Por Que ? Why ? IRAQ SURGE

[jimmoyer]

I'm a Republican Conservative and I'm wondering whether this surge of troops is going
to accomplish anything.

I understand the rationale to try one more time, rather than give up.
I understand that the righteous world doesn't give a damn about really giving Iraq a 2nd chance,
prefering instead to luxuriate yet again in American foolishness, when helping us fix the
problem we created might be a more noble cause benefiting the Iraqi.

But now I'm seeing more troops go to Baghdad to do what ??

With theShi-ite Madi Sadr army sitting on the 50 yard line eating popcorn watching us do
their dirty work and kill Sunni butt ?

I dunno.

Prosecution of the aftermath has been ridden with hubris, stupidity, pride --- an inability
to listen to separating the idiotic criticism from the important and worthy criticism.

 

[annabattler]

As someone who marched against the American "pre-emptive" attack on Iraq, there's a mean=spirited part of me that wants to say "told you so".
Why would anyone think that insurgents would not take advantage of the destabilized Iraq?Particularly given the fact that both Britain and the U.S. had been constantly bombing Iraq since 1990.
I'm not sure there's any way for the U.S. to pull out of Iraq gracefully. I do know I resent the president's "implication" that somehow the final outcome will be the fault of the Iraqi regime,that somehow they "failed" to gain a foothold.
I don't think a "surge" will do much,except perhaps forestall the end of this most ill-advised incursion.
If I were an Iraqi youth, and all I had known was bombings,war and death, I'm quite sure my psyche would be malformed, and I'm quite sure my rage would be directed at the Americans.
There will be a huge turmoil in Iraq for generations to come.

 

[s_lone]

I'm a Republican Conservative and I'm wondering whether this surge of troops is going
to accomplish anything.

I understand the rationale to try one more time, rather than give up.
I understand that the righteous world doesn't give a damn about really giving Iraq a 2nd chance,
prefering instead to luxuriate yet again in American foolishness, when helping us fix the
problem we created might be a more noble cause benefiting the Iraqi.

But now I'm seeing more troops go to Baghdad to do what ??

With theShi-ite Madi Sadr army sitting on the 50 yard line eating popcorn watching us do
their dirty work and kill Sunni butt ?

I dunno.

Prosecution of the aftermath has been ridden with hubris, stupidity, pride --- an inability
to listen to separating the idiotic criticism from the important and worthy criticism.

I feel sorry for you, the citizens of the USA and especially the citizens of Irak for the mess going on right now.

Why did your government act as it did in the first place? What was so urgent to bang into Irak like a fool without even taking time to think of the consequences? Why didn't your government take the time to really expose the Irak problem to the international community and take the time to organize a true coalition of the willing that wouldn't have been a joke? What happened to the US population for it to accept such an irresponsible behavior from their own government? Why did your people reelect in 2004 a government that clearly had no form of wisdom?

Why do I and many many others in the world think that your government is filled with greedy assholes with no humanitarians intentions whatsoever?

 

[darkbeaver]

I'm a Republican Conservative and I'm wondering whether this surge of troops is going
to accomplish anything.

I understand the rationale to try one more time, rather than give up.
I understand that the righteous world doesn't give a damn about really giving Iraq a 2nd chance,
prefering instead to luxuriate yet again in American foolishness, when helping us fix the
problem we created might be a more noble cause benefiting the Iraqi.

But now I'm seeing more troops go to Baghdad to do what ??

With theShi-ite Madi Sadr army sitting on the 50 yard line eating popcorn watching us do
their dirty work and kill Sunni butt ?

I dunno.


Prosecution of the aftermath has been ridden with hubris, stupidity, pride --- an inability
to listen to separating the idiotic criticism from the important and worthy criticism.

Important worthy criticism according to your posts supports continued starvation and murder of Iraqis, all to secure the mythical nirvana of American style democracy.

What part of continued air strikes and house to house factional sectarian cleansing constitutes a second chance. The window of oportunity for a second chance for Iraq closed in 1991.

America cannot simultaneously be the disease and the cure.:wave:

 

[jimmoyer]

America cannot simultaneously be the disease and the cure.
-----------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------

Yep. That looks to be the situation.

While everybody finds it more important to gloat and pretend they care about Iraq
they watch us fail and they watch Iraq go down in flames.

Moralistic Voyeurs.

No burdens.

 

[darkbeaver]

America cannot simultaneously be the disease and the cure.
-----------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------

Yep. That looks to be the situation.

While everybody finds it more important to gloat and pretend they care about Iraq
they watch us fail and they watch Iraq go down in flames.

Moralistic Voyeurs.

No burdens.

You presume to much about what we feel about Iraq. You are blind to reality, you have destroyed Iraq and destroyed it for generations. What kind of care includes one and a half million dead men women and children and two-hundred thousand unregistered tortured prisoners.

 

[tracy]

America cannot simultaneously be the disease and the cure.
-----------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------

Yep. That looks to be the situation.

While everybody finds it more important to gloat and pretend they care about Iraq
they watch us fail and they watch Iraq go down in flames.

Moralistic Voyeurs.

No burdens.

In all fairness, what specific action do you expect them to take to fix things over there?

 

[annabattler]

One of the first things the American administration could do would be to accept total responsibility for creating this dire situation in the first place.....no more "inadequate Iraqi support",no more finger-pointing,no more deflections as to who is truly responsible.
I think the American media have played a huge part in this war....newspapers and television there are still not reflecting the true situation in Iraq,are still not showing the American people the results of their pre-emptive attack(the bombings of homes,the massive killings of innocent Iraqis,the huge migrations out of the country by Iraqis,the loss of infrastructure throughout the country).
There will be no graceful exit....there cannot be.
I think that once the exit is effected,the U.S. should be on the financial hook to help Iraq repair the damage they caused.
And,I think the American public should be asking some serious questions...exactly what direction do they want their country to follow, when should the U.S. become "involved" in another country's affairs,and finally how can they best repair the formerly proud international image the U.S. used to hold.

 

[Curiosity]

AnnaBattler

Are you suggesting the United States become an isolationist nation?

Gee they are still taking it in the shorts during the pre- WWI and WWII days over that reluctance to
sign on to the European conflicts.

Can't please anyone it seems.

It would be great to spend all of the military money on a peaceful nation, everyone having the best of everything, nobody in poverty, children well educated, jobs a-plenty, families secure in wonderful neighborhoods, products from the global trade with friendly nations.....the military families would like to have their loved ones home too.... from all around the world doing the work for nations who don't spend their own money on their own protection..... taking up the U.N. "cause" which we now know is
been totally impotent...

Does anyone actually think war is the first choice???? Get real..... Why would Americans want to stop all the great lives we enjoy here and spend money on bullets!

You have avoided the mention of all the rebuilding going on in Iraq - but that is natural since most Canadians never hear the truth in the media - cut off from anything pro U.S. as you are.

The mistakes made were a denial prior to 9/11 that there was extreme terrorist activity in the world..... and refusal to take part in its eradication.... then 9/11 (should we have done a "Clintonian" turn the other cheek offer and pretend it didn't happen?)

And the discovery we have a president who can't run a successful baseball team let alone a nation.....

But it has given so many Canadians such patriotism....and sadly the pathological ones who reek in hatred of the United States - we have given you new life, a new cause, a new feeding frenzy....(not you Anna)... but many others who are not as bright as you.

You are welcome.

 

[darkbeaver]

One of the first things the American administration could do would be to accept total responsibility for creating this dire situation in the first place.....no more "inadequate Iraqi support",no more finger-pointing,no more deflections as to who is truly responsible.
I think the American media have played a huge part in this war....newspapers and television there are still not reflecting the true situation in Iraq,are still not showing the American people the results of their pre-emptive attack(the bombings of homes,the massive killings of innocent Iraqis,the huge migrations out of the country by Iraqis,the loss of infrastructure throughout the country).
There will be no graceful exit....there cannot be.
I think that once the exit is effected,the U.S. should be on the financial hook to help Iraq repair the damage they caused.
And,I think the American public should be asking some serious questions...exactly what direction do they want their country to follow, when should the U.S. become "involved" in another country's affairs,and finally how can they best repair the formerly proud international image the U.S. used to hold.

There is no way that the USA will accept financial or moral responsibility for the war, to do so would open the flood gates of litigation and national self examination that no nation with Americas record of intervention could survive.The list and range of indictments would overwhelm any system, for example the media, industry, financial institutions, government and individuals all play and have played parts many US military interventions, all of them would be subject to charges under various international treatys and agreements. You can imagine the scope of such an admission. The United States could not function in it's present form after such an exercise, in other words the country depends on exemption from international law, that exemption is maintained by military and economic extortion.

 

[annabattler]

I suspect there are a few Canadians who are anti-American(but they're likely also anti-black,anti-immigration,anti whatever).As a group,we Canadians tend to be very politically correct,very circumspect in what we say...heaven forbid we should hurt someone's feelings,lol.I also suspect some people who post on the internet say things here they would never say to anyone's face.
I don't think America should follow an isolationist policy. Since the Cold War ended,the United States became the sole holder of power(military and financial) on our small planet. Much was expected from the United States, much responsibility has fallen on U.S. , with appeals from all corners of the world for assistance...either humanitarian or military.
I don't think any of us are blind to the fact that the U.S. is still in the business of doing good works, of their being supportive to less fortunate nations,of their being available to offer assistance in natural catastrophes.
And I think the U.S. has had to take some time to get used to its' new role as "top of the heap".
I think we'd all like to see a United States that uses its' power wisely, with some sense of forethought,with some sense of future implications from their actions....and this was NOT the case in Iraq.

 

[Curiosity]

Thank you Anna

It is good to know those of us who contribute to world peace and prosperity in many forms are appreciated by some in other nations.

Whether the U.S. is at the "top" of whatever we measure success by these days, I hardly think
the price of the slain is worth being a leader in any demonstration of power.

 

[jimmoyer]

There is no way that the USA will accept financial or moral responsibility for the war, to do so would open the flood gates of litigation and national self examination that no nation with Americas record of intervention could survive...
--------------------------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------------------

Just overlook the fact that there are more Americans who exist, who oppose the occupation
in Iraq, than what constitutes the entire Canadian population.

And if you haven't seen the Pentagon Papers and the Watergate Trials, and all the
C-SPAN Congress committees constantly showing YOU IN PARTICULAR our dirty laundry,
then perhaps the storyline, the zeitgeist in your head makes you blind.

If only we could have a 24-7 cable news network documenting the daily
national lives of North Korea and Saddam's Iraq.
Otherwise, I find myself quite in your corner ---your dark cynical corner ----especially
how the Bush administration egotistically ruled out all important warnings and criticism.

The only people who are still half way happy is the defacto Republic of Kurdistan.

 

[mabudon]

I think the surge is cos them damn ingrate Iraks (sic) are not signing the Hydrocarbon Laws cos they don't "appreciate the sacrifice the US has made in helping them out"

That's the most likely explanation- if the US were to pull out, that stupid made-in-the-USA "constitution" would be shredded to ribbons before the dust settled, and the Oil industry could be re-nationalized, the way they had it before this whole BS "liberation" began

 

[darkbeaver]

I suspect there are a few Canadians who are anti-American(but they're likely also anti-black,anti-immigration,anti whatever).As a group,we Canadians tend to be very politically correct,very circumspect in what we say...heaven forbid we should hurt someone's feelings,lol.I also suspect some people who post on the internet say things here they would never say to anyone's face.


We should qualify Anti-Americanism to specify exactly what anti-Americans are most anti about.
Your suggested likely subjects bear little resemblance to American policy which do invoke Anti-American sentement, I would say without hesitation those American activitys which perenially draw objection from critics are war, corporate power, capitalism and the crimes associated with each. I suggest that being anti-american is not a point of origin but a conclusion arrived at through consideration of American performance in those areas.If you believe in the power of the United States in these areas (and that power is an accepted fact) then you cannot exonerate America based on its self-declared benevolence rather than its demonstratable performance.Simply put, American inherant benevolence is a matter of national media mythology while American performance is a matter of physical reality. You are what you do not what you say.:wave:

 

[darkbeaver]

There is no way that the USA will accept financial or moral responsibility for the war, to do so would open the flood gates of litigation and national self examination that no nation with Americas record of intervention could survive...
--------------------------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------------------

Just overlook the fact that there are more Americans who exist, who oppose the occupation
in Iraq, than what constitutes the entire Canadian population.

And if you haven't seen the Pentagon Papers and the Watergate Trials, and all the
C-SPAN Congress committees constantly showing YOU IN PARTICULAR our dirty laundry,
then perhaps the storyline, the zeitgeist in your head makes you blind.

If only we could have a 24-7 cable news network documenting the daily
national lives of North Korea and Saddam's Iraq.
Otherwise, I find myself quite in your corner ---your dark cynical corner ----especially
how the Bush administration egotistically ruled out all important warnings and criticism.

The only people who are still half way happy is the defacto Republic of Kurdistan.

I agree with you, the total number of Americans who oppose militarism exceeds Canadas total population many times over and at the same time it represents a majority of Americans and has for many years, this in itself highlights the problem perfectly, no fix exists in the present political system, the switch from Dem to Repub has never negativly affected the ability of the coporate security complex to wage war on the planet or it's abuse of the American citizen. So I ask you in all sincerity, what are we to do when we know voting will not change the situation when those who frame the debate effectivly control the outcome? Most of the information I have based my position on is American from Americans and represents American perspective, that said it has failed to prevail and prevent the present dismal situation of today. Many of these same thinkers have described America as a failed state, why should I have a different perspective from the best brains in America? Dayly 24/7 exposure of pre occupation Iraq and NorthKorea would do nothing but increase Anti-American sentiment, America can be held responsible for the conditions in both, remember past interventions and policy have adversly affected today. Forget Bush, he is not the problem, the problem is the system. You can't blame Bush for every policy of the last fifty years , he's a puppet of the corporate security complex, and that's the power in America not the citizen:wave:.

 

[darkbeaver]

That same corporate security complex prevails globally not just in America, however it would be stupid to try and affect change by attacking the lowest common denominator.:wave:

 

[lieexpsr]

Not only is the current war based on lies and obfuscations which have now been proven to be nothing more, it is my opinion that the first Gulf War was exactly the same. Is anyone aware of the justifications for the Gulf War now known to be based on untrue propaganda and demonizing of Iraq? IMO it would be a useful exercize to go back to the beginning and discuss those lies because all aggression against Iraq is necessarily based on those lies. Would Canada and many other nations have taken part in the Gulf War had we known the real facts at the time.

I suggest that many governments of countries which took part in the Gulf War now do know the facts and that may have had a lot to do with the reasons why so many countries refused to take part a second time. I would also suggest that we were burned in the same manner by taking part in the Kosovo war. Much discussion is required in order to elaborate on all these issues and I am wondering if anyone who has studied the situations of the Gulf War and the Kosovo war is on the same wavelength with me.

 

[jimmoyer]

Is anyone aware of the justifications for the Gulf War now known to be based on untrue propaganda and demonizing of Iraq? ....I would also suggest that we were burned in the same manner by taking part in the Kosovo war.
-----------------------------------------lieexpsr----------------------------------------------------


The First Gulf War was to repulse Saddam Hussein out of his invasion of Kuwait.

Big reason.

Simple.

Of course none of the neighboring nations respect Kuwait's status, but they certainly
don't want to allow a precedent of invasion go without a response, n'est pas ???

And you'll remember the condition of Japan and Saudi Arabia to pay for the war
and for European nations to join in the 500,000 soldier coalition was a demand we NOT
go to Baghdad, but rather just repulse Saddam from Kuwait, ONLY, despite all the Scub
missles lobbied into Israel and Saudi Arabia.



And Kosovo ???


Kosovo was turning into another ethnic cleansing situation.

Also US waited almost 9 years until enterring the Yugoslavian wars which began in 1991
with Slovenia and then Croatia breaking off.

 

[darkbeaver]

US debt was up 10.1% to $4.085 trillion 58.8% of all the credit issued globally last year.The US is producing more debt than the rest of the world combined. It must control the global economy, it must succeed in the ME, it must control both Iraq and Iran or it looses everything, the only method it has is it's military machine. Despite the coming election no policy change is possible, the debt controls the policy and its direction.The US will use nukes.