Apatheid History (Regan and Thatcher)

Jersay

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International relations
Main article: Foreign relations of South Africa
South Africa officially took possession of South-West Africa after it was captured from the Germans during World War I. Following the war, the Treaty of Versailles declared the territory to be a League of Nations Mandate under South African administration. South Africa formally excluded Walvis Bay from the mandate and annexed it as an enclave. The Mandate was supposed to become a United Nations Trust Territory when League of Nations Mandates were transferred to the United Nations (UN) following World War II, but the Union of South Africa refused to agree to allow the territory to begin the transition to independence. Instead it was treated as a de facto 'fifth province' of the Union. The South African government turned this mandate arrangement into a military occupation, and extended apartheid to South-West Africa — later re-named Namibia by the UN.

In 1960, South Africa's policies received international scrutiny when British Prime Minister Harold MacMillan criticised them during his Wind of Change speech in Cape Town. Weeks later, tensions came to a head in the Sharpeville Massacre resulting in more international condemnation. Soon thereafter, Verwoerd announced a referendum on whether the country should sever links with the British monarchy and become a republic instead. Verwoerd lowered the voting age for whites to 18 and included whites in South West Africa on the voter's roll. The referendum on 5 October that year asked whites "Do you support a republic for the Union?" — 52% voted 'Yes'.

As a consequence of this change of status, South Africa needed to reapply for continued membership of the Commonwealth, with which it had privileged trade links. Even though India became an independent state within the Commonwealth in 1947 it became clear that African and Asian member states would oppose South Africa due to the apartheid policies being enforced. As a result, South Africa withdrew from the Commonwealth on 31 May 1961, the day that the Republic came into existence.


Miners reading the newspaper after a riot in a mine on the Witwatersrand was brutally suppressed[edit]
Sanctions
On 6 November 1962, the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 1761, condemning South African apartheid policies. On 7 August 1963 the United Nations Security Council established a voluntary arms embargo against South Africa. Following the Soweto uprising in 1976 and its brutal suppression by the apartheid regime, the arms embargo was made mandatory by the UN Security Council on 4 November 1977 and South Africa became increasingly isolated internationally. Numerous conferences were held and the United Nations passed resolutions condemning South Africa, including the World Conference Against Racism in 1978 and 1983. A significant divestment movement started, pressuring investors to refuse to invest in South African companies or companies that did business with South Africa. South African sports teams were barred from participation in international events, and South African culture and tourism were boycotted.

After much debate, by the late 1980's the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed laws [8] placing various trade sanctions on South Africa. A divestment movement in many countries was similarly widespread, with individual cities and provinces around the world implementing various laws and local regulations [9] forbidding registered corporations under their jurisdiction from doing business with South African firms, factories, or banks.

In an analysis of the effect of sanctions on South Africa by the FW de Klerk Foundation, it was argued that they were not a leading contributor to the political reforms leading to the end of Apartheid[10]. The analysis concluded that in many instances sanctions undermined effective reform forces, such as the changing economic and social order within South Africa. Furthermore, it was argued that forces encouraging economic growth and development resulted in a more international and liberal outlook amongst South Africans, and were far more powerful agents of reform than sanctions.

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Western influence

Olof Palme, depicted on a poster by Cuban artist Rafael EnriquezWhile international opposition to apartheid grew, the Nordic countries in particular provided both moral and financial support for the ANC. On 21 February 1986 – a week before he was murdered – Sweden's prime minister Olof Palme made the keynote address to the Swedish People's Parliament Against Apartheid held in Stockholm. In addressing the hundreds of anti-apartheid sympathizers as well as leaders and officials from the ANC and the Anti-Apartheid Movement such as Oliver Tambo, Palme declared:

"Apartheid cannot be reformed, it has to be eliminated."


Other Western countries adopted a more ambivalent position. Until 1986, both the Reagan and Thatcher administrations in the US and UK followed a 'constructive engagement' policy with the apartheid government, vetoing the imposition of UN economic sanctions on South Africa, as they both fiercely believed in free trade, and seeing South Africa as a bastion against Marxist forces in Southern Africa. Thatcher declared the ANC a terrorist organisation [11], and in 1987 famously said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land".[12]

By the late 1980s, however, with the tide of the Cold War turning and no sign of a political resolution in South Africa, Western patience with the apartheid government began to run out. By 1989, a bipartisan Republican/Democratic initiative in the US favoured economic sanctions, the release of Nelson Mandela, and a negotiated settlement involving the ANC. Thatcher too began to take a similar line but insisted on the suspension of the ANC's armed struggle [13]. Britain's significant economic involvement in South Africa provided some leverage with the Botha administration, with both the UK and the US applying pressure on the government, and pushing for negotiations.

[edit]
Total onslaught
By 1980, South Africa was the only country in Africa with a white government and a constitution discriminating against the majority of its citizens. As international opinion turned decisively against the apartheid regime, the government and much of the white population increasingly saw the country as a bastion besieged by communism, atheism, and black anarchy. Considerable effort was put into circumventing sanctions, and the government even developed nuclear weapons, with the help of Israel [14], which have since been destroyed.

Negotiating majority rule with the ANC was not considered an option, at least publicly; this left the government to defend the country against external and internal threats through sheer military might. A siege mentality developed among whites, and although many realised that a civil war against the black majority could not be won, they preferred this to "giving in" to political reform. Brutal police and military actions seemed entirely justifiable. Paradoxically, the international sanctions that cut whites off from the rest of the world enabled black leaders to develop sophisticated political skills, as those in exile forged ties with regional and world leaders.

The term 'front-line states' referred to the countries in Southern Africa geographically close to South Africa. Although the front-line states were all opposed to apartheid, many were economically dependent on South Africa. Thus, in 1980 they formed the Southern African Development Co-ordination Conference (SADCC). The aim of SADCC was to promote economic development in the region and to reduce dependence on South Africa. Furthermore, many SADCC members also allowed the exiled ANC and PAC to establish bases in their countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Other_minorities

So it seems that Reagan and Thatcher seemed to support Apartheid government because it combatted communism. I am glad Margaret Thatcher was proven dead wrong. I like what the Swedish PM said about Apartheid, but i always thought the Nordic countries and Canada were morally better then America or Britain.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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I'm more interested in combating our 'kindlier, gentler' apartheid here in Canada visa-vie the natives than continually drudging up old news over a system that is no longer there just so I can blame the US and feel comfortable in my illusion of superiority driven, ironically, by an inferiority complex.

Seems in Canada everyone's an activist when it comes to someone else’s nation.

.
 

aeon

Council Member
Jan 17, 2006
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Claudius said:
I'm more interested in combating our 'kindlier, gentler' apartheid here in Canada visa-vie the natives than continually drudging up old news over a system that is no longer there just so I can blame the US and feel comfortable in my illusion of superiority driven, ironically, by an inferiority complex.

Seems in Canada everyone's an activist when it comes to someone else’s nation.

.


I agree with you say, instead of going and spending bn of money in afganisthan,to please coorporations, and killing innoncent peoples, we should spend it here, where peoples needs it.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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RE: Apatheid History (Reg

Aeon the money has nothing to do with it and you know it. That's because you're a really sick individual. You need help. Everything for you comes down to Afghanistan when clearly my post deals with our entire history.

Like many with sever mental disabilities you cannot make enough sense out of all the details in life and instead are limited to one single compulsive pattern. A lot like people who can multiply 6 double digit numbers in their head but who can't tie their shoes or read properly.

Afghanistan will be won. Your FBI's 'hard evidence' story is the weakest thing I've ever seen printed only proving your complete ignorance of the worlds legalities and contingencies. To you that the FBI wants to charge them with something they have better evidence for proves 9/11 was a hoax. You have to be the stupidest person on the forum to continually deny that, yes, indeed, a video taped confession IS evidence, even if it’s not automatic proof. Lol. The Saudi al Qaeda hijackers did 9/11, nothing was demolished...all the time people are shooting down you're stupid theories and you can't accept it. Over and over again people have brought forth their evidence only to be predicable thrown down by you as 'part of the conspiracy'.

You really only prove my points in the obvious manner in which you try and hijack the thread as a part of your compulsive disorder based on all American conspiracies.

Yer an idiot, literally. Such an idiot that the more people point it out to you the more you think it could only prove how smart you are.

.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Claudius said:
I'm more interested in combating our 'kindlier, gentler' apartheid here in Canada visa-vie the natives than continually drudging up old news over a system that is no longer there just so I can blame the US and feel comfortable in my illusion of superiority driven, ironically, by an inferiority complex.

Seems in Canada everyone's an activist when it comes to someone else’s nation.

.

:roll: :roll:
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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:roll: --- that's quite a retort.

What's wrong Jersay? Don't like being reminded of our own present and relevant apartheid shame?

Yeah I know: It's so much easier to keep focused on other people's crap instead of recognizing and addressing our own.....even if it's decades old.


.
 

Jersay

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Dec 1, 2005
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Claudius said:
:roll: --- that's quite a retort.

What's wrong Jersay? Don't like being reminded of our own present and relevant apartheid shame?

Yeah I know: It's so much easier to keep focused on other people's crap instead of recognizing and addressing our own.....even if it's decades old.


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No because if we forget about Apatheid and what it did. Then it can easily come back just like Nazism could come back.

However, I don't see how you consider Native reserves are apartheid practices when 80% of the Native population don't even live on reserves. However, the problems that occur on reserve should be seriously looked into.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
195
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RE: Apatheid History (Reg

No because if we forget about Apartheid and what it did. Then it can easily come back just like Nazism could come back.

Agreed.

However, I don't see how you consider Native reserves are apartheid practices when 80% of the Native population don't even live on reserves. However, the problems that occur on reserve should be seriously looked into.

80% may not live there but many more than 20% were born into them (and raised). It doesn’t matter if they are in the reserve or not though. They are not Canadians citizens, legally. They are continually jailed when whites would walk free. Denied employment when another person would get a job regardless of whether or not they had the same drug, alcohol or criminal record problems. We have yet to fully live up to even one of the hundreds of treaties and agreements we've made with them, even after we haggled them down. In every manner natives are segregated by us, and to some degree themselves. Even counselling services and welfare are segregated from the rest of society.

This is why I refer to it as a 'kindlier, gentler Apartheid'.

You say we must never forget what it did. That's reasonable. Shouldn't we also act now over what it's doing here? Should we wait for the car bombs and the international shaming?

.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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As in for Canada, if you knew any Canadian history we truely did play ever dirty trick in the book on the native Canadians and Americans. I would say it has not been until recently we have treated them right but even today we have not.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Re: RE: Apatheid History (Reg

Claudius said:
No because if we forget about Apartheid and what it did. Then it can easily come back just like Nazism could come back.

Agreed.

However, I don't see how you consider Native reserves are apartheid practices when 80% of the Native population don't even live on reserves. However, the problems that occur on reserve should be seriously looked into.

80% may not live there but many more than 20% were born into them (and raised). It doesn’t matter if they are in the reserve or not though. They are not Canadians citizens, legally. They are continually jailed when whites would walk free. Denied employment when another person would get a job regardless of whether or not they had the same drug, alcohol or criminal record problems. We have yet to fully live up to even one of the hundreds of treaties and agreements we've made with them, even after we haggled them down. In every manner natives are segregated by us, and to some degree themselves. Even counselling services and welfare are segregated from the rest of society.

This is why I refer to it as a 'kindlier, gentler Apartheid'.

You say we must never forget what it did. That's reasonable. Shouldn't we also act now over what it's doing here? Should we wait for the car bombs and the international shaming?

.

I agree with your statement there. Thanks for stating it more clearly and I agree their is discrimination in jobs in life and they do get worse sentences for some offences than White people, I think we should do something with Native areas.

That is why I think they should receive limited control over their entire Historical Areas of control and have their own resources and police and other services like Nisgaa. And other stuff as well as more allowance for jobs and better care in Urban areas.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Finder said:
As in for Canada, if you knew any Canadian history we truely did play ever dirty trick in the book on the native Canadians and Americans. I would say it has not been until recently we have treated them right but even today we have not.

I agree.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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I agree with your statement there. Thanks for stating it more clearly and I agree their is discrimination in jobs in life and they do get worse sentences for some offences than White people, I think we should do something with Native areas.

If you sense I was being a jerk in my first post, you're probably not too far off the mark. I apologize. It's just that I get here and start reading some of these posts and...well lets just say that the moonbats tend to eclipse any evidence of reasonable posters. I will try and imagine a 'calm clear ocean' for a few seconds before posting next time. :)

The original subject matter of the thread was not that 'offensive' to me really.

That is why I think they should receive limited control over their entire Historical Areas of control and have their own resources and police and other services like Nisgaa. And other stuff as well as more allowance for jobs and better care in Urban areas.

On the surface that sounds great, but unfortunately what we tend to see when we give more leadership to natives is even more discrimination between families. If your family is not liked by the chiefs’ well you might never get any of that money or support that the government (us) intended you to have, because we let their leaders dole it out.

Not stomping on your idea, imo there is no easy way. Personally I feel we should just abandon the idea of separating them as citizens and they should be 'classified' like all the rest of us. I dunno. It just seems that if you make them 'special' that they simply remain segregated.

It just seems the road we’re lackadaisically cruising down at the moment will either lead to ‘nominalization’ of native, violence or the slow death of the Native in Canada. I don’t claim to know what to do but I don’t think we can ignore it forever.

Also traditionally the government, (Liberal or otherwise) seems to always make deals with a lot of pomp and circumstance so that Canadians can read about it in the paper and we can feel good about ourselves, but when no one’s looking anymore they change the details of a deal and rip them off….mostly because it was probably an unrealistic offer to begin with.
.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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On the surface that sounds great, but unfortunately what we tend to see when we give more leadership to natives is even more discrimination between families. If your family is not liked by the chiefs’ well you might never get any of that money or support that the government (us) intended you to have, because we let their leaders dole it out.

Not stomping on your idea, imo there is no easy way. Personally I feel we should just abandon the idea of separating them as citizens and they should be 'classified' like all the rest of us. I dunno. It just seems that if you make them 'special' that they simply remain segregated.

It just seems the road we’re lackadaisically cruising down at the moment will either lead to ‘nominalization’ of native, violence or the slow death of the Native in Canada. I don’t claim to know what to do but I don’t think we can ignore it forever.

Also traditionally the government, (Liberal or otherwise) seems to always make deals with a lot of pomp and circumstance so that Canadians can read about it in the paper and we can feel good about ourselves, but when no one’s looking anymore they change the details of a deal and rip them off….mostly because it was probably an unrealistic offer to begin with.

I just don't know. I agree with your last paragraph and i agree we can't ignore it we have to at least try something. And the Liberals, and the conservatives at least in the past 20 years haven't done anything that creates frustration and the risk of violence and the risk of troops being called out like in Oka.
 

Jersay

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It's hard Cladius to try to find out an option for the Aboriginals of Canada. As you can see from my posts I clearly support them in some things, like Oka and otherwise.

But as a soldier I don't know if I can't help at all with finding a solution, just give my advice to someone else that might try to do it that way or this way.