Spain drops its claim on Gibraltar.

Blackleaf

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For years, Spain has wrongfuilly tried to claim Gibraltar as its own. But now it's given up on the claim....


The Times April 22, 2006


Hopes of deal on future of Rock
By Edward Owen

Spain drops demands for sovereignty in more pragmatic approach to Gibraltar




AGREEMENTS on the use of the Gibraltar airport, telecommunications links and the payment of pensions to Spaniards who worked there years ago are expected soon, Peter Caruana, QC, the Chief Minister (their equivalent of Prime Minister) of Gibraltar, said yesterday.

He hoped that the deals would be signed this summer after talks had demonstrated a friendlier and more pragmatic approach by Spain. Progress had been made because Spain had agreed to sideline the main issue of its 400-year-old claim to sovereignty.

“The matter of sovereignty has no solution today,” he said. “We have a right to defend our future, and I defend the interests of my country. We demand self-determination, as did all the decolonised countries of the world.”

Mr Caruana, 49, who has been Chief Minister of the peninsula, population 31,000, since 1996, was speaking in Madrid to a forum of Spanish foreign ministry officials and businessmen.

He said that he expected agreements to be signed on joint use of the airport by Gibraltar and Spain, the supply of more telephone lines and telecommunications links by Spain for Gibraltar’s booming internet businesses, such as online gambling, and a solution to pensions owed to Spaniards who worked on the Rock until General Franco closed the border in 1969.

Mr Caruana’s speech was applauded by Sir Stephen Wright, the British Ambassador to Spain, and José Pons, the Spanish diplomat responsible for European and US policy.

Mr Caruana praised Madrid’s two-year-old socialist Government for bringing Gibraltar to the negotiating table between Britain and Spain, giving Gibraltarians a say in their future. “It was an intelligent and brave policy of dialogue to give a new perspective to the talks,” he said. “Spain has not modified its demands in any way, nor has Gibraltar, but at last we had an open agenda. The climate has changed, so we can advance to our mutual advantage.”

He said it was an anachronism that, under the 1704 Treaty of Utrecht, Spain had the right to reclaim Gibraltar if Britain relinquished control. He said that the new Gibraltar Constitution, approved this month and subject to a referendum by Gibraltarians, would give the Rock more control over its affairs.

Gibraltar’s businesses will welcome Spanish telecommunications. They have been stunted by a shortage of telephone lines, vital for the financial centre, which makes up 25 to 30 per cent of the economy of the self-sustaining community.

thetimesonline.co.uk
 

cortezzz

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thats probably a good idea
i suppose now that spain and britain are both not only allies but part of the same EU--- its a waste to argue about this

i suppose closer cooperation will bring open up more business opportunities for spanish companies---

so its probably enlightened self interest to drop somme kind of political clain on gibraltar---

in order to pursue--- an economic one
 

Finder

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"For years, Spain has wrongfuilly tried to claim Gibraltar"

Fine and all they have dropped the claim on such a small piece of land. But "wrongfully" claimed? It's a piece of Spain. But whatever. It's pretty sad when you consider the British empire consists of a few small across these days. By sad I mean extremely funny.
 

cortezzz

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i agree that spains claim on gibraltar was-- at least defendable---it wasnt --wrongfull
but is there any point to it--now
the british regard this as some kind of symbolic victory of theirs--- ie some defeat of the catholic powers- etc
theyll never give it up
and thats the point
spain will slowly absorb it now
i think its quite an enlightened position


one wonders-- how the british would react--if spain somehow----controlled --say cornwall
they would be psychotic with rage and hate--
even more than they are now---if you can imagine that

somehow by renouncing their claim---and pursuing economic ties--spain has proved itself-- much bigger than those little english people with their pretensions of empire
 

Finder

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Cortez, I totally agree with you. As you said now, their claim was not without merit. Giving up the claim, shows however, the socialist government of Spain is that much more mature then that of the (NEO)social democratic one of the UK. Was it the Sex Pistols who said
and I think of Blackleaf when I hear this song.

God save the queen we mean it man
There is no future in england’s dreaming
 

cortezzz

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yes from the classic never mind the bullocks
and blacleaf IS dreaming--
hes stuck --completely stuck in the past
but not even the past
an idealized view of the past

also from the same song i think

god save the queen
its a fascist regime

i agree the current spanish government--- is on the ball
i especially like the way they pulled out or iraq---as they said they would if elected-- in defiance of the UK and US
and how they are trying to sell Chavez some military hardware-- in defiance of the US

in response to US pressure to decrease trade with Iran
the spanish mocked them by sealing the largest car export deal in their history---selling a billion dollars worth of SEATs---small economy cars-- to Iran

they are socialist-- as youve said in contrast to the british labour party-- which-- really is run by right wing moles-- blair being the obvious example
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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RE: Spain drops its claim

I would say britain's position on gibralter is similar to northern ireland, they'll never give it up...oh and our govenment is'nt (NEO) Social democratic it SHOULD be almost communistic trade unionist, because thats actually what our currently leading party is all about....it's only Blir that is the (NEO) Social democrat
 

Finder

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The British Labour Party is Social Democratic and many of it's members socialists adn social democrats, but the leadership right now is pretty much apart of the new right wing movement in the social democratic parties. But if I lived in the UK I'd still vote Labour because of the progressive undertons in the LAbour party and the possibility of the left of the party taking over again. Voting Liberal Democrat is just..... wrong.
 

Daz_Hockey

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RE: Spain drops its claim

it's traditionally been EXTREMELY left wing, I should know, my mother was a speaker for the labour party at many TUC conferences.

and there are still MANY labour MP's who feel this way
 

Finder

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Labour is not communist, nor is the Socialist party of Spain. Don't be a right ring tool all your life. If your going to be right wing at least have a brain and see the differances, in Communism, Socialism, democratic socialism, and social democracy. I might be a social democratic but I do see the differences in the right, I do not think conservatives are facsists, or right wing Liberals as being conservative, the world is not made up of two extremes. Though the two extremes such as yourself and extrme leftists often see the world in black and white.
 

Finder

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Re: RE: Spain drops its claim

Daz_Hockey said:
it's traditionally been EXTREMELY left wing, I should know, my mother was a speaker for the labour party at many TUC conferences.

and there are still MANY labour MP's who feel this way

Labour is traditionally centre-left


Edit and currently with the leadership of Blir it has been regonized as a fully right wing party. But that ignores the left wing MP's inside the party. Anyone who see's the Labour party as being Extremely Left wing is extremly un-educated
 

cortezzz

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i suppose--
historically
we lefties owe a great deal to the good working people of britain--- ie the first trade unions etc......

that is a very fair minded englishness
- --which is quite admiralble-
- i know that from having met many of them

the british right however-- is as despicable as the american right ---- and their military- industrial --
complexes-- forgive the cliche
work in concert
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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RE: Spain drops its claim

they used to until about two years ago at official meeting call each other "comrade" just a little example, when Ramsay McDonald brought the first labour government to power is was virtually hand in hand with communism actually, and why do you assume I'm right wing?
 

Daz_Hockey

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RE: Spain drops its claim

it's difficult these days, there's really no difference between the two, I'd say I was pretty much centre left on a lot of things, such as social care and maybe a little right wing concerning my sceptism of the EU, probably slightly thatcherite actually...with bit of old labour mixed in if that makes sense
 

cortezzz

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yup
it makes sense

despite my rantings-- as i mature
--- long way to go

i do recognise the importance of fiscal responsibility--
though lately it seems the left is better at that

and i agree on the social programs

EU-- i dont know

whats been good for say-- ireland and spain
may not be good for britain
dont know
 

Daz_Hockey

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RE: Spain drops its claim

I always look at maragret Thatcher, she was the tories EU minister for many years, extremely pro EU, then after a while she slowly got tired of the infighting and corruption, now you cant find a more anti-EU person anywhere.
 

Finder

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Daz, oh Daz why do I bother... Perhaps I hope one day you will actually look at the world and see that not everything is us and them. Comrade is not owned by communists, my friend. Socialism is not owned by communists either. Though like you Communists believe they own such things because communists believe parties like the Democrats here in Canada and the Labour party are right wing class colabouraters and nothing remotely like socialism. Marxists-Leninist parties (Communist parties) generally even see Socialist parties like those in Italy, France and Spain as social democratic parties no better then that of the above.

It's amazing how far right or left you go how both sides see the world as generally the same. Everyone else who doesn't believe the exact same thing as you has to be on the other side.

Sorry the Labour Party of the UK believes in British Guilde socialism, not Marxism, and even today the whole socialist aspect, even the social democratic aspects of the party are in question, as the Labour Party seems to have many of their policies on the right of the Liberal Democrats, which is your version of our Liberal party. (BTW FPTP has screwed the Liberals in the UK really badly, xp in the last election, they should have had many more seats.)

Besides British guilde socialism, there is also Utopian socialism, European Social democracy, and countless other socialist parties which have little to nothing to do with Marxist-Leninism. True some of these parties are extremely big tent parties. Thus you get some communists, social democrats, socialists and liberals in these parties and thus the party incorperates all these beliefs. Yes Marx may have a few nods in the policy but so will policies based on democratic beliefs, Mills and many more. Truely many European and actually other nation left wing big tent parties are beautiful in how they allow a wide range of people into them and into power. Just like in the same counties you have big tent right wing parties. Even in the USA the Republican party is just not the Christian right but also a centre right block, even a gay social liberal block. You get into trouble when you work in extremes and only see in extremes.

The Conservative party of Canada is one such party working on moving away from this. They were by nature a elitist party on the hard right and are currently working hard on becoming Canada's big ten right wing party. I'm not sure how well it will work but I think they have a chance now to prove themselves.
 

Daz_Hockey

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Nov 21, 2005
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RE: Spain drops its claim

oh blimey...I yeild to the all-knowing Finder, you know ur stuff, I'll give you that....perhaps I should have listened to my mother when she banged on about labour's origins, thats what you get for not listening to ur parents....