Our mission in Afghanistan. A local perspecitve

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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This is a great article from the Toronto Star...

http://michaelyon-online.com/media/pdf/war...oronto_star.pdf

The part of the story that strikes me as most important is the dialog between the Canadians and the Afghan elders when they visit a town. Our whole mission, Afghanistan's problems, recent history and outlook towards the Taliban are clearly articulated by the Afghans themselves. (scroll down to the by-line: "A fruitful meeting", pg. 3)

The story is .pdf and it's rather large but it's a real gem for anyone who interested in, specifically, what we do there and the reaction of the locals.

excerpt:
"I cannot promise to solve all your problems," Schamuhn tells the leaders of the tiny village of Kundalan, who are
gathered in an impromptu shura — an Arabic word that means "consultation" — at the request of their announced
guests from Canada.

"What I can do is help your government solve your problems for you. You must understand that these are not
Canadian problems, these are Afghan problems. The Canadians are here to help the Afghan government find solutions.

"But I want to emphasize one point — we will not be here forever. We are only here temporarily to help get your
government back on its feet. My concern is for after we leave. You are the men who must take the initiative to become
actively involved in solving your problems, so you will have better lives after we're gone."


The one-eyed man raises his hand, announcing dramatically, "Now it is my turn to speak."
He is not the leader of Kundalan, that title belongs to one Salah Makmad, who had opened the meeting by describing
the plight of this wholly illiterate village of some 130 families. Water is the biggest issue; rather, the inability to store
water. When the spring runoff subsides in the coming weeks, Kundalan will run dry through yet another parched
summer.

Schamuhn's assistant, Lieut. Trevor Greene, 41, has already taken down the details. As Canada's civil-military
co-operation officer on the ground with 1st Platoon, Greene is a dove among the hawks of Canadian combat.
He has already learned that when the people of Kundalan get sick, one of two things happen. Maybe they go to
Kandahar, he is told. Or maybe they just die. And Greene has already learned that Kundalan's leaders, however much
they welcome a school, will not allow the education of girls. Not even if a separate school is constructed.

The one-eyed man draws breath and unleashes his torrent of doubts and reservations. Firstly, he says, the village has
already seen American soldiers come with notepads in hand, dutifully writing down all that ails Kundalan. The village
has nothing to show for all their promises.

It may be that Canada is trying to help a government that has no intention of helping this village, he continues. And
even if Canada's help makes it to Kundalan, he concludes, the village then runs the risk of inviting attacks from Taliban
fighters.

Schamuhn acknowledges the concerns but stands firm. He tells the villagers that they must make a choice. The
Canadians are ready to do their best for Kundalan, but Kundalan has a critical role to play.
"Already we have been bombed," Schamuhn says. "Lieut. Trevor was in the vehicle that was bombed. And the
Canadian base at Gombad came under rocket attack 10 days ago. "As much as I want to help you and focus on humanitarian aid, I cannot do that if we're always fighting people."

The one-eyed man softens at this news and, in the next breath, his combative tone vanishes. "If you give us a school,
a medical clinic, we can keep security in these places. We can help you. The Taliban is not made of Afghans. It is made
of Pakistani people who come here to fight,
" he says.


The sudden Afghan warmth is sanctified by the serving of tea and bread. With it comes the rest of the villagers, who
until now had stood at a distance. The Afghans remark favourably on the Canadians' willingness to share in the ritual,
noting that when U.S. soldiers came to visit, they refused the offer of the sweet tea.

"My American friends have weak stomachs," laughs Schamuhn, raising his glass to salute his hosts. "So when they
drink your chai they get sick."
Schamuhn cannot help but pay an additional compliment, commenting on how the village elders have spent an entire
hour squatting on bended knee.
"I am a young man from Canada, much younger than you," he tells them. "But I could not sit in such a position for
more than a few minutes without feeling pain. The Afghan people obviously have very good genes."
A round of handshakes follows and the Canadians withdraw, satisfied that an ice-cold village has begun to show the
first signs of thaw. On the march out of Kundalan, a special-forces adviser accompanying the party points to fist-sized
plants growing on one of the village's fields.

"Poppies," he says to no one in particular."


There are thousands like this man, real Afghans, who are able and willing to take the risks if we are. Without NATO and this mission those like this man, who fight and work now, trusting in us as allies, for a better Afghanistan, will most likely die at the hands of, "Pakistani people who come here to fight".





"Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds. "
--Buddha
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Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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Edmonton
RE: Our mission in Afghan

Exactly. The average Afghan wants us there, as they know we're in that nation to help them make a better lives for themselves. While I never attended a shura during my tour (Canada wasn't going to them yet), I have heard from friends overseas that Shuras draw the best hope for Afghanistan. Men who truely want their nation to be better off than it is. That's why we cannot abandon them.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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Mogz

<sound of crickets chirping>


I guess we'll have to wait for the next media shyte-storm that's ready to declare that a half dozen 107mm rocket attacks, and a couple of IED's constitute a "ferocious Taliban spring offensive! ", before we’ll see any responses. No see. No hear. No brain I guess.


Mogz, I kinda pegged this forum for a rabid, "Rage-Against-The-Machine", and a "We-get-our-geopolitical-views-from-22-year-old-musicians", and, “If-it-wasn’t-featured-on-Alternative-Radio-then-it-didn't-happen" – types, site. Am I right?

They really are the most cowardly of conformists. They pretend to care but they just care about their image in front of their picculi-smokin girlfriends. What a pampered, coddled, waste of a generation.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Independent Palestine
Of course most Afghani people want foreign troops there. But theit are some that possibly believe that if foreign troops leave then combat will end and they can go on about their daily lives because a small village in somplace in Afghanistan could have been peaceful for the last 20 years with no strong central government and they want to return to that.

Pakistanis are probably an element of the Taliban, but I don't think that is it, and we should be providing more reconstruction to the south because for example in East Timor I think these places have too many high expectations and some don't see an improvement yet with the Taliban gone. You have to get at these people, which these council or jurga meetings do.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
195
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Jersay


Thank you for the response. I respect your opinion over East Timor and I don't agree but I don't want to argue about it. It's a reasonible position. I juat have one detail I want to roll over:

Pakistanis are probably an element of the Taliban, but I don't think that is it,

The Taliban are heavily influenced and even led by Pakistanis. They owe their creation/solidification to the Pakistani desire to open a road to Iran. Their immergance amoung the students years before that was heavily inspired by Iranians.

It is a common theme amoung Afghans to distrust and dispise the Taliban for the very fact that they are comprised of far too many foreigners for their liking.

Pakistan played a key role in instigating the ethnic dominance of the Pashtuns. Pakistan was adamant that the regime in Afghanistan be both Islamist and Pashtun, as the Pakistani army is largely made up of this ethnic group. The Taliban offered such an opportunity. But Pakistan's backing of the Taliban also had other significant advantages. It would give Pakistan a strategic ally in face of the ongoing conflict with India. In addition, because the US preferred the Taliban to the Mujahidin, the latter being close to Iran, it sought to have the pipeline project which is to bring oil and gas from central Asia to the Persian Gulf pass through Afghanistan and Pakistan instead of Iran. This project would provide Pakistan with oil and gas resources as well as rent income. UNOCAL, a US firm, and its Saudi partner Delta are bidding to construct the pipeline. Reportedly, UNOCAL has bribed Pakistani army officials and security forces to ensure their backing of the project. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, which seeks to support suitable religious groups in the Muslim world, found in the Taliban a force which could undermine Iranian influence in Afghanistan. -

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/396/in4.htm


It's actually pretty well know that t Pakistan plays the hand to the Taliban puppet. All the Taliban ever really had was an early advantage over the rest of the country after the last quick civil was (after the Soviets left).

1992--

* April 15--The Mujahideen take Kabul and liberate Afghanistan, Najibullah is protected by UN.
* The Mujahideen form an Islamic State--Islamic Jihad Council--elections.
* Iranian and Pakistani interference increases--more fighting--
* Professor Burhannudin Rabbani is elected President.

http://www.afghan-web.com/history/chron/index4.html


People say Afghanistan can't be occupied. It has been since 1979. First by the soviets. Then by Pakistani/Persian influence.



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Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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Afghanistan wasn't occupied. The beginning part was okay, but the actually trying to destroy resistence forces did not work in the Soviets case or in the Taliban case.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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RE: Our mission in Afghan

Ok.

But the point is, before NATO, before 2001...could it be honestly said that the Taliban was a force for the Afghans? Or was it simply a tool of influence to be passed around Iran, Pakistan and the rest of the Arab world like a huka?

It wasn't the Taliban that forced the Soviets out. They didn't even exist yet.

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Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
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I think it was a tool for foreign influence. No doubt, but it appealed to some Afghans because it proposed a way to end violence like the Somali situation now.

The Mujahedden that was sponsored before the Taliban then was a tool for America and the Pakistan.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
195
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RE: Our mission in Afghan

The Mujahedden that was sponsored before the Taliban then was a tool for America and the Pakistan.

Granted. I could argue that in many ways it was more like America was the tool for the Taliban from time to time but whatever...my only point would still be - Would the democracy most Afghans want not protect against that outside influence for the future? It is something I've heard mentioned form time to time from 'the horses mouth' so to speak.

Look at India. Poor. Religiously diverse. Ethnically diverse. History of violence between them. These are not things that bode well for a democracy, but there they are. It ain't Shangra-la but India has really 'grown up' to it's credit and its' benefit.


....also...it's not really fair to say the Mujahedden were 'just a tool' in the same manner as the Taliban...even if they were influenced they were still comprise of far more actual Afghans and were, after all, responsible for getting the Soviets out...tool or no, that still makes 'em MORE than simply a tool.
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Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
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Absolutley Jersay.

Not trying to hit you over the head with it. :)

....and I hear you on Iraq.

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Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
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Claudius said:
Mogz

<sound of crickets chirping>


I guess we'll have to wait for the next media shyte-storm that's ready to declare that a half dozen 107mm rocket attacks, and a couple of IED's constitute a "ferocious Taliban spring offensive! ", before we’ll see any responses. No see. No hear. No brain I guess.


Mogz, I kinda pegged this forum for a rabid, "Rage-Against-The-Machine", and a "We-get-our-geopolitical-views-from-22-year-old-musicians", and, “If-it-wasn’t-featured-on-Alternative-Radio-then-it-didn't-happen" – types, site. Am I right?

They really are the most cowardly of conformists. They pretend to care but they just care about their image in front of their picculi-smokin girlfriends. What a pampered, coddled, waste of a generation.

Couldn't agree more. A lot of people on these forums are utterly out of touch with reality. Pampered, coddled, waste of a generation couldn't be more of an accurate description. While i'm young, 23, I can honestly say i'm ashamed of Canadian society. We as a nation no longer care about anything with the passion we once did. Our cities are filled with individuals who lack any global intelligence, and then turn around and cast doubt and blame on geo-political affairs, their vehemence based on lies and misinformation. Afghanistan is a perfect example. People speak out about our mission there, demand we withdraw, but cannot offer any conrete reason. Everything i've ever read on these boards is either blatantly wrong or misconstrued. 16 deaths in 5 years is a tragedy, a few IEDs are a massive offensive, we're there to build an oil pipe line, we're not helping Afghans, we're murdering inocent people. It's all rhetoric, that our society has bought in to in bulk. Instead of getting informed, the hamburger-helper eating masses choose to choke down the tripe the biased media force feeds them, then turn around and argue outright with the people on the planet who're in the know. I've said it before, and i'll say it again, disgusting.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RE: Our mission in Afghan

So Mogz all you got to do is give us the sources of your world wise ways and we can go read like you say you did and we'll think like you do. Instead of shitting on those you don't agree with why not post some links to your stuff.
Give us a few of the names of your People in the Know. Untill you do that I'll show you the level of respect you deserve, zip.
 

Claudius

Electoral Member
May 23, 2006
195
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RE: Our mission in Afghan

So Mogz all you got to do is give us the sources of your world wise ways and we can go read like you say you did and we'll think like you do. Instead of shitting on those you don't agree with why not post some links to your stuff.

S'not 'bout links. There are links for anything. People pass perfectly viable links back and forth all day, that for the most part, are just another opinion. A cursory examination of the reaction to links will show that people have most likely pre-determined what they are willing to believe and what they aren't...and in the West, in our grand 'Age of Information' (half of which is disinformation), for the most part, this unfortunately comes down to fashion and conformity, not facts and critiques.


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Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Edmonton
Re: RE: Our mission in Afghan

darkbeaver said:
So Mogz all you got to do is give us the sources of your world wise ways and we can go read like you say you did and we'll think like you do. Instead of shitting on those you don't agree with why not post some links to your stuff.
Give us a few of the names of your People in the Know. Untill you do that I'll show you the level of respect you deserve, zip.

Funny beaver, i've attributed the vast majority of my spin on things to me having been to the region in question (Afghanistan). While I am certainly not an expert on the war and the nation, I feel I bring more to the table than you. I have however in the past posted informative links on issues and topics, look back through my threads and you'll find them. With regard to Afghanistan, I, sadly, cannot post you a link that clearly gives you every iota of knowledge I gleaned while serving a tour of duty for 7 months and change in Afghanistan. Most of what I post is based on my time in a region that few in Western society understand, or for that matter care about. If you want a concrete link that'll somehow let you share in the experiences I have, try this one

As for names of my friends and/or colleagues, keep dreaming. I'd never even post my OWN name on a forum, especially one that has members who show anti-semitic, anti-military, and anti-democracy tendancies. Furthermore, many of the people I know are currently serving in Afghanistan, all the more reason not to broadcast their names for everyone to see. In fact, the emails I have posted from friends abroad have always had their names censored. Now you know why. In regards to respect. I don't care if you do respect me, I really don't. I don't need your everlasting approval to get through my day. I respect myself, and that's enough for me.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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If you know so much about what's going on over there maybe you could be so kind as to explain how the riot in Kabul got so bad so quick.

thanks.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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good article, btw, but I can't help thinking we're putting the cart before the horse and wondering why our troops have to google tips in lieu of training.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Edmonton
If you know so much about what's going on over there maybe you could be so kind as to explain how the riot in Kabul got so bad so quick.

thanks.

You and I both know that I cannot answer that with any degree of accuracy. In this case I can only speculate. In my opinion there were two catalysts for the riot:

1. Americans
2. Agitators

The riot would have been less likely to ensue if the accident had been caused by Canadians, or Brits, or Danes. The entire planet tends to blame everything on the United States, it's a sad stigma. Even people on these forums are quick to cast blame on anything American. People in a largely uneducated part of the World are even more so drawn in to the mindset. I'd like to point out that Canada has been involved to several deadly road accidents in Kabul and Kandahar, and no riots ever broke out. Even when a LAV-III flattened a teenager in down town Kabul. The American flag helped spark the riot.

The second aspect is, as I said above, agitators. There are those in Afghan society who try very hard to undermine the Afghan Government and Coalition Forces. They do things ranging from sitting in or Shuras and asking jeopardous question, to spreading disinformation among the populace. I'd be willing to bet darkbeavers left nut that in some shape or forum agitators helped fan the flames of todays riot.

My 11 cents on the issue.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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whatever the reasons this does seem to indicate things aren't all sunshine lollipops and welcome mats when it comes to popular support