Embrace Islam, Tackle Allies

[I think not]

THE HAGUE, 12/04/06 - An unjustified fear of and aversion to Islam exists in the Netherlands. Instead of continuing to drag the name of that faith through the mud, there should be far more criticism of friendly countries such as the US, Israel and Russia, the Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR) concludes.

WRR researcher Jan Schoonenboom is worried about "Islam-bashing" in the debate in the Netherlands. The frequently heard statement that Islam in principle conflicts with democracy and human rights is wrong, he declares. "If you, as a Muslim in the Netherlands, keep hearing only that Islam is the equivalent of violence and that you belong to a fifth column, then you feel alien. In the debate, many big words are used without being based on facts."

"Look, for example, at the warnings of the Christian democrats (CDA) parliamentary leader Verhagen about the introduction of the Sharia. As if we in the Netherlands would then get corporal punishment! I do not know whether it is ignorance or design on the part of Verhagen, but it does not make sense and is irresponsible." Schoonenboom was commenting yesterday on 'Dynamics in Islamic activism', a report by the WRR to be presented to Foreign Minister Bot today.

According to Schoonenboom "we should not be so spastic about the Sharia." It may be that the system leads to corporal punishment in countries like Saudi Arabia and Sudan, "but under the Sharia in Morocco, family law has been reformed, very much to the advantage of women's rights." The Sharia for Muslims is comparable to the Ten Commandments for Christians, in the researcher's view. "It is God's plan for human nature."

The WRR researcher wipes the floor with Islam critics such as MPs Hirsi Ali, Wilders and Verhagen, law philosopher Afshin Ellian and Rotterdam politician Marco Pastors. "They often play on gut feelings in the debate. On fear of Islam and of Muslims. You also see that in the debate on the accession of Turkey to the EU, this country is made out to be much more Islamic than it is, and Europe much more Christian that it really is."

Schoonenboom advises "an adventurous foreign policy" for the Dutch government. "We must support the moderate Islamic powers much more, such as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Hezbollah in Lebanon, instead of secular movements without prospects in Muslim countries. We must talk to the Palestinian regime of Hamas. They are democratically elected. It is a terrorist movement, but so was Arafat's PLO. And the IRA in Ireland."

"On the other hand, we must be much more critical regarding our friendly countries. We must address Russia more forcefully on human rights violations in Chechnya, Israel for its decades of ignoring UN resolutions and the US regarding Guantanamo Bay. In the Netherlands, there has practically never been a debate on the reasons for the invasion of Iraq and the Dutch support for this." (...) "We must also get rid of hypocrisy. We protest if one Christian is sentenced to death in Afghanistan, but what do we do if it is a Muslim?"

Schoonenboom denies that the WRR report is naive. It is a reaction of "a real fear of dangerous developments. Do we want to go on living in a land that is plagued by fear of attacks? A cultural change is needed here. The Netherlands cannot save the world, but we can try to influence EU policy. The battle against terrorism has got out of hand, is getting the characteristics of a clash of civilisations. (...) Bush is said to be considering attacking Iran or Syria. What in God's name are we doing?"

http://www.nisnews.nl/public/120406_1.htm

 

[Jersay]

If it starts a discussion on what true terrorism is, because it is not just a Islamic or an Islamicfacist phenomenon maybe even if you wish. And start discussing the situation that is going on in the Netherlands maybe something might be solved.

 

[jimmoyer]

Jersay, the trick for an immigrant is to understand
the country hosting you.

To behave otherwise is clueless.

Even stupid.

 

[zoofer]

That guy is a nutter. How does he explain no Muslims democracies in the world?
Holland is going to show new immigrants pictures of 2 men kissing and SSM. If it offends the immigrant he is asked to try other country. The Netherlands does not want him.

I should dig up the news item. Couple of days ago.

 

[Jersay]

Muslim democracy in the world. Huum, let me see.

I thought Iraq was a democracy and last time I checked. It was Muslim.

 

[Jersay]

With the Netherlands, it is purely political. Some right-wing politicians are trying to act like Islam is a boogey man, and scare normal ordinary people.

Now maybe, discussion with regards to Islam is good for the host and immigrant communities. They should do what they did in Montreal.

 

[jimmoyer]

Zoofer, the Netherlands (what a beautiful weird
metaphorical name for a country) is sane within the
context of its own society.

Like playing a game of checkers you are taught
to jump and move diagonally. Oppose those arbitrary
rules and rail against the night if you will, but
damnit get a clue about the context.

Context.

And if you visit or move to another country, get
a damn clue about your host.

I don't have to agree with the host, but I'm not
going to be a damn fool and not understand the
context and milieu of the situation and defy the
host and dominate the host.

Oh holy host.

Did I drift too far here ?

 

[Jersay]

No you were talking about a host. It is on opic with the host of somekind.

 

[Finder]

There are different levels and types of Terrorism. True... If Hamus had f18's and m1 tanks I highly doubt they be blowning themselves up. At the same time the terror which Russia, The USA and Isreal brings to the natiosn they attack is only a higher tech type of terrorism. Both are wrong, but when you push a people and nation to the point of destruction and the only thing left for you is pvoerty and you see a persevied enemy real or not, and your religous leaders have told you that this is jyhad like in the koran, well you just might figure you have nothing to lose on this earth and everything to gain in the next.

You just can't tackle Islamic extremism with the sword, as it will only make things worse.

 

[jimmoyer]

Actually Finder, the metaphorical and literal reality
is this war MUST be waged physically and mentally.

It's organic to the nature of this conflict.

No right or wrong about it.

It's process.

Hateful process.

We all gotta learn the hard way.

 

[Finder]

jimmoyer, the laws of Darwin's natural selection does not apply to humans, as social Dawinists have always tried to state and in which millions have died for in the past. So I must disagree with you. A war perhaps in a sence of civilizations but a war physically, only if we are too weak and dumb to stop it. Though I should not say this as many see Bush as this type of person. I pray he is not.

We do not have to conqour and destory other civililizations in hopes in keeping our own "pure and clean" but we can grow together with others. Perhaps this is harder to do then to just kill and murder our brothers and sisters.

However I do not say we should go over their and give Osama or Saddam hugs and kisses to stop them. Their are things which need to get done against the evils in this world, but their is a wrong way of doing it and the right way.

 

[FiveParadox]

I think that perhaps Jan Schoonenboom is on to something — that thread post made quite a bit of sense to me. To address the implication above, however, that Muslim nations have as of yet been incapable of democracy, I would remind the membership that the Republic of Iraq has implemented a democratic process, and much progress is being made on that front.

 

[Finder]

However Paradox, as the Democratic process was forced onto them and the raise of sectarian violance and a possible civil war, democracy has yet to take actual hold of Iraq, because the people or a good portion of them are not obaying the law or regonize the legitimacy of that government. Iran, the Soviet Union many nations have elections but the act of having an election and being a true democracy is two different things.

 

[FiveParadox]

I would agree with the premise of that, most certainly, Finder (while I sincerely hope that I am incorrect, I have a gut feeling that the democracy being imposed in the Republic of Iraq is doomed to failure, due to the very nature of the way in which the democracy was founded). However, I think that nations such as Canada must recognize that moderate Muslims are not a threat.

 

[Finder]

Of course Paradox, it might be an immpossed system which may indeed end up not working and causing more death in the future, but there is little alternative now... We've opened Pandora's box in a sence here. Once you open it, it can not be closed and we just have to stick with it.

 

[jimmoyer]

Finder, it isn't about the label Social Darwinism.

You get stuck on that definition and that label
and so you miss a very big observation about
process.

A lot of process of resolution or discovery is
difficult, even seems wasteful.

Like A Buddhist dispensing with logic or words,
figuring in an epiphany a slap upside the head
might startle the other into a discovery.

Or not.

Every level of interaction, from physical to mental
is coming at us, and this conflict is NOT about
some artificial concept like social darwinism, but rather
something integral, organic to us all.

 

[Finder]

jimmoyer, you remind me of my sister in-law. She thinks I often to try find out what people are and there motives too much.

But I think at any issue dealing with human beings you can not come up with any easy solution, left, right and centre. Such as the solution which states, our culture is better then theres and the only way we can gurenteee our culturers survival is to conqour theres, since there's is so backwards, corrupt and violent. In a sence isn't our own culture just as violant in reaction to there own when we think in these terms?

 

[zoofer]

Muslim democracy in the world. Huum, let me see.

I thought Iraq was a democracy and last time I checked. It was Muslim.

They have not formed a united government yet.
Thats why Condi and Jack Straw dropped in last week. Told them to get the lead out.

 

[jimmoyer]

For Finder:

I think you try too hard to match moral equivalency
between different cultures.

On the shallow level, we can all certainly divine
the parallels.

And the mistake of moral equivalency is too
often used to justify the evil of one and ignore the
evil of the other.

You like to compare state terrorism with individual
terrorism and find them to be morally equivalent.

So you end up over-compensating beating up
state terrorism and ignoring individual terrorism.

They are not morally equivalent.
They are not physically equivalent.
They are not equal in any dimension nor size.

Like the power of one split atom, the terror of one
individual promises an anarchy and horror greater
than the state.

Proof of this is David and Goliath.
Proof of this is bin Laden vs the power of any State.
Proof of this is the power of asymetrical warfare.
Proof of this is splitting an atom, not a molecule.

Start reading some Hobbes, particularly his book,
Leviathon, discussing the horror of anarchy its power so
great as to make a dictatorial state more preferable.

It will get you past all the shallow parallels.

Equating things is easy.

The hard part is underneath.

 

[Finder]

The Leviathon is the holy bible for old school conservatism (which is more like new school liberalism -economically-) which shuns everything we hold dear or at least try to go for in a free market econmy and liberal democracy which Conservatives want these day and ages (please remember this is the old meaning of liberal (laizzes-fair)).


I do not old the Leviathon nor Hobbes simplicty of divine right of rulers nor his social contract to those divine rulers as self evident. Though to be Fair to Mr Hobbes I really do not believe he was writing about the modern world and geo-political terrorism, of state nor individual.

I don't know perhaps I am wrong, and perhaps you are right, because when I think of it, many in the islamic world think in the same extremes as G W Bush and those who wish for conflic. Though I think it will be an uphill battle on both sides to change these views I think our Democratic states will need to be understanding of the social condistions of these nations and our own responcibility to these nations, while keeping the balance of holding those rogue nations which do exsist accountable by a world body.

The worst thing is right now, is that this is not happening, we are taking our difference into a new lelvel of war and those nations which we should not be close to such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are our biggest allies in this fight, yet one of the biggest problems to why we have to fight. You may think I'm going into the deep end by saying this but in a sence it somewhat of a paradox we are working ourselves into and one which I fear that we can not win.