottawa – The leaked document of a prominent Washington-based think tank obtained by the Council of Canadians reveals that government officials and business leaders from Canada, Mexico and the United States are scheduled to discuss bulk water exports in a closed-door meeting at the end of the month as part of a larger discussion on North American integration.

Titled the “--,” the initiative being led by the U.S.-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, the Conference Board of Canada and the Mexican Centro de Investigación y Docencia Económicas calls for a series of “closed-door meetings” on North American integration dealing with a number of highly contentious issues including bulk water exports, a joint security perimeter and a continental resource pact.

According to the document, a roundtable on the “Future of the North American Environment,” is planned for Friday April 27 in Calgary, and will discuss “water consumption, water transfers and artificial diversions of bulk water” with the aim of achieving “joint optimum utilization of the available water.”

"This is just the latest in a series of closed-door meetings that grant the business sector privileged access while shutting out the public,” says Maude Barlow, national chairperson of the Council of Canadians. “The document is damning not just because it outlines a process that lacks transparency and accountability,” says Barlow, “but also because of what is being discussed by governments and so-called corporate stakeholders.”

The document also reveals that “trilateral coordination of energy policy” and the development of “North American security architecture” are being discussed by high-level government officials from Canada, the U.S. and Mexico.

The Council of Canadians is demanding that the Canadian government cease all further participation in such talks on North American integration until there is parliamentary debate and meaningful public consultation on the issue.

To consult the leaked document Leaked document: -- (PDF format)
Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS)

Kreskin

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

I heard somewhere that Canada has three-quarters of the world's supply of fresh water. Unless everyone here is really bloody thirsty...

wallyj

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

If we can safely export our resources to another country,let's do it.There is some that think any talks with the U.S. is really,really bad and will only lead to us becoming the 51st province. How immature. The states are our largest trading partner,by far,and will get along without us a lot better than we will without them.

the caracal kid

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

I see it as funny that the talks what in essence is water privatization is occuring in calgary, a city that privatized its groundwaters and is at the risk of having no public water supply should the projections of the bow and elbow running dry prove true.

More seriously, when will canada learn that bulk exportation of raw goods does not do canada any good? have all forms of entrepreneurialism been bred out of this place?

Stretch

Free Thinker

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by wallyj

If we can safely export our resources to another country,let's do it.There is some that think any talks with the U.S. is really,really bad and will only lead to us becoming the 51st province. How immature. The states are our largest trading partner,by far,and will get along without us a lot better than we will without them.

You heard of the North American Union......?
the good ol' us of g don't have friends, just people they haven't attacked yet.
wont be long till a war is fought over water rather than oil...water being more important than oil.

I think not

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

So with all this Global Warming melting go around where is all the water?

L Gilbert

No Party Affiliation

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Dealing with the USA usually ends up in one being shafted (how free is free trade? Softwood lumber?). Simple as that. If they want our water (like they don't have any of their own), they should pay through their beaks for it.
I've been saying for quite a few years now that Canada should goddam well develop more trade with others on the planet and quit relying so heavily on trade with the US. Ah, but no, things are comfy cozy as is. Stick with the status quo, it'll last forever.

darkbeaver

Republican

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

So with all this Global Warming melting go around where is all the water?

In the sea ITN follow a river and live the experiance. And the birds are in the sky in case you're wondering.

I think not

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Dealing with the USA usually ends up in one being shafted (how free is free trade? Softwood lumber?). Simple as that.

Not quite that simple. Softwood Lumber was never part of NAFTA. The US wanted softwood out of NAFTA and Canada wanted cultural issues out of NAFTA. You got what you asked for.

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

If they want our water (like they don't have any of their own), they should pay through their beaks for it.

Markets dictate price not wishful thinking.

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

I've been saying for quite a few years now that Canada should goddam well develop more trade with others on the planet and quit relying so heavily on trade with the US. Ah, but no, things are comfy cozy as is. Stick with the status quo, it'll last forever.

Look into your history and take a close look how many of your PM's tried "diversifying" your exports. Nobody is interested.

I think not

#10

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver

In the sea ITN follow a river and live the experiance. And the birds are in the sky in case you're wondering.

Thanks for the heads up.

L Gilbert

No Party Affiliation

#11

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Not quite that simple. Softwood Lumber was never part of NAFTA. The US wanted softwood out of NAFTA and Canada wanted cultural issues out of NAFTA. You got what you asked for.

Wrong. We got what pols settled for. Big diff.

Quote:

Markets dictate price not wishful thinking.

Demand dictates pricing. Why is fuel so high? There's no shortage. Canada has enough to last itself for another few hundred years. People are willing to pay the price so the price stays up.

Quote:

Look into your history and take a close look how many of your PM's tried "diversifying" your exports. Nobody is interested.

Countries change: like Russia, Venezuela, China. Even Canada isn't the same as it was in its history.

I think not

#12

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Wrong. We got what pols settled for. Big diff.

Either way, softwood lumber isn't part of NAFTA.

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Demand dictates pricing. Why is fuel so high? There's no shortage. Canada has enough to last itself for another few hundred years. People are willing to pay the price so the price stays up.

I imagine because you don't have enough refining capacity, not to mention your inter-provincial trade barriers, and your whopping gas tax.

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

Countries change: like Russia, Venezuela, China. Even Canada isn't the same as it was in its history.

Well then what's stopping you?

L Gilbert

No Party Affiliation

#13

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 23rd, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Either way, softwood lumber isn't part of NAFTA.

I didn't say it was.

Quote:

I imagine because you don't have enough refining capacity, not to mention your inter-provincial trade barriers, and your whopping gas tax.

You folks don't have high fuel prices?

Quote:

Well then what's stopping you?

It's happening, but not very quickly.

the caracal kid

#14

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

I imagine because you don't have enough refining capacity, not to mention your inter-provincial trade barriers, and your whopping gas tax.

very pertinent points, i think not.

refining capacity: have you researched the history of refining in canada? On the surface it has that "made in canada problem" appearance of the dumb canadian exploiting resources, and being exploited by those he sells it to.

our inter-provincial trade barriers are a serious issue that has not been addressed accordingly by our politicians. As with so much in Canada though, the provinces bicker amungst each other to the detriment of all.

Our gas taxes are not so whopping. the issue with our gas taxes is the same that there is with most of our taxes: the money goes into the government pool rather than being directed to programs related to what is being taxed.

I think not

#15

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by the caracal kid

the issue with our gas taxes is the same that there is with most of our taxes: the money goes into the government pool rather than being directed to programs related to what is being taxed.

On average (unless I am mistaken) one third of your gas prices goes towards taxes (federal & provincial), I would say that's whopping.

BitWhys

#16

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Kreskin

I heard somewhere that Canada has three-quarters of the world's supply of fresh water. Unless everyone here is really bloody thirsty...

Other than the whole "the ecosystem probably needs a good chunk of it" thing I think we can come up with an inch or two of water levels to accomodate them but they better bring their chequebook. Until then I hope D'Aquino et al enjoy that little sandbox the politicos set up for them.

keeps Maude on her toes, though, don't it?

Last edited by BitWhys; Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:08 AM..

ottawa224

#17

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

It is wrong to sell the water itself. If mexico and U.S what to pay for the land and pipes to run the water, I'm for it. In exchange for the water, U.S should sofen up on other exports.

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#18

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

We could build a half dozen water pipelines to the U.S. and sell our water wholesale. The problem is: How will we ever shut them off? Populations in the U.S. will grow and Canadian water will become a way of life that they would go to war to keep. Our water supply, like the oil, is not infinite. We shouldn't even be discussing this with them. Water should already be more valuable than oil.

Zan

Green

#19

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

I've been wondering something about this issue of water for awhile now. We have the technology to convert salt water into fresh water, yes? I understand there would be a great deal of expense involved in processing the amount of water needed to provide what will be required in the not too distant future. However, would this not be an expense well worth investing in? I assume there must be other hindrances to this otherwise quite obvious solution, but I don't know what they are. Can anyone school me a little about this?

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#20

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Zan

I've been wondering something about this issue of water for awhile now. We have the technology to convert salt water into fresh water, yes? I understand there would be a great deal of expense involved in processing the amount of water needed to provide what will be required in the not too distant future. However, would this not be an expense well worth investing in? I assume there must be other hindrances to this otherwise quite obvious solution, but I don't know what they are. Can anyone school me a little about this?

The conversion of salt water to fresh, takes only energy. You boil the water and condense the steam and voila, fresh water. It is not without problems. This takes a fair amount of energy and you have to do something with the salt. You could just dump the salt back into the ocean but I don't know what the ecological ramifications might be. Right now, we don't need desalination. The U.S. does. We sure don't want to use it so we can pipe water to the U.S.. We are already polluting our air in a couple locations to generate power to sell to the U.S.

--

Zan

Green

#21

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

ah. thanks Juan, I'll read up on that link.

s243a

#22

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 24th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

We could build a half dozen water pipelines to the U.S. and sell our water wholesale. The problem is: How will we ever shut them off? Populations in the U.S. will grow and Canadian water will become a way of life that they would go to war to keep. Our water supply, like the oil, is not infinite. We shouldn't even be discussing this with them. Water should already be more valuable than oil.

I more or less agree with Juan. We would need assurences that we can limit supply to adress enviornemantal concerns. There is also the issue of NAFTA and the world trade oranization. I don't know if we are alowed to give it free to Canadains but charge Americans for it. As a bare minium we would need to re-negotiate the trade agrements first.

I think not

#23

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Sixty percent of your freshwater gets dumped into the oceans. If you export a fraction of that water, to regions that need it, what did you lose? It's being dumped anyway.

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#24

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Sixty percent of your freshwater gets dumped into the oceans. If you export a fraction of that water, to regions that need it, what did you lose? It's being dumped anyway.

That sounds perfectly reasonable, but rivers are supposed to run into the ocean. The Colorado river used to flow majestically to the Gulf of California. So much water has been diverted for agriculture and human needs that the river is reduced to a trickle by the time it makes it to the Gulf and there is still a growing water shortage

Canada's fresh water from snow melt is going down every year. If we build water pipelines to the U.S., the demand will keep growing and in a few years we will be short of water, and then what?

Curiosity

#25

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

What then Juan?

Your dreams will be realized.

#juan

No Party Affiliation

#26

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

What then Juan?

Your dreams will be realized.

Oh, do you have something to add to the discussion? I guess not...

Curiosity

#27

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

I have much to add Juan however it would be a waste of space and my time trying to outdo your bias. Fortunately there are others who are willing and concerned for me to discuss and read up on this issue without having to navigate around the usual territorial peeing-posts as you set up.

Last edited by Curiosity; Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:15 PM..

I think not

#28

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

That sounds perfectly reasonable, but rivers are supposed to run into the ocean. The Colorado river used to flow majestically to the Gulf of California. So much water has been diverted for agriculture and human needs that the river is reduced to a trickle by the time it makes it to the Gulf and there is still a growing water shortage

Canada's fresh water from snow melt is going down every year. If we build water pipelines to the U.S., the demand will keep growing and in a few years we will be short of water, and then what?

Look, it's your water, quite frankly I really don't care what you do with it. It just seems silly to me you are willing to export oil ( a non renewable resource) and not water (a renewable resource). The amount of water on earth hasn't changed in billions of years.
Besides, as I mentioned earlier, it's not about draining your lakes and rivers, it's about capturing water that will end up going into the ocean anyway. You can literally ship water all over the world.

s243a

#29

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by I think not

Besides, as I mentioned earlier, it's not about draining your lakes and rivers, it's about capturing water that will end up going into the ocean anyway. You can literally ship water all over the world.

The clean water is not the water at the mouth of the saint laurnce.

L Gilbert

No Party Affiliation

#30

Re: Canada, going down American Drains

Apr 25th, 2007

Water is a renewable resource. Unfortunately, fresh water isn't all as plentiful as you'd think.

--

--

--

There are more than 3.26E20 gallons of water on Earth. Less than three percent of all this water is freshwater and of that amount, more than two-thirds is locked up in ice caps and glaciers. Some of that is turning into seawater. A large portion of what is left isn't accessible. About 0.014% of the water on the planet can be used for drinking.

Quote:

Increases in world population means increased water use and less availability on a per capita basis. In 1989 there was some 9,000 cubic metres of freshwater per person available for human use. By 2000, this had dropped to 7,800 cubic metres and it is expected to plummet to 5,100 cubic metres per person by 2025, when the global population is projected to reach 8 billion.
People already use over half the world's accessible freshwater now, and may use nearly three-quarters by 2025. Over the twentieth century, the world annual water use has grown from about 300 km3 to about 2,100 km3

- --

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