Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

I think not

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Cultures collide: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe unless they reverse the growing perception of them as a social threat

Lawrence Solomon, Financial Post
Published: Friday, February 17, 2006
The Muslims refused to assimilate. They were expelled. This was the story in Europe 400 years ago. We are watching the sequel today.

Europeans are rarely welcoming to outsiders, even when the outsiders are blond and blue-eyed and come from the country next door. When the outsiders are un-European, swarthy and Muslim, they are tolerated at best. When some Muslims also insist that Europeans stop acting like Europeans, on pain of death, European tolerance comes to an end.

In the clash of cultures between secular Europeans and extremist Muslims, there can ultimately be no compatibility or compromise, only loss by one side or the other of the absolute values it holds dear. European capitulation on European soil, where they remain the dominant majority, is unlikely: Europeans revel in their liberty to mock religion, to poke fun at sacred cows, to be outrageous, even to offend.

European leaders have reacted to the Muslim upset over the cartoons two ways. Publically and to buy time, they seek to calm the protesters by deploring the abuse of freedom of speech. More significantly, they seek to preserve their societies by legislating Western norms, by tightening or ending immigration from Muslim countries, by enabling the expulsion of radical imans and other Muslim activists, and by raising the spectre of mass deportations.

In France, hard-line Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who in October characterized France's urban rioters as "rabble," will require non-European immigrants to sign a new "Contract of Welcome and Integration" that spells out their obligations. Among other reforms, the French government will be free to expel immigrants after 10 years. Insular Muslim communities -- commonplace today -- are outlawed. For immigrants to stay, they will have to demonstrate respect for French norms, such as equality between men and women. "If a wife is kept hostage at home without learning French, the whole family will be asked to leave [the country]," said Mr. Sarkozy, who proposes to rank countries to determine the desirability of their immigrants.

The Danes have brought in immigration laws that are stricter still, all but ending their liberal refugee program and discouraging even temporary workers. In the wake of the cartoon riots, many in Denmark, including those in government, want to see an outright ban on Muslim immigration and to have radical leaders stripped of citizenship and deported. To preserve home-grown values, Danish Minister for Cultural Affairs Brian Mikkelsen recently called for the creation of a "canon of Danish art, music, literature and film." Last summer, he stated that, "In Denmark we have seen the appearance of a parallel society in which minorities practice their own medieval values and undemocratic views," adding that, "This is the new front in our cultural war."

In Germany, which pioneered the guest-worker program in Europe, a sea change has occurred. "Multicultural societies have only ... functioned peacefully in authoritarian states. To that extent it was a mistake for us to bring guest workers from foreign cultures into the country at the beginning of the 1960s," said former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt. Germany's new Chancellor, Angela Merkel, shares his view: "The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart," she said prior to her election. "Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots."

The Netherlands, which has cut immigration in half since 2001, is deporting 26,000 rejected asylum seekers and keeping new arrivals in detention camps. Under proposed legislation, women will be banned from wearing the burka anywhere in public, not just in schools and public buildings as French legislation has it. "I believe we have been far too tolerant for too long, especially being too tolerant of intolerance, and we only got intolerance back," said Member of Dutch Parliament Geert Wilders, who has been forced to live in safe houses because of Islamist death threats. According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes poll, 51% of the Dutch view Muslims unfavourably.

Belgium may be less tolerant still. "Islam is now the number one enemy not only of Europe, but of the entire free world," states Filip Dewinter, leader of Vlaams Belang (The Flemish Interest), now Belgium's most popular political party. Mr. Dewinter has gained popularity by arguing that, "it is an illusion to think that a moderate Islam exists in Europe." He states: "There are already 25 million to 30 million Muslims on Europe's soil, and this becomes a threat. It's a real Trojan horse."

Many Europeans fear their Muslim populations. In Switzerland, 25% consider Muslims a threat to their country. In Italy, half the population believes a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West is underway and that Islam is "a religion more fanatical than any other."

The fear debilitates but it also stiffens resolve. The President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, backs the Danish government's refusal to apologize for the cartoons, saying, "It's better to publish too much than not to have freedom." France's Sarkozy prefers "an excess of cartooning to an excess of censorship." Italy's Northern League Party, a member of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's coalition government, printed T-shirts sporting the cartoons in advance of elections in April. The U.K. this week passed legislation broadening the right of free speech, no matter how offensive, barring a specific intent to provoke hatred.

Europe's Muslims now know that they are expected to integrate or to depart. Four centuries ago, after decades of threats of expulsion, forced conversions and other failed attempts to assimilate Muslims, complaints about them -- their use of Arabic, their clothes, their rejection of Western culture -- were similar. "They marry among themselves and do not mix with Old Christians," complained one report of Spain's Moriscos (Muslims who had undergone forced conversions to Christianity). Riots by Muslims at offences perpetrated upon them added to tensions. In the end, still not assimilated, most were expelled.

Link
 

FiveParadox

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When people are deported from Western nations en masse due to their faith, that will be the end of freedom of religion. The rest of our rights and freedoms will follow suit shortly thereafter.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
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Re: RE: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

FiveParadox said:
When people are deported from Western nations en masse due to their faith, that will be the end of freedom of religion. The rest of our rights and freedoms will follow suit shortly thereafter.

The story is not about deporting people for their religion; rather, it is deporting people for their actions and beliefs that are incompatible with Western civilization.

There is a difference.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
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I like how Tony Blair put it....if you "meddle" in terrorism, your OUT! We should make such known in Canada. Muslims are welcome, but if they are caught messing around its bye bye (any foreigners for that matter)....or possibly a 1 way trip to that little tropical paradise we call GITMO.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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European leaders have reacted to the Muslim upset over the cartoons two ways. Publically and to buy time, they seek to calm the protesters by deploring the abuse of freedom of speech. More significantly, they seek to preserve their societies by legislating Western norms, by tightening or ending immigration from Muslim countries, by enabling the expulsion of radical imans and other Muslim activists, and by raising the spectre of mass deportations.

In France, hard-line Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who in October characterized France's urban rioters as "rabble," will require non-European immigrants to sign a new "Contract of Welcome and Integration" that spells out their obligations. Among other reforms, the French government will be free to expel immigrants after 10 years. Insular Muslim communities -- commonplace today -- are outlawed. For immigrants to stay, they will have to demonstrate respect for French norms, such as equality between men and women. "If a wife is kept hostage at home without learning French, the whole family will be asked to leave [the country]," said Mr. Sarkozy, who proposes to rank countries to determine the desirability of their immigrants.

The Danes have brought in immigration laws that are stricter still, all but ending their liberal refugee program and discouraging even temporary workers. In the wake of the cartoon riots, many in Denmark, including those in government, want to see an outright ban on Muslim immigration and to have radical leaders stripped of citizenship and deported. To preserve home-grown values, Danish Minister for Cultural Affairs Brian Mikkelsen recently called for the creation of a "canon of Danish art, music, literature and film." Last summer, he stated that, "In Denmark we have seen the appearance of a parallel society in which minorities practice their own medieval values and undemocratic views," adding that, "This is the new front in our cultural war."

In Germany, which pioneered the guest-worker program in Europe, a sea change has occurred. "Multicultural societies have only ... functioned peacefully in authoritarian states. To that extent it was a mistake for us to bring guest workers from foreign cultures into the country at the beginning of the 1960s," said former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt. Germany's new Chancellor, Angela Merkel, shares his view: "The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart," she said prior to her election. "Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots."


To be expected after the recent outburst of violence; it will take a long time to heal these wounds, and moderates on both sides will have to take responsibility to try to educate the fanatics. Until fanaticism is eliminated, the problem can only worsen. So perhaps these restrictions on controls from Muslim countries are appropriate for now. I don't fully agree with the idea, but also beleive that under the current political situation, it might be a good way to give both sides a chance to cool down down a little.


The Netherlands, which has cut immigration in half since 2001, is deporting 26,000 rejected asylum seekers and keeping new arrivals in detention camps. Under proposed legislation, women will be banned from wearing the burka anywhere in public, not just in schools and public buildings as French legislation has it. "I believe we have been far too tolerant for too long, especially being too tolerant of intolerance, and we only got intolerance back," said Member of Dutch Parliament Geert Wilders, who has been forced to live in safe houses because of Islamist death threats. According to a recent Pew Global Attitudes poll, 51% of the Dutch view Muslims unfavourably.

Again, while I don't agree with the immigration restrictions in principle, I do believe that they might be necessary for the time being. Heck, I'm a world federalist who's totally opposed to the very idea of borders, for for someone like me to think that immigration restrictions might be a good thing, at least temporarily, just shows how far the extremists pushed their limits.

As for the burqa issue, however, I think government suppression of that could be a ticking time bomb for the following reasons:

1. Many Muslim women, even among moderates and converts, can be extremely devoted to the Burqa on an emotional level (I'd lived at the heart of a Muslim community for over five years in Canada, so I know).

2. Deporting those women who refuse to remove the burqa will be challenging for converts and those born in the country who, like I said, can be just as determined as their immigrant counterparts in this issue. And no, it's not always because the men forced them to do it (often it is for the immigrant ones, but the converts usually do it out of their own free will, and with determination).

So while I'd be for banning Muslim immigration, at least temporarily, I'd say that the government would be wise to stay out of the burqa issue.

Belgium may be less tolerant still. "Islam is now the number one enemy not only of Europe, but of the entire free world," states Filip Dewinter, leader of Vlaams Belang (The Flemish Interest), now Belgium's most popular political party. Mr. Dewinter has gained popularity by arguing that, "it is an illusion to think that a moderate Islam exists in Europe." He states: "There are already 25 million to 30 million Muslims on Europe's soil, and this becomes a threat. It's a real Trojan horse."

I don't fully agree, but like I said before, I think Muslim immigration ought to be curbed in Europe at least until things cool down.

Just my views.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
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Calgary, AB
"The notion of multiculturalism has fallen apart," she said prior to her election. "Anyone coming here must respect our constitution and tolerate our Western and Christian roots."

In Denmark we have seen the appearance of a parallel society in which minorities practice their own medieval values and undemocratic views," adding that, "This is the new front in our cultural war."

Among other reforms, the French government will be free to expel immigrants after 10 years. Insular Muslim communities -- commonplace today -- are outlawed. For immigrants to stay, they will have to demonstrate respect for French norms, such as equality between men and women.

immigrants from muslim countries should be rigoursly screened before they even step on Canadian soil. The riots in France and other incidents in Europe have cause them to act rather than react. Sadly Canada has the passive attitude "it will never happen to us".
 

Machjo

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Re: RE: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

When people are deported from Western nations en masse due to their faith, that will be the end of freedom of religion.

There is certainly an argument here in that some moderate Muslims who can't be deported due to birth or native ancestry (i.e., their origins trace back to the country with no immigrant blood, so where to send them?) could be offended, and certainly relations between Muslim countries and Europe could sour. I wouldn't really say that banning Muslim immigration is suppressing their faith since they are still allowed to practice the faith, just not enter the country. So yes it's discrimination, perhaps prejudice, but not suppression of freedom of religion; they have the choice not to go to Europe.

As for the burqa issue, though, that's another matter, and any country which tries to suppress it is asking for the same kind of riots that had occurred in France not long ago. And many of them were not immigrants, but French-born Muslims.

The rest of our rights and freedoms will follow suit shortly thereafter.

I don't think so. this is strictly a fearful reaction to islamic extremism whose main focus is not on suppressing Islam but rather on just limiting the number of immigrant Muslims(obviously not much can be done about native-borns). The only point on which I might agree with you is on the burqa issue. But as for keeping Muslims out, that's an immigration, not religious issue, despite its possibly being discriminating or damaging.

While the governments limit foreing Muslim immigration, it might be wise however to conult with native-born Muslim communites to find out how to find a more approaprite long-term solution whcih can at least appease the native-borns. I'd suspect taht moderates will be able to understand, though not necessarily agree, with the new immigration rules. but the burqa has got to be left alone for any progress to be made.
 

Gerald24

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Jan 29, 2006
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We have changed enough rules here in Canada to accomadate Muslims, The only thing that needs changed now is our immagration policy. The Muslims are nothing but trouble! All you have to do is turn on the news and or get on the internet and the facts speak for themselves. I don't want them here in Canada and I hope the riots continue on so the whole world turns on them.
 

FiveParadox

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Gerald24, once again it would be too easy to infer from your posts that you are anti-all-Muslims. Would you really assert that you have a hatred for each and every Muslim? That each and every Muslim should be deported from Canada?
 

Machjo

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"immigrants from muslim countries should be rigoursly screened before they even step on Canadian soil. The riots in France and other incidents in Europe have cause them to act rather than react. Sadly Canada has the passive attitude "it will never happen to us".

To some extent I fully agree with the principle at least. I beleive I might have met Ahmed Ressam a year or two before he was caught at the US border, but I can't be sure. I was at a Muslim holiday celebration to which I was invited. The one who'd invited me was a little embarrassed afterwards when it turned out only Muslims could attend. Apparently in Ethiopia, they welcome non-Muslims to the celebration. So I accepted to wait outside. Later, as some stepped out, we had some small talk and one man, very friendly, asked when I'd become a Muslim. I'd answered very politely that I'm not, to which he and a few others suddently turned their backs on me and walked away. Another did apprach me however and didn't seem to be bothered by my being a "Kafir". So that is one example.

Anotehr freidn told me about a funeral in Canada when one Muslim suddenly started a diatribe about how if Muslims had nuclear weapons, the world would respect them more!

I myself had sufferred from extreme harrassement, and another person had sufferred threats, again in Canada.

And a few others whom I'd known were closet non-Muslims! And there are even a few of these cloaset non-muslims who will wear the veil whenever they are near their home community.

So yes, the situation in Canada is serious! Now we can either do nothing until something happens as in Europe, in which case we would then have no choice but to limit immigration form Islamic countries, or we can be pro-active so that we can cuntinue to allow Muslim immigration in future.

One recommendation of mine might include:

Muslim children being required to study the Qur'an and ahadith in school. As it stands now, many Muslims who can't read a word of Arabic, will read it in Arabic, and this includes educated engineers (I've met them myself, and they are proud of this fact!). To know the meaning of the text they will ask their imam; needless to say, that makes the imam extremely powerful and influential. Their respect for the imam as a "scholar" is also higher than one could ever find among any Christian denomination I've ever come across before! So certainly while Islam might be permissible, this worship of ecclesiastics is certainly dangerous.

Should Muslim children be required to study the Qur'an as literature, in a language they understand, this could help make them more independant thinkers. To take an example, I remember one woman who had converted from protestantism to Islam, and had brought that protestant ethic of reading the scriptures for herself and judging their meaning for herself with her. Needless to say, this really ticked off the Arab community, because every time they tried to tell her about the Islam, she'd always ask which book, which verse. it annoyed the hell out of them, but it also meant that the imam or any other Muslim couldn't pull the wool over her eyes as they could over those who wasted their time reading in a language they couldn't even understand and then ask the almighty immam what it meant.

I believe such a policy could break the power and influence of Canada's imams within a generation. Don't be surprised however if these very imams try to incite the Muslim community to oppose such.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Re: RE: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

Gerald24 said:
We have changed enough rules here in Canada to accomadate Muslims, The only thing that needs changed now is our immagration policy. The Muslims are nothing but trouble! All you have to do is turn on the news and or get on the internet and the facts speak for themselves. I don't want them here in Canada and I hope the riots continue on so the whole world turns on them.

That's mighty kind of you.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Gerald24

You are treading very close to the line here. I will ask you once to tone down the bigoted stuff you are spouting here. You will get no other warning.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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Gerald24, I would urge you to watch the line between expressing your distruct for followers of the Muslim faith, and inciting hatred toward them — which I would assert you are on the borderline of doing. Such comments in Canada can get you up to two years in prison.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Re: RE: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

The story is not about deporting people for their religion; rather, it is deporting people for their actions and beliefs that are incompatible with Western civilization.

There is a difference.


Just a minor point here. Islam had made a great contribution to the renaissance, Muslim Spain having been the most advanced nation in Europe at one time! A few English words of Arabic origin:

algebra/ al-jibr.
chemistry/ al-khimr
alcohol (as in the chemical compound)/ Al-quhul
astronomy/ al-strunumi
etc.

So as for modern western civilization, it's effectively Muslim-based.
 

jimmoyer

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To take an example, I remember one woman who had converted from protestantism to Islam, and had brought that protestant ethic of reading the scriptures for herself...
----------------------------------machjo--------------

This brings up a point that those who are trying
to be tolerant and politically correct often
make a mistake about Islam:

Do not make the mistake that Islam and its surrounding
culture are separate.

The Catholic Church has always held that The Bible
was NOT the only source of knowlege regarding
God and Jesus, but rather the whole heritage of ideas
surrounding it.

This point was much protested by ALL the PROTESTANT
splinter groups.

And so no matter what your heritage, this PROTESTANT
view has blended into even those who aren't Christians, even those who are atheists, that the one text is
the only source for ISLAM.

The Koran is not the only source, but rather the whole
heritage of interpretations and writings and behaviors
that surround the Koran, but the Koran is NOT the
ONLY source of ISLAM.

And as it turns out, a great many muslims cannot
read the arabic of the Qur'an, because written arabic
is quite different from spoken arabic.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
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We should not, however, have the right to "dispel undesirables" en masse, in my opinion. For the Government of Canada to spontaneously rule that each and every Muslim is a threat to Canada, or is undesirable and, therefore should be deported and deemed ineligible for citizenship or residence would be unacceptable, un-Canadian, and inhumane.
 

Freethinker

Electoral Member
Jan 18, 2006
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Re: RE: Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe

FiveParadox said:
We should not, however, have the right to "dispel undesirables" en masse, in my opinion. For the Government of Canada to spontaneously rule that each and every Muslim is a threat to Canada, or is undesirable and, therefore should be deported and deemed ineligible for citizenship or residence would be unacceptable, un-Canadian, and inhumane.

I don't think I suggested any such thing. But known associates of terrorists and supporters like the Khadrs shouldn't be supported here. I bet they are not the only known terrorist associates in Canada. Why keep them?

Is terror a skillset that employers in Canada are short of?
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
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The paradox for FiveParadox is that law enforcement must "profile" immigrant applicants.

An old lady past 85 deserves less scrutiny
than a young man in his 20s coming from Libya,
or Egypt or Arabia (get used to the Saudi name going
away some day.)