Onward Christian Soldiers Exit Stage Left !!

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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SPIEGEL ONLINE - January 10, 2007, 05:09 PM
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html
FIGHTING FOR THEIR SURVIVAL

A Christian Exodus from the Arab World

By Amira El Ahl, Daniel Steinvorth, Volkhard Windfuhr and Bernhard Zand
Violence, terrorism and the Islamists' growing influence pose a threat to Christianity in the Middle East. In some countries, members of an unpopular Christian minority are already fighting for their survival -- or fleeing for their lives.

REUTERS​
Christians praying in Syria



In New Baghdad, the driver of a minibus, a Shiite named Ali, set out at 7 a.m. on the last Sunday before Christmas. A few hours earlier he had received a call on his mobile phone with instructions to pick up five passengers for a long trip outside the city. His first passenger, he had been told, would tell him who the other passengers were and what their destination would be. He was also told not to mention a word to anyone.


The first passenger was a 24-year-old man named Raymon, who was sitting on his suitcase a few blocks away. He directed Ali through the city's dreary east side, where having a Shiite as a driver is a smart move -- first to the Karrada district, where Amir and Fariz boarded the bus, and then to Selakh, where Wassim and Qarram were waiting. By 9 a.m., Ali had picked up all of his passengers and the bus left Baghdad and began traveling to the northeast -- for the 350-kilometer (218-mile) journey to Kurdistan, the only part of Iraq that is anything close to safe.

The five young men traveling in Ali's red Kia were the last seminary students at the Chaldean Catholic Babel College to leave Baghdad. Four priests have been abducted since mid-August, and two others were murdered. Father Sami, the director of the seminary, was kidnapped in early December. The community managed to raise $75,000 to buy his freedom, but after hesitating for weeks, Emmanuel III, the Chaldean patriarch, decided to withdraw the teaching institutions of his community from Baghdad. He ordered the evacuation of the city's four Catholic churches, the Hurmis monastery and the college in the city's Dura neighborhood, but chose to remain behind in the city as the lonely shepherd of a rapidly shrinking congregation.

A history that traces back to the Ottoman Empire
Present-day Iraq was still part of the Ottoman Empire when Iraq's Catholics opened their first priest seminary. They moved it from Mosul to Baghdad 45 years ago and, in 1991, untouched by then dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, they founded the Babel College for Philosophy and Theology in Dora. It would only exist there for 15 years, a flicker in the history of the Chaldean people. "I don't know when or whether we will ever return," says Bashar Varda, the man Father Sami has entrusted with running the seminary.

Christians have lived in the Arab world for the past 2,000 years. They were there before the Muslims. Their current predicament is not the first crisis they have faced and, compared to the massacres of the past, it is certainly not the most severe in Middle Eastern Christianity. But in some countries, it could be the last one. Even the pope, in his Christmas address, mentioned the "small flock" of the faithful in the Middle East, who he said are forced to live with "little light and too much shadow," and demanded that they be given more rights.
There are no reliable figures on the size of Christian minorities in the Middle East. This is partly attributable to an absence of statistics, and partly to the politically charged nature of producing such statistics in the first place. Lebanon's last census was taken 74 years ago. Saddam Hussein, a Sunni who is himself part of a minority, was fundamentally opposed to compiling denominational statistics. In Egypt the number of Christians fluctuates between five and 12 million, depending on who is counting.
DER SPIEGEL​
Graphic: Christians in the Arab World



Given the lack of hard numbers, demographers must rely on estimates, whereby Christians make up about 40 percent of the population in Lebanon, less than 10 percent in Egypt and Syria, two to four percent in Jordan and Iraq and less than one percent in North Africa. But the major political changes that are currently affecting the Middle East have led to shrinking Christian minorities. In East Jerusalem, where half of the population was Christian until 1948, the year of the first Arab-Israeli war, less than five percent of residents are Christian today. In neighboring Jordan, the number of Christians was reduced by half between the 1967 Six Day War and the 1990s. There were only 500,000 Christians still living in Iraq until recently, compared to 750,000 after the 1991 Gulf War. Wassim, one of the seminary students now fleeing to Kurdistan, estimates that half of those remaining Christians have emigrated since the 2003 US invasion, most of them in the last six months.


more:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html
 

darleneonfire

Electoral Member
Jan 12, 2007
203
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Ontario
SPIEGEL ONLINE - January 10, 2007, 05:09 PM
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,457002,00.html
FIGHTING FOR THEIR SURVIVAL

A Christian Exodus from the Arab World

By Amira El Ahl, Daniel Steinvorth, Volkhard Windfuhr and Bernhard Zand
Violence, terrorism and the Islamists' growing influence pose a threat to Christianity in the Middle East. In some countries, members of an unpopular Christian minority are already fighting for their sur2,00.html

How very sad for them, to have to leave their homes behind. We were planning a visit to the Holy Land with our church group for next year, but as a group we decided it would not be a good idea at this time. Funny that in the area of the world where Jesus himself lived, there are so few Christians.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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It's terrible to hear of the Christian troubles in the ME. What could possibly incite anti-christian sentiment? We must make a decision. Save the oil or save the Christians? Or can we save both at the same time? Surely the God of peace and love will provide the guidance systems necessary to overcome the forces of evil.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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What could possibly incite anti-christian sentiment? We must make a decision. Save the oil or save the Christians? Or can we save both at the same time? Surely the God of peace and love will provide the guidance systems necessary to overcome the forces of evil.
-------------------------------------------Darkbeaver-------------------------------------------------

Suitably dark mirth, wonderfully understated.

Could it be you hold the Christians responsible for being so unwelcomed in their native land ?
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
1,382
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What could possibly incite anti-christian sentiment? We must make a decision. Save the oil or save the Christians? Or can we save both at the same time? Surely the God of peace and love will provide the guidance systems necessary to overcome the forces of evil.
-------------------------------------------Darkbeaver-------------------------------------------------

Suitably dark mirth, wonderfully understated.

Could it be you hold the Christians responsible for being so unwelcomed in their native land ?



Jimmover never let the potatoes free, he needs to show how bad muslim are, only to justified his support for the war in ME, pathetic at the highestl level.

If i was you jimover, i would consider that 80 millions of fundamentalist moron who lives in your country as a real threath to humanity, those which your president is part of and support.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
Jimmover never let the potatoes free, he needs to show how bad muslim are, only to justified his support for the war in ME, pathetic at the highestl level.

If i was you jimover, i would consider that 80 millions of fundamentalist moron who lives in your country as a real threath to humanity, those which your president is part of and support.

Yes! Free the potatoes!!!!
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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This makes me curious. I wonder, if the situation were reversed.... a Muslim army attacking our country, Muslim worshippers here being endangered by an angry population.... would it strike the same chord in everyone who has expressed pity for these Christians?

Goodness knows that until the US stops attacking their country, Iraqi Christians will never be safe. It's unfortunate that people can't seperate the politics from the religion. But I suppose that could be viewed as Bush's fault, as he has stood and invoked God's name in his speeches regarding the war.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
This makes me curious. I wonder, if the situation were reversed.... a Muslim army attacking our country, Muslim worshippers here being endangered by an angry population.... would it strike the same chord in everyone who has expressed pity for these Christians?

Goodness knows that until the US stops attacking their country, Iraqi Christians will never be safe. It's unfortunate that people can't seperate the politics from the religion. But I suppose that could be viewed as Bush's fault, as he has stood and invoked God's name in his speeches regarding the war.

How far back into history would one have to go, before the hate and conflict between religions in the middle east is no longer blamed on the U.S.? 1774, or even earlier?

Why do people seem to think that if the U.S. wasn't there, extremist Sunni and extremist Shia would be getting along? At what point since the schism of Sunni and Shia have they ever gotten along?

Maybe it has more to do with their culture, eh? And the intolerance that extreme fundamentalism breeds among its sheeple...
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
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How far back into history would one have to go, before the hate and conflict between religions in the middle east is no longer blamed on the U.S.? 1774, or even earlier?

Why do people seem to think that if the U.S. wasn't there, extremist Sunni and extremist Shia would be getting along? At what point since the schism of Sunni and Shia have they ever gotten along?

Maybe it has more to do with their culture, eh? And the intolerance that extreme fundamentalism breeds among its sheeple...

So, because there's been strife in their country before (which you're pointing out has been mainly between Islamic sects), the current war with the US can't possibly contribute to the fact that the population is currently targetting Christians? I highly doubt that.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
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This whole situation in Iraq reminds me of Mob wars. Don Hussein is gone now, in his absence people begin fighting for power and control. This isn't a war that can be won. These people aren't ready for democracy, obviously. When AMerica is out of Iraq, whenever that is, how long do you suppose until Muqtada or someone else usurps the control...
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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This whole situation in Iraq reminds me of Mob wars. Don Hussein is gone now, in his absence people begin fighting for power and control. This isn't a war that can be won. These people aren't ready for democracy, obviously. When AMerica is out of Iraq, whenever that is, how long do you suppose until Muqtada or someone else usurps the control...
---------------------------------------------------Tonington--------------------------------

You've very right about the Mob parallel, Tonington.
Even the Hamas and Hezbollah get big points from those who receive their largesse.
Like the Mob providing people on the block a Thanksgiving Turkey winning hearts and stomachs,
so too does the Hezbollah do this buying off of people in Lebanon, and so too does Chavez
buy the hearts and minds of Boston and New York (Chicago refused). Apparently it's
propaganda value reaches westernized liberals as well. Makes people look the other way
from the 'OTHER" actions they are taking.
 

Blackleaf

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 9, 2004
48,429
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viewed as Bush's fault, as he has stood and invoked God's name in his speeches regarding the war.

Just as many Muslims, supposedly followers of the "religion of peace", say that Allah says that they are allowed to behead all non-Muslims just because they don't follow their wicked faith.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
This whole situation in Iraq reminds me of Mob wars. Don Hussein is gone now, in his absence people begin fighting for power and control. This isn't a war that can be won. These people aren't ready for democracy, obviously. When AMerica is out of Iraq, whenever that is, how long do you suppose until Muqtada or someone else usurps the control...
---------------------------------------------------Tonington--------------------------------

You've very right about the Mob parallel, Tonington.
Even the Hamas and Hezbollah get big points from those who receive their largesse.
Like the Mob providing people on the block a Thanksgiving Turkey winning hearts and stomachs,
so too does the Hezbollah do this buying off of people in Lebanon, and so too does Chavez
buy the hearts and minds of Boston and New York (Chicago refused). Apparently it's
propaganda value reaches westernized liberals as well. Makes people look the other way
from the 'OTHER" actions they are taking.

Nobody delivers more payola than Uncle Sham.Just try to add up the cost of TWOT.
Howdy JimMoyer it's a pleasure to read you again, I trust you and yours have prospered in the new YOOL 2007.May the bird of paridise fly up your arse.:wave:
 
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thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
So, because there's been strife in their country before (which you're pointing out has been mainly between Islamic sects), the current war with the US can't possibly contribute to the fact that the population is currently targetting Christians? I highly doubt that.

Where did I say that? Please highlight my post where that is stated. Maybe I missed it, but I don't even see the word Christian in my post...

On the other hand, I suppose its good that the Religion of Peace is only targetting other people because of their religion, and not their nationality or their politics...
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Nobody delivers more payola than Uncle Sham.Just try to add up the cost of TWOT.
Howdy JimMoyer it's a pleasure to read you again, I trust you and yours have prospered in the new YOOL 2007.May the bird of paridise fly up your arse.:wave:
-------------------------------------Darkbeaver---------------------------------------------

LOL, dark mirth lives especially in the spelling "misccake" for your edit reason.
Let go of the bone !!! What a long memory you have !


Darkbeaver lives !!!
 

MagnoliaApples

Electoral Member
Apr 26, 2006
383
0
16
How far back into history would one have to go, before the hate and conflict between religions in the middle east is no longer blamed on the U.S.? 1774, or even earlier?

Why do people seem to think that if the U.S. wasn't there, extremist Sunni and extremist Shia would be getting along? At what point since the schism of Sunni and Shia have they ever gotten along?

Maybe it has more to do with their culture, eh? And the intolerance that extreme fundamentalism breeds among its sheeple...


You are right with what you say. There's always been problems in the middle east - especially because of their religions - but i think we should ask ourselves Why become a part of that problem? Why did Bush do the exact same thing that they do?

He knew that by bringing Christianity into this he would be creating another thing for them to blame. Him saying that going in there to create peace and democracy was what God wanted says to me that this man is one brick short of a load and that he is using God as a ruse to sheild him and blind the rest of North America from the real motives behind all of this.

He used God to win both elections - he knew that if he could get the bible belt of America on his side he was more than half way to winning the presidency and he used God to gain approval to proceed with and conduct an illegal war. He is using God to justify his reprehensible actions.

So, he wants to show the ME a different way of life but he's resorting the same tactics that they are used too. Basically, these people have heard this BS before just from the mouths of their own past leaders and governments. So why should they react differently?

It's not like we don't know who these people are? The Bush admin knows full well how these people are going to react. They are using thier words and actions to elicit a prescribed response. It's a pavlovian technique. It's called manipulation. And the Bush admin are experts at it.

So although the ME have been at eachothers throats for ages i don't necessarily blame them for thier human natures. I am more disappointed with how we, as a North American whole, have been dealing with them and everything surrounding 9/11. Remember that? The whole reason that got us there in the first place. The Bush admin delt with it like a bunch of 3 year olds and i really feel that it doesn't take a genius to point out that they should've know that they, the ME, were going to react this way!!!

So really, when you look at it, who are the idiots?
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
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Where did I say that? Please highlight my post where that is stated. Maybe I missed it, but I don't even see the word Christian in my post...

"How far back into history would one have to go, before the hate and conflict between religions in the middle east is no longer blamed on the U.S.?"

was what you said in response to my post. excuse me for thinking that you were trying to blame the current situation strictly on past conflict and excuse the war as being responsible at all. Sure, you didn't use the word Christian, but you were replying to a post that directly referenced what was happening to the Christians in Iraq. Perhaps if you don't want your reply to be taken within the context of a post, you might refrain from quoting it in your reply.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
27,780
285
83
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Just as many Muslims, supposedly followers of the "religion of peace", say that Allah says that they are allowed to behead all non-Muslims just because they don't follow their wicked faith.

Okay, so you've picked out one sentence from the post and removed it from the context in which it was used.... basically resaying everything I was musing on in the beginning of that post. what was your point exactly?
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
Well, Now they are really hitting us where it hurts...


Saudis May Ban Letter ‘X’

A group of Islamic clergy in Saudi Arabia has condemned the letter "X” because of its similarity to a hated banned symbol – the cross.
The Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, which has the ultimate say in all legal, civil and governance matters in the kingdom, issued a fatwa, or religious edict, against the "X.”

It came in response to a Ministry of Trade query about whether a Saudi businessman could be granted trademark protection for a new service with the English name "Explorer.”
The request from the businessman, Amru Mohammad Faisal, was turned down.

"Experts who examined the English word ‘explorer’ were struck by how suspicious that ‘X’ appeared,” Youssef Ibrahim writes in the New York Sun.

"In a kingdom where Friday preachers routinely refer to Christians as pigs and infidel crusaders, even a twisted cross ranks as an abomination.”

In response to the turndown, Faisal wrote an article that appeared on several Arabian Web sites, sarcastically suggesting that the authorities might consider banning the "plus” sign in mathematics because of its similarity to the cross. Among the commission’s earlier edicts is the 1974 fatwa declaring that the Earth is flat.

So, I guess the war is lost. What on (the flat) earth will we do without the "x".
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
1,509
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Great Satan
"How far back into history would one have to go, before the hate and conflict between religions in the middle east is no longer blamed on the U.S.?"

was what you said in response to my post. excuse me for thinking that you were trying to blame the current situation strictly on past conflict and excuse the war as being responsible at all. Sure, you didn't use the word Christian, but you were replying to a post that directly referenced what was happening to the Christians in Iraq. Perhaps if you don't want your reply to be taken within the context of a post, you might refrain from quoting it in your reply.

Here I am again, including your post in my response...

So what you are saying is that before the U.S. came on the scene, Christians were regularly meeted with cheers, and "hi-fives" on the streets of Sadr City. Is that correct?