Who is the terrorist?

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - The two brothers were helping out in their dad's welding shop when an Israeli missile slammed into an ice cream truck carrying Islamic Jihad gunmen. Two militants were killed, but so were the boys.

ADVERTISEMENT

The tragic results of the airstrike, which killed a third child nearby, are prompting new debate in Israel over the targeted killings of Palestinian fugitives.

Israel's air force commander defended the strikes against Islamic Jihad, which has carried out daily rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel as well as all six suicide attacks since February 2005.

On Wednesday, Islamic Jihad threatened to hit Israeli leaders in retaliation for Monday's killing of its militants. "The Zionist enemy leaders should know that they definitely are targets," it said in an Internet statement.

An Israeli human rights group called for the military to investigate whether Monday's raid involved the use of "disproportionate" force.

In its inquiry, the Israeli air force said the ice cream truck carrying the militants had turned onto a crowded street after the missiles were launched Monday and it was too late to divert them. Drone aircraft photographing the scene did not pick up the civilians in time, the Maariv daily reported.

The boys' mother said it was too late for explanations or apologies, recalling her anguished search for her boys after the attack.

"I ran to the window when I heard the strike. The window shattered, and I saw a man carrying Mahmoud's lifeless body," said Somaya al-Batsh, mother of 8-year-old Raed and 16-year-old Mahmoud.

"But I couldn't see Raed. I asked everyone, 'Where is Raed? Where is Raed?' A neighbor later told me that he flew through the air from the force of the blast."

Receiving condolence callers in Raed's bedroom in Gaza City, al-Batsh did not mask her anger at Israel.

"This was a street full of people and children. How can they fire a missile? Who is the terrorist here?" she said bitterly

Then she added, "My sons are in heaven now."

The small room was decorated with the dead 8-year-old's drawings — a winter scene, his gray unpainted house.

Raed was the studious type, she said, and was already saving to buy a house. His red piggy bank rested near his bed, close to pictures of leaders of the militant group Hamas.

Mahmoud was a handyman, and kept people laughing around the house, she said. He picked fights with his sisters and cracked jokes about their living conditions.

Islamic Jihad has ignored an informal truce with Israel being observed by the Islamic militant Hamas, and on Wednesday it again rejected the cease-fire. In recent months, Israel has stepped up its airstrikes in Gaza, aiming at militants it says are involved in the daily rocket barrages at Israel. Civilians are often caught in the crossfire.

Another boy, 14-year-old Ahmed Sweisi, also was killed in Monday's strike.

Air force commander Eliezer Shkedy, speaking at a conference at Tel Aviv University on Tuesday, offered statistics showing the air force is getting better at targeted strikes. In 2002, as many bystanders were killed in the airstrikes as terror suspects. Last year, Shkedy said, 28 militants were killed for every civilian in the raids.

Just as the statistics were no comfort to the grieving mother, they did not satisfy all Israelis, either.

Shai and Dror, a two-man team of Israeli entertainers who broadcast daily on a Tel Aviv radio station and write a column in the Maariv newspaper, said Wednesday the air force commander's explanation "does not clear our conscience."

Writing what they called an open letter to the slain boys' mother, they cited many friends who feel the same way, though they would not say so in public, "because the Israeli narrative does not allow people to come out against the military ... It is forbidden to say that this army does not represent me. But it doesn't. Not when it kills children."

It's not the first time Israel has killed children in airstrikes targeting militants.

Some 514 Palestinians age 16 and younger were killed between September 2000 and March 2005, according to an Associated Press count. During the same period, 97 Israeli children were killed in Palestinian suicide bombings and other attacks.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem called for the military to investigate whether Monday's raid involved the use of "disproportionate" force, "which is defined as a war crime," it said in a statement.

The suffering is not over for the al-Batsh family. Of the seven children wounded in the airstrike, four were relatives of the dead brothers, including their 18-year-old brother and a 4-year-old cousin who lost an eye. The dead boys' father, Ahmed, was hospitalized for two days.

Their mother looked to her faith for consolation. "God chose them to be with him," she said, holding her breath as she spoke of the boys. "And only he can take revenge for us."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060308/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_slain_children
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
In its inquiry, the Israeli air force said the ice cream truck carrying the militants had turned onto a crowded street after the missiles were launched Monday and it was too late to divert them. Drone aircraft photographing the scene did not pick up the civilians in time, the Maariv daily reported.


If you have to ask, Jersey....
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
It is still negligent. Gaza is one of the most crowded areas in the world. The people who thought of this attack should have known civilians would have been targeted.
 

Sublime

Electoral Member
Mar 8, 2006
237
2
18
Toronto
Eh stop picking on the Jews, if it wasn't for them.....
......
......
......
We wouldnt have....
......
......
Nuclear Weapons....

Thank heavans for the Jews.

And dont forget it was a jew who helped Jesus carry the cross up that hill..according to Mel Gibson....
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Jersay said:
It is still negligent. Gaza is one of the most crowded areas in the world. The people who thought of this attack should have known civilians would have been targeted.

Yes the state of Israel should suffer the consequences of terrorism because the terrorist drive there terrorist vehicles into crowds while being attacked.

The real question here is why are you supporting the use of human shields?
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,336
66
48
51
Das Kapital
Sublime said:
Eh stop picking on the Jews, if it wasn't for them.....
......
......
......
We wouldnt have....
......
......
Nuclear Weapons....

Thank heavans for the Jews.

And dont forget it was a jew who helped Jesus carry the cross up that hill..according to Mel Gibson....

WGF.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Jay, I think you may be reading into this situation a bit; one should not condone the death of any human, "terrorist" or otherwise (that is my opinion, but I know that it is not a shared one). Rather, we should endeavour to punish them in accordance with the law — imprisonment, et cetera. War should never be an option.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Tell that to terrorists, Five.


What laws should they be tried under in the Gaza strip? Palestinian law? Israeli law? Do you really think Hamas is going to give these people a fair trail...or is it going to be a slap on the pretend wrist and they walk away to commit more terrorism?

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

FiveParadox said:
Jay, I think you may be reading into this situation a bit; one should not condone the death of any human, "terrorist" or otherwise (that is my opinion, but I know that it is not a shared one). Rather, we should endeavour to punish them in accordance with the law — imprisonment, et cetera. War should never be an option.


I don't agree with that. There is nothing wrong with killing a man who honestly intends to kill you. People who will not fight for their own survival boggle my mind.

It is unfortunate that, in a justified attack on these terrorists, the Israeli's killed these two young men. However, the fault for their deaths is at least equally on the heads of the terrorists of Islamic Jihad. The main reason terrorists hide out in highly-populated areas is so they can use the civilian population for cover, and so that any attacks against them will kill civilians, thereby gaining them more recruits. This is as much their fault as the Israelis.

And the Israeli's are not the terrorists in this scenario Jersay. THey attacked an armed and dangerous enemy force, and accidentally caused the deaths of nearby innocents. THe terrorists of Islamic Jihad primarily attack civilians and innocents.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Both sides are employing terrorism, to think otherwise is retarded, both sides live in terror, both sides have to live with the death of innocent children, and they do and they will continue to do so employing the idiot dictum, fight fire with fire, this ultimately implies that only those who avoid death by fire have a right to life. Fighting fire with fire is a tired old piece of bullshit that leads nowhere but the grave.The better cure for fire is water.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

darkbeaver said:
Both sides are employing terrorism, to think otherwise is retarded, both sides live in terror, both sides have to live with the death of innocent children, and they do and they will continue to do so employing the idiot dictum, fight fire with fire, this ultimately implies that only those who avoid death by fire have a right to life. Fighting fire with fire is a tired old piece of bullshit that leads nowhere but the grave.The better cure for fire is water.



Dark beaver, when has a violent militaristic force bent on destroying an enemy/state/race/etc. ever been stopped without any use of force at all?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

Doryman said:
FiveParadox said:
Jay, I think you may be reading into this situation a bit; one should not condone the death of any human, "terrorist" or otherwise (that is my opinion, but I know that it is not a shared one). Rather, we should endeavour to punish them in accordance with the law — imprisonment, et cetera. War should never be an option.


I don't agree with that. There is nothing wrong with killing a man who honestly intends to kill you. People who will not fight for their own survival boggle my mind.

It is unfortunate that, in a justified attack on these terrorists, the Israeli's killed these two young men. However, the fault for their deaths is at least equally on the heads of the terrorists of Islamic Jihad. The main reason terrorists hide out in highly-populated areas is so they can use the civilian population for cover, and so that any attacks against them will kill civilians, thereby gaining them more recruits. This is as much their fault as the Israelis.

And the Israeli's are not the terrorists in this scenario Jersay. THey attacked an armed and dangerous enemy force, and accidentally caused the deaths of nearby innocents. THe terrorists of Islamic Jihad primarily attack civilians and innocents.

Doryman are the Palistinians not fighting for thier own survival, and who or what justified these attacks?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Sending rockets into Israeli territory and blowing up old ladies on buses in Israeli cities is fighting for your own survival?

Ya, right.
 

Doryman

Electoral Member
Nov 30, 2005
435
2
18
St. John's
Israel didn't attack the pallestinians, they attacked a palestinian terrorist group, Islamic Jihad. When the cops shoot Hell's Angels in Montreal, I don't complain that Canada is being attacked by the RCMP...

The Palestinians are not fighting for their own survival because Israel is not trying to exterminate them. "The Palestinians" are fighting to either exterminate the Jews or abolish Israel and drive the Jews out of the contested land. Groups like Islamic Jihad are fighting to destroy the Jews, so I believe that the Jews have the right to fight for their survival.


And these attacks were justified by the fact that Islamic Jihad has repeatedly threatened, and tried, to execute Israelis. By killing these militants, they got rid of a danger to themselves.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

Doryman said:
darkbeaver said:
Both sides are employing terrorism, to think otherwise is retarded, both sides live in terror, both sides have to live with the death of innocent children, and they do and they will continue to do so employing the idiot dictum, fight fire with fire, this ultimately implies that only those who avoid death by fire have a right to life. Fighting fire with fire is a tired old piece of bullshit that leads nowhere but the grave.The better cure for fire is water.



Dark beaver, when has a violent militaristic force bent on destroying an enemy/state/race/etc. ever been stopped without any use of force at all?

So you say we shouldn,t use fire to cook meat because it,s never been done before, that kind of thinking condemns us to eternal warfare, if you are content to continue to use methods of conflict
resolution that no longer have much of a future fine, if we do not arrive at a better way we won,t be arriving anyplace other than extinction.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

darkbeaver said:
Doryman said:
darkbeaver said:
Both sides are employing terrorism, to think otherwise is retarded, both sides live in terror, both sides have to live with the death of innocent children, and they do and they will continue to do so employing the idiot dictum, fight fire with fire, this ultimately implies that only those who avoid death by fire have a right to life. Fighting fire with fire is a tired old piece of bullshit that leads nowhere but the grave.The better cure for fire is water.



Dark beaver, when has a violent militaristic force bent on destroying an enemy/state/race/etc. ever been stopped without any use of force at all?

So you say we shouldn,t use fire to cook meat because it,s never been done before, that kind of thinking condemns us to eternal warfare, if you are content to continue to use methods of conflict
resolution that no longer have much of a future fine, if we do not arrive at a better way we won,t be arriving anyplace other than extinction.

So we should lay down our weapons so the enemy can run us over?

If your bent on taking the enemies side, go tell them to lay down their weapons.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Your my enemy Jay and yet I still continue a dialog of sorts with you, even though through your written words I am often reminded of my own inate love of armed conflict, and would some days rather reach out for my club and lay about your fat head with relish. However having done such a thing I could expect that your retarded relatives would seek revenge and I would be in conflict again having gained nothing from the exercise of armed assault except the continuation of violence.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Who is the terrorist?

darkbeaver said:
Your my enemy Jay and yet I still continue a dialog of sorts with you, even though through your written words I am often reminded of my own inate love of armed conflict, and would some days rather reach out for my club and lay about your fat head with relish. However having done such a thing I could expect that your retarded relatives would seek revenge and I would be in conflict again having gained nothing from the exercise of armed assault except the continuation of violence.

Don't worry DB...it's OK to have these sorts of feelings.

Also don't worry about my relatives; they won't need to get in on the action, for if I even see your hand move close to your club, I'm going to chop it off. Try again and it will be much worse, as I have contempt for people who can't learn simple tasks.