Darfur is where our Peacekeepers should be

[Karlin]

Darfur is where our Peacekeepers should be, if we had some.

The Canadian military's announcment that Canada is no longer going to have peacekeepers could not have come at a worse time for Darfur's victims.

Saving lives is easy there - humanitarian aid and a simple bit of security - from boys and young men on horseback with macheties - would do the trick. Millions of lives are in peril due to the continuing attacks.

Our military would be doing much more good there in Darfur.

Fighting the mysterious boys of bin Laden in the hills of Afghanistan isn't protecting Canadians or anyone really. I think we are just there to help get the pipeline built .


The reality of the horrors of Darfur has not been reported to us yet. Just little bits over a long time, its in the back of our minds as far as international humanitarian crisis goes.


"Darfur: How Long Can We Ignore the Violence?"
http://tinyurl.com/q8j6n

This is the text of a lecture given on Nov. 16, 2005, by David Kilgour, member of the Canadian Parliament.

So our government knows about it. They just don't want to get involved I guess.

I hope our opposition parties will hammer away at Harper to divert our troops from Afghanistan to Darfur. Unlike Afghanistan here is NO doubt as to the nature of a mission to Darfur, and no doubt that the risk is worth it in terms of "lives lost lives saved"

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Diverting Forces to Darfur

:!: Point of Order¹

Kreskin, I would request that you either (a) change the options in your survey so as to make it easier for the membership to understand the response for which they are voting; or (b) post some sort of "key" to correspond to the options in your survey (for example, "yes", or "no", would be quite adequate in a survey such as this). I would reserve my vote until such time as I know what I'm voting for.

:arrow: Topic at Hand

I would suggest that while it would be prudent to send members of the Canadian Forces to assist in some sort of intervention in the Republic of the Sudan, I don't think that such a move should come at the expense of the efforts and progress being made in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. To be clear, I think that the events known to be transpiring in the affected areas of Sudan are tragic (and, indeed, genocide), but our actions in removing the Forces from Afghanistan could cause the state of affairs in that country to self-destruct.

I think that, if we are to participate in (or initiate) any sort of intervention other than that in Afghanistan, we are going to need to ensure that we have the adequate resources to initiate such an intervention while ensuring that our efforts in Afghanistan continue to progress as effectively as possible.

:!: Revision : (1) Added a Point of Order.

 

[Hank C]

Re: Diverting Forces to Darfur

I would suggest that while it would be prudent to send members of the Canadian Forces to assist in some sort of intervention in the Republic of the Sudan, I don't think that such a move should come at the expense of the efforts and progress being made in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. To be clear, I think that the events known to be transpiring in the affected areas of Sudan are tragic (and, indeed, genocide), but our actions in removing the Forces from Afghanistan could cause the state of affairs in that country to self-destruct.

I think that, if we are to participate in (or initiate) any sort of intervention other than that in Afghanistan, we are going to need to ensure that we have the adequate resources to initiate such an intervention while ensuring that our efforts in Afghanistan continue to progress as effectively as possible.

what he said


....sorry karlin, looks like our forces are in Afghanistan to stay. Between the Cons and Libs there is enough support for the Afghan mission.....not that I think there should be a free vote

 

[Sassylassie]

Karlin, I like you think someone has to step up to the bat and help the people of Darfur . There are many countries that could help why aren't they? The French are free, why is it that the US or Canada are expected to help, other countries need to step up to the plate?

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Free Vote on Afghani Mission

Hank C[/i]]....sorry karlin, looks like our forces are in Afghanistan to stay. Between the Cons and Libs there is enough support for the Afghan mission.....not that I think there should be a free vote

I oppose the notion of having a vote on the mission in Afghanistan before the next date on which the mission must be renewed; however, even if the House of Commons would express an opinion which would oppose the intervention, one must keep in mind that the Canadian Forces are sent abroad by the Commander-in-Chief in and over Canada, on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and, as such, the Commons cannot prevent the Prime Minister of Canada from continuing the mission against the opinion of the House (while a decision to oppose the House would likely stir controversy).

However, even if this issue were to come to a vote in the Commons, I think you are correct in your assertion, Hank C, that the support of most members of the Government of Canada and Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition would be enough to defeat a motion to withdraw, or to adopt a motion re-affirming our commitment to the mission.

 

[Lineman]

How does the CF get there?
-We have no strategic airlift.
-The only ports are on the Red Sea and the troops would have to travel through Khartoum to get to Darfur.
-Can't be done without US involvement. Without the US, NATO involvement would require many of its largest members committing big time.
Sudan = 2,505,810 Km² (Darfur = 493,180 km²)
Ontario = 1,076,395 Km²
How many soldiers does it require to make peace in Sudan?

 

[Johnny Utah]

Karlin, I like you think someone has to step up to the bat and help the people of Darfur . There are many countries that could help why aren't they? The French are free, why is it that the US or Canada are expected to help, other countries need to step up to the plate?

Yes other Countries need to step up now as Canada and the United States have their hands full. If other Countries don't step up this could be Rwanda all over again and the blame isn't Canada or the United States fault but the World's Fault for letting it happen again. Why are not France, Germany, Russia, China, Japan, etc not offering to step in?... Before it's to late.

 

[jimmoyer]

-Can't be done without US involvement. Without the US, NATO involvement would require many of its largest members committing big time.
-----------------------lineman----------------------------

There's the rub, lineman.

It means sacrifice to really help.

But instead those nations don't want to pony up
what it takes.

They want to tut tut at American hypocrisy,
and brag about how much foreign aid they offer
which is a myth.

They compared government aid to the Tsunami
victims and praised themselves beating out US govt
donations, but forgot to tally up the cost of
American aircraft carriers delivering the help, and
forgot to tally up American private donations that
literally dwarf any foreign government contribution.

All of this is going on while America is at war in 2 countries,
still reeling from Florida hurricane disasters last year
and now from Katrina which wrecked an area
the size of England this year and from a monster MEDICARE
program that dwarfs most country's, and from an AIDS
program in Africa that gets nothing but criticism yet offered
more than any other nation has to date.

Is the world any less nuts than America ?

 

[LittleRunningGag]

Karlin, I like you think someone has to step up to the bat and help the people of Darfur . There are many countries that could help why aren't they? The French are free, why is it that the US or Canada are expected to help, other countries need to step up to the plate?

I'm going to have to agree with this one. The Canadian Forces arn't up to the challenge. Even if we didn't have to deal with Afghanistan, the CF just don't have the resources to do what needs to be done. France and Germany do, but they're too busy doing nothing to do anything.

Russia and China... Well, lets just say I'm not holding my breath.

What about the rest of Africa? Why don't they do something about it? Why do the "western" nations always have to be the ones to solve the world's problems?

EDITED to point out that the polls options are a poor choice. I did not vote.

 

[Karlin]

First, about the poll - the first question I proposed didn't make the list, i don't know why - only my two POLL OPTIONs are there, and it asked me for two options, so damn, it is messed up. Forget it.
\\\

Logistics - the way a mission is physically carried out - is another topic. It gets done one way or the other for every other mission, I think ways can be found - Canada does not have to do it alone OR with the USA, we are friends with several nations with heavy lift capabilities. Nuff Said!!

The mission:
There were three teenagers who went to Darfur and helped out just by taking video of what they saw and bringing that back home to north america. It just takes the slightest bit of resitance to make a differnce there - people are just huddled under trees without blankets and are attacked where they lay.

It is being siad here that "the Mujahadden will be killing off whoever stands up to protect these vulnerable starving homeless people, so you need a whole force".

But it sure seems like even the smallest prescence of outsiders would make a difference. United Nations Observers were the only force in Bosnia, and I think it was good that they were there at least even if they could not stop the killings. Or have they decided it wasn't worth it to send in observers to genocides?

As for Afghanistan, I doubt very much if Canada's military prescence there is going to do much to stop the Taliban. Its just nonesence that we could "go there to get them before they come here and get us". The Taliban are not planning to come here... and if they do, it is important to have it happen once before we take actions like BushCo did.

No, Canada is NOT there to "get them before they get us".

Our role is - officially ? what? - to support the [puppet] government of Hamid Karzia, an American installation??

Our mission is a bit fuzzy isn't it?
What do you think Canada's military is doing there?

Karlin
[fiveparadox, you are a bit harsh, I am trying...]

 

[pastafarian]

In this case, I don't think there needs to be a peacekeeping force. We need a fighting force like the JTF2. There is already aa African force (African Union) in the region, but there's too much territory to cover and the soldiers are underequipped and lack logistical resources.
In this case, the Janjaweed militias need to be stopped, arrested and tried as criminals and if the government of Sudan balks, then a UN-backed invasion. Peacekeeping isn't needed here because only one side is really fighting.

 

[jimmoyer]

The Taliban are not planning to come here... and if they do, it is important to have it happen once before we take actions like BushCo did.
-------------------------Karlin---------------------------

That is not a well thought conclusion, Karlin, for
two reasons:

1. BASE CAMPS

Failed State Theory says that terrorists look
for those countries that have no resources to prevent
them from operating freely.

Afghanistan held
many bases (which is what al Qaeda means in Arabic)
which matriculated many learned souls on the
art of terrorism. Perhaps as many as 10,000 went
to train in those camps. That kind of training
is going to guarrantee results.

We'd rather have them on the run, rather than
be free to operate a base training camp.


2. PRE-EMPTION.

Since you are just a mere citizen and have no
burden a leader must shoulder, it is quite easy for
you to adopt a noble attitude taking the hit
first before you can act.

Your fellow citizens will not appreciate this noble
regard for their security.

 

[Lineman]

Logistics - the way a mission is physically carried out - is another topic. It gets done one way or the other for every other mission, I think ways can be found - Canada does not have to do it alone OR with the USA, we are friends with several nations with heavy lift capabilities. Nuff Said!!

Who else but the US, besides Russia who could do little with their ailing fleet, has strategic (longe range) lift?

Our mission is a bit fuzzy isn't it?
What do you think Canada's military is doing there?

All I can say to this is search in this forum and others where there are threads and posts by people who have actually been there . They have no problem understanding the mission and why they're there.

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Darfur is where our P

I don't think we should send peacekeepers to Darfur. It is none of our business.

 

[Lineman]

So we should just let innocents die? Pretty cold JonB2004, pretty cold.

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Darfur is where our P

I don't want my tax dollars being wasted on something that isn't nessecary. I'm tired of everyone being so humanitarian.

 

[Lineman]

So how much is a life worth? Is there a dollar amount that would be low enough for you to save a life? Gun registries, fraud in Quebec, I think I wouldn't mind the money being spent on saving lives instead of these.

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Darfur is where our P

We have problems in our own country. Its the UN's responsibility to deal with this.

Now don't get me wrong. I feel really bad for these people. But its just not our responsibility.

 

[Canadian with a hyphen]

Lineman...we should not let people die ... I agree
but i don't see why Germany, France ,Japan ,Italy don't believe that it's their responsabilty too..

 

[JonB2004]

RE: Darfur is where our P

Thank you. Someone with some common sense.