Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

[earth_as_one]

THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS
WERE CAPTURED IN LEBANON

Technically these soldiers weren't kidnapped but arrested after Israel violated Lebanon's sovereignty.

Does this new information change anyone's opinion about Israel's right to start killing Lebanese civilians in response?

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Breach of Sovereignty

That situation presents an interesting question.

If the soldiers were indeed in the Lebanese Republic when captured, then how can it be argued to be a "kidnapping?" The State of Israel would have made a conscious decision to send soldiers into Lebanon, and I don't understand (if this is indeed the case) why the Government of Israel would think that Lebanon had no right to prosecute those who breach their laws within their own sovereign borders.

However, this would be true only where it was the Government of Lebanon that had used lawful authority to capture the soldiers. Hezbollah is not the Lebanese governing party, and therefore, I don't think that the argument applies. It's a very grey area.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes but if this story is true, it completely invalidates Israel's claim that it is defending itself.

Also, Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's democratically elected government.

The story now reads, Israeli kills hundreds of Lebanese civilians after its commandos were captured inside Lebanon while invading Lebanon's sovereignty.

Its a completely different story.

 

[FiveParadox]

If our Bloc Québécois started attacking American personnel in Canada, that couldn't be dismissed on the basis that they are part of our "government" (which in loose terms I suppose they are, but not in terms of the specific Government of Canada). (By way of example, exclusively.)

 

[mimiki]

No one has the right to will civilians

 

[gopher]

Israel's imperialistic attack was planned over a year ago:


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL&hw=kalman&sn=001&sc=1000


Interesting how the reporter indicated that such attacks are carried out in summer when students are off campus and cannot protest against Israel's imperialistic terrorism.

 

[gopher]

Time will tell as to which source is reporting the truth. The pro war Washington Post stated that Hezbollah soldiers marched into Israel to kidnap those Israeli soldiers. But then, this was the same newspaper that reported it had concrete proof that WMD were in Saddam's hands.

Still no one has addressed the fact that Israel has 2,500 Palestinian troops and that it has used torture to extort "confessions" out of them. And so, it has continued to violate UN resolutions with impunity while its apologists continue to defend its self created right to violate international law.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Posted: Jul 24th, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel's imperialistic attack was planned over a year ago:

This argument is ridiculous. You can't call Israel imperialistic because it already left the area in 2000. If the plan was to simply conquer Lebanon, don't you think it would have stayed in the area where it had alreay fought it's way into. Let's not forget just how powerful the IDF is. Israel has survived by letting her neighbours know that threats against her will be treated with severity. Israel gave back to Egypt the sinai (a hard fought military success) twice. Once in 1956 and again in the seventies when a peace deal was finally negotiated. Why would an imperialistic country give back such a prize (the land is kinda barren but so was israel, but more importantly it has oil, and offers a huge buffer zone to Israel proper) if it's ultimate goal was expansion.
Having left Gaza and southern lebanon only to have them become platforms for attack what could possibly convince them to withdraw from the west bank as was their plan.
Can someone please tell me why the UNFIL (united nations force in Lebanon) is there and what are they doing. I would be happy to see peace here, but a cease-fire isn't peace. the world community lost it's right to interfere because it has proved unwilling to hold both sides accountable. Neither the UN, nor the leabanese, nor Hizbollah's masters has done anything to bring stability here.

 

[Freethinker]

This is just anothe lie for haters like gopher and earth-as-one to propagate, this was not a crime of opportunity. This was a well planned raid by Hezbollah. Not only is this false, but it didn't even show up until recently. Initially Hezbollah was bragging about their raid across the fortified border:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071200262.html

Hezbollah said it carried out the attack about 9:05 a.m., when its fighters managed to cross the heavily fortified border near Shtula, an Israeli farming town of about 350 people. Hezbollah guerrillas fired on two Israeli army Humvees, killing three soldiers and capturing two others.

Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, said an hour passed before Israeli forces set out to recover the captives, giving Hezbollah time to smuggle them to a place he called "safe and far, far, far away." He said the attack had been planned for months and was aimed at forcing negotiations that would win the release of three Lebanese held in Israeli jails

 

[earth_as_one]

I'm just posting a link to a source which claims Hezbollah captured Israeli soldiers while they were violating Lebanon's territory. I can't claim to know if this version of events is any more accurate than the above links to American or Israeli claims that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Israel.

If the "what really happened" version of events is true, that means Hezbollah's actions weren't a "crime of opportunity" as Freethinker states or even criminal. The fact that F would interpret this information that way shows their pro-Israel bias.

Hezbollah which defends Lebanon's southern border not only had a right to attack Israeli soldiers within in Lebanon's borders, it had an obligation.

Israel has no "right" to violate the territorial integrity of other nations. Nations have a right to defend themselves from their attackers as long as that response is "proportionate".

For example, it would be a war crime if Hezbollah responded to an Israel military raid into Lebanon which did not target or harm civilians with a missile attack on Israeli civilians. But killing and capturing Israeli commandos in Lebanon would be entirely appropriate and legal response to an Israeli raid into Lebanon.

No matter which country violated the other's territory initially, as long as the targets and casualties are military, then that is an act of war, not a crime.

When one nation targets the other's civilians, then that's a war crime. Both sides are guilty of committing war crimes here, but Israel started killing civilians first and has killed 20 times as many civilians as Hezbollah.

I challenge "Freethinker" to admit that when any military, including the Israeli military, begins targeting civilians, then they are committing war crimes.

But back on topic. Can anyone find other relaible sources to back the claims that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon, not Israel?

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

Still no one has addressed the fact that Israel has 2,500 Palestinian troops and that it has used torture to extort "confessions" out of them. And so, it has continued to violate UN resolutions with impunity while its apologists continue to defend its self created right to violate international law.

Well said! There's that among a huge heap of other things. When the rest of the world, at the UN, calls on them to obey international law, it'll consistently be the US and Israel up against the rest of the world, with occasional support through history being seen from those vast, influential countries, the Federated States of Micronesia, Tuvalu, and Nauru.

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

Ohhh... and the Marshall islands too. Almost forgot that one.

Anyhow, if soldiers where around me shooting stuff up, or away from me and firing off artillery, I'd capture them too if it were possible.

edit: capture them or arrest them, whichever word you prefer.

 

[BitWhys]

34 to 1, btw.

Security officials said Monday that the fighting has killed 381 people in Lebanon, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah guerrillas, and 36 people in Israel, including 19 soldiers. Of the death toll in Israel, 17 people have been killed by Hezbollah rockets.

they've killed more Lebanese soldiers than they have Hezbollah.

 

[mabudon]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

If this proves true it should muddy the waters a great deal, I know my position on the situation will not be changed tooo much but it makes it a lot harder to defend the current actions of Israel, which IMO are already totally unjustifiable in their scope at least

And to "freethinker"- you should really request a handle change, as your statement claiming that new information is bogus if it comes out post-facto is the complete opposite of freedom of thought- a closed mind is NOT a free mind, just thought I'd point that out since I likes me the irony

 

[Freethinker]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

Having an open mind doesn't necessarily mean so open that your brain falls out.

When information comes primarily from anti-zionist blogs that should be a bit of clue to it's bias. Even Hezbollah has stated this was a raid planned for months.

For those of you ranting about Zionist/American news sources, does that include Aljazeera?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/35772526-C1A8-4599-868C-E513C4F29C9B.htm

Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack.

It says it will release them if Israel frees Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance ... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," a Hezbollah statement said.

The level of intellectual dishonesty of the anti-Zionist league here continues to rise.

 

[BitWhys]

what a big fricking mess...

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory [this is disputed - most reports show that the initial attack by Lebanese fighters on Israeli soldiers was actually inside Lebanese territory].

not post-facto

To them, it is legitimate self-defense. They back this argument by saying that Israel still controls the Sheba Farms, which are part of Lebanon, and still has Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails. Also, they add that the Israeli tank destroyed by Hezbollah, and the soldiers captured and killed on July 12, had trespassed into Lebanon's side of the border with Israel.

 

[thomaska]

I thought it was Hamas that was the elected part of the government...Arrested? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...You have to be kidding us.

Are they going to charge them and give them an attourney? Set a trial date? Whats the charge? Trespassing?

 

[Freethinker]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

I had actually seen the second link before. They are both from Sami Moubayed, a Syrian analyst. Who sounds like he is reporting on the "dispute" of his own making.

If even Aljazeera was/is reporting a cross border raid it should be some clue to that this unsupported claim is simply anti-Israeli propaganda. Use your brains folks.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers capt

I thought it was Hamas that was the elected part of the government...

Use your brains folks.

kind of sums it up.

 

[BitWhys]

when shit broke out outside the Gaza there were diagrams with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one describing what each one was.

such detail is sorely lacking in this other incident.