William Shawcross: US and UK were right to invade Iraq

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
48,412
1,668
113
'Disaster if coalition defeated


Welcome: A group of Iraqi children with a British soldier.




By WILLIAM SHAWCROSS
Writer, broadcaster
and commentator

March 07, 2007

IT is very fashionable and easy to declare that Iraq is a disaster, that George Bush and Tony Blair are morons or knaves and that we must get out quick.

Fashionable, easy and WRONG.

The truth is that if we keep faith with the Iraqi people, the improvement of their country should and will be Blair’s greatest legacy.

When I think of Iraq today, my mind goes back to Cambodia and Vietnam in 1975. In the early 1970s I covered the Vietnam war for The Sunday Times.

Most Western reporters there (including myself) believed that the US could not or should not win the war against the Communists.

Similarly today, hatred (and it really is that) of Bush and Blair dominates perceptions far too much — particularly in the BBC.

After the Communist victories in 1975 I went and talked to refugees in Thailand. The Cambodians had horrific stories of people with glasses being killed as “intellectuals” and of “bourgeois” babies being beaten to death against trees. They were true.

More than a million people were killed in Cambodia by the Communist Khmer Rouge.

In Vietnam and Laos, the Communists created cruel labour camps and millions of people fled, mostly by boat and mostly to the US, which they have enriched ever since. Iraq is often now compared to the “disaster of Vietnam”. Not so quick.

Lee Kuan Yew, the former Prime Minister of Singapore, argues that because America was in Vietnam so long, other south-east Asian countries had time to improve the lives of their people enough to resist communism — which they could not have done had America let Vietnam go Communist in the 1960s.

The long view has to be applied to Iraq also. The overthrow of Saddam was the correct thing to do — and it was something only the US could have done. For all the horrors extremist Sunnis and Shias are inflicting on each other today, the US rid the world of the dictator who killed more Muslims than anyone else.

Armchair pundits love to dismiss the US effort in terms of abuses at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison. That was not typical.

Evidence of the bravery, decency and sacrifice of American soldiers is not covered enough — nor is the courage of millions of Iraqis. Of course, huge mistakes have been made by the US and British-led coalition.

That does not mean the underlying effort is wrong.

Bush’s new strategy is to “surge” thousands of extra US troops into Baghdad to protect the population better. It may be too little but, rather than abusing Bush and Blair, we should all hope it is not too late.

There are hopeful signs. The Iraqi military is ever more competent. Legislation on dividing crucial oil revenues between the Sunni, Shia and Kurdish areas is now agreed.

Most Iraqis still seem to desire a united country. They do not want extremist violence to destroy their lives.

What should terrify us is this: The result of an American defeat in Iraq would be even worse than in Vietnam.

As the al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, Musab al-Zarqawi, said before he was fortunately killed by a US air strike: “The shedding of Muslim blood is allowed in order to disrupt the greater evil of disrupting Jihad.”

If Iraq collapses, such nihilist killing will spread. As in Cambodia, mass murder is the only alternative to what the US-led coalition is trying to achieve under its UN mandate.

Bush and Blair still deserve support. Thanks to the sacrifice of young American and British soldiers, and to the courage of millions of ordinary Iraqis, the country can still have a better future — if we remain committed. Remember 1975.

thesun.co.uk
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
William Shawcross represents the strain of journalism best representing the diseased thinking of apologists, quizzlings, and cowards, it reinforces the need to have DNA tested early in life to ensure that food and water is not wasted on completely useless specimens who will contribute nothing to the spieces.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Nonsense, I have the displeasure of reading your extremist posts every single day. The only satisfaction I get is that you are dead wrong 90% of the time.

Have a nice day, some of us have to work. :wave:
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
I think not

C'mon now ITN...think positively....

America can absolutely afford more money to secure its "goal" of freeing the people of Iraq from an oppressive regime....more weapons, more black bags more media coverage.... what's a few thousand body bags and billions of dollars against the perception that America funded and supported Saddam Hussein for years....that it empowered the Butcher of Baghdad to foment mayhem?

Think of all the masons who will gain employment building another wall in Washington DC....there's plenty of room in the city and black walls are so fashionable why would Americans be content to have only one!?

Raytheon, General Electric, the Carlyle Group, Haliburton et al. can swim in an ocean of taxpayer money while developing even more exotic and deadlier weapons...for self-defense of course....

Reserves and the National Guard will enjoy tremendous increases in enrolement no doubt as young Americans celebrate yet another example of the willingness of America to sacrifice its children to the greater cause of ......oh yeah ensuring the freedom of Iraqis and other foreign nationals to replace the Hispanic pool cleaners and taxi cab drivers who will be sent back to Mexico as the United States acts on its ethnic cleansing policies.....or from a different vantage point, demonstrates to the world that the United States while embarassed to come out so strongly in support of freeing the Iraqi people will find other "urgent necessity" like stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction....to proscecute the cleansing of hundreds of thousands of men women and children in primitive lands ....

How could America miss this opportunity to demonstrate to the world that there is a need for nations to increase military spending and build atomic arsenals to protect themselves....using American know-how at weapons production and nuclear enrichment of course...there's money in them there philosophical gray areas....

The United States has an shot at the brass ring...to prove to the world that the League of Nations and the United Nations and International law...Geneva Conventions etc...are wholly unnecessary and every nation can follow the example provided by the U.S., developing strategies of unilateralism and pre-emptive "defense".....the complexion of the world will be far more peaceful when everyone is convinced that economic tribalism and consumerism at any cost...is much more profitable and satisfyiiing than limiting one's empire building....

No one could miss the message sent by the United States that anyone who even dare thinks to entertain the possibility that the sovereign state of Israel/America will stand by when the opportunity presents itself to establish a heirachical strata and climate of moral ambivalence...with Israel and America calling the shots of course....

Perhaps one day when China builds sufficient commerical power and believes that the credo of "pre-emptive defense" combined with unilateral military intervention despite international conventions to the contrary that the west is indeed the most suitable target for their application of the newly defined moral lessons exhibited by the United States....

Nothing but sunshine and roses as far as the eye can see....

It's a win-win for everyone....

Think positively ITN....don't be gloomy....war can be continued as long as America doesn't run out of allies like Britain and Canada with enough sons and daughters to die preserving the cash-flow dynamics of the United States....

War is good right?

Particularly when you can have the world forget history...and paint a picture of altruism and good deeds...
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Nonsense, I have the displeasure of reading your extremist posts every single day. The only satisfaction I get is that you are dead wrong 90% of the time.

Have a nice day, some of us have to work. :wave:

Hey ITN, remember grade school, (it takes one to know one) haha. What's it like to stare out on a virtual sea of enemys?Watching the love of your life disentigrate in front of your eyes must be hard. I expect to find you someday hiding in an old coal bin in the dark trembling in the corner clutching your little bag of gold, don't be afraid I'm not a vengeful man I'll bring you back to my villa and you can live in the stables and do some honest work for me.Your posts lead me to believe you'd be good with a dung fork and make a fairly decent footman, a nice waistcoat and a powdered wig and you'd become a fetching domestic servant. We'ed have to do something about your petulant mouth though, nothing the lash couldn't cure I'll wager.All kidding aside I hope this note finds you in good health despite your flagging spirits.I'll pray for your swift deliverance from the agony of defeat. Allah be with you.

Extremely Yours
D Beaver
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
What do the articles have to do with your declaration? And as far as I'm aware no war has ever been started for no reason. If you could use a few more words I could understand where you're coming from or going to. As far as I can tell you object to one authors gain from war. I'm not familiar with his work by the way. Blackleafs man promotes war because it protects the statis-quo and he's loath to give up power.So do you treat each equaly or do you only object to the one? And if no-one did the work how would we form any opinion at all?:wave:
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
William Shawcross represents the strain of journalism best representing the diseased thinking of apologists, quizzlings, and cowards, it reinforces the need to have DNA tested early in life to ensure that food and water is not wasted on completely useless specimens who will contribute nothing to the spieces.

If you are going to talk idiocy like this, at least do me the favour of removing the great man as your avatar.........you disgrace him.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
847
113
69
Saint John, N.B.
In my opinion, this bit from eric Margolis says it all:

During the 14 months he ran Iraq, Bremer committed two enormous follies. He dissolved Iraq’s army and police, then fired all government employees who were members of Saddam’s Ba’athist Party. Iraq was left without security forces or functioning government. Chaos ensued.
For a few hundred million, the U.S. could have hired much of Saddam’s army, security forces and bureaucrats. Instead, the Cheney/Bush administration declared them outlaws and began using Shia militias and death squads to fight the Sunni resistance, triggering today’s ghastly Sunni-Shia civil war.

The Americans are big on idealism......exactly like a certain toothy rodent above. The most successful invaders simply insert themselves at the top of already existing institutions of societal control...........the Yanks wouldn't do that, due to the unsavoury nature of much of Iraq's political infrastructure. Good on them. But they went too far.....and threw out the baby with the bathwater.

The only solution is to establish a strict order in Iraq..........with whatever number of troops are necessary.

BTW, the other thing totally ignored in the media is the stability and openess of the Kurdish north of Iraq.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
If you are going to talk idiocy like this, at least do me the favour of removing the great man as your avatar.........you disgrace him.

Why do you let your annus speak for you Colpy? If you'd keep that boundless orifice of your's in check you'd have more friends.I may be a digrace to the great man but you surely exist as a prime example of the empty headed yardape he described in much of his work.:laughing7:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
In my opinion, this bit from eric Margolis says it all:



The Americans are big on idealism......exactly like a certain toothy rodent above. The most successful invaders simply insert themselves at the top of already existing institutions of societal control...........the Yanks wouldn't do that, due to the unsavoury nature of much of Iraq's political infrastructure. Good on them. But they went too far.....and threw out the baby with the bathwater.

The only solution is to establish a strict order in Iraq..........with whatever number of troops are necessary.

BTW, the other thing totally ignored in the media is the stability and openess of the Kurdish north of Iraq.

Hey Colpy that white cane you're flailing about with points to the big flaw in your reasoning. Those highly successful invaders you think you understand inserted themselves into the American institution of control decades ago, the blind have that excuse though.:laughing7:
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
The only solution is to establish a strict order in Iraq..........with whatever number of troops are necessary.

BTW, the other thing totally ignored in the media is the stability and openess of the Kurdish north of Iraq.

Order had already been established under Saddam Hussien.....you remember him the guy without WMD's and links to 9/11.

The Kurdish North is a disaster waiting to happen.....just ask the Turks.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
7,815
65
48
54
Oshawa
What do the articles have to do with your declaration? And as far as I'm aware no war has ever been started for no reason. If you could use a few more words I could understand where you're coming from or going to. As far as I can tell you object to one authors gain from war. I'm not familiar with his work by the way. Blackleafs man promotes war because it protects the statis-quo and he's loath to give up power.So do you treat each equaly or do you only object to the one? And if no-one did the work how would we form any opinion at all?:wave:


I'm sorry, I guess I should have been more specific.

They went to war on the stated reasons which proved to be bull crap.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Order had already been established under Saddam Hussien.....you remember him the guy without WMD's and links to 9/11.

The Kurdish North is a disaster waiting to happen.....just ask the Turks.

Colpy cannot do that Avro. His poverty of objectivity dictates that every consideration he formulates is from the Washington perspective, the center of his tiny little universe.:wave:
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
Yeah, the stronger the Kurdish area gets, the more threat there is to Turkey, that's a fact (not so much the "threat" part, but that Turkey is NOT happy about it and has on several occasions told the US that they may in fact have to begin atacking into Iraq to keep things under control in that region)