Abuse video fuels Arab fury at West

[I think not]

DUBAI (Reuters) - Arab fury at the West intensified on Monday after images of British soldiers apparently beating Iraqi youths were aired in a region already inflamed by caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

Some Arabs said the video, like the Danish newspaper cartoons, was proof of the contempt the West held for Islam, the dominant faith in the Middle East.

They also said the beatings, which occurred in 2004 and were publicized by a British newspaper on Sunday, exposed the ugly side of Britain's presence in Iraq despite its efforts to put a "friendly face" on the occupation.

"This beating is all part of the same war on Islam that the West is carrying out these days," said Egyptian traffic policeman Gamal Bashir. "The (Prophet Mohammad) cartoons are part of the same war too."

The English-language Bahrain Tribune said the video could not have been aired at a worse time. "The Arab and Muslim world is already sitting on a powder keg over the offensive cartoons."

"The illusion of the British being a friendly force is no longer there. The grainy video has exposed the deep-seated animosity they too have for the Iraqis," it said.

The video, released by the News of the World, shows soldiers beating and kicking Iraqis, to the apparent delight of the cameraman.

MOCKERY OF DEMOCRACY

British troops have been seen as being more respectful of the sensitivities of Iraqis than U.S. forces in Iraq. Some Arabs also believe Britain, with its colonial history in the Middle East, is more sympathetic to their causes.

"Insults and degradation from so-called gentlemen," remarked popular Arab television channel Al Jazeera when it aired the video, calling the mistreatment "savagery."

British Prime Minister Tony Blair promised a full investigation into the incident, which some Arabs said mocked U.S. and British claims that they had brought democracy to Iraq after ending Saddam Hussein's brutal rule.

"Democracy must be practiced differently inside the West from outside, otherwise how can occupation troops who came to save a country from former tyranny do such a thing?" asked columnist Hani Wafa in the Saudi daily al-Riyadh.

Yemeni taxi driver Khaled Mohammed added: "This shows Britain's lies about respecting human rights and freeing Iraq."

British troops have been hit by abuse allegations, but none approaching the scale of the abuse U.S. soldiers inflicted on Iraqis at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison in 2004.

Qatari political analyst Abdulaziz Mahmoud said the violence portrayed in the video was similar to the "beatings that go on in police stations in the region all the time."

"The video itself is not a big deal, but it just adds fuel to the fire. Arabs are angry at the cartoons, the war on Iraq, the treatment of Palestinians and this is another incident."

Mazen Gallaf, a 31-year old Bahraini teacher, also said the video could further strain relations between Arabs and the West.

"These pictures are old ... This is a time of a clash between the Islamic and Western nations and not a good time at all to show such pictures," he said.

Protests have rocked several countries over the cartoons, some of which portray Prophet Mohammad as a terrorist.

(Additional reporting by Amil Khan in Cairo, Andrew Hammond in Riyadh, Odai Sirri in Doha and Isa Mubarak in Bahrain)

 

[MMMike]

So what? All the beheading videos fuel western fury at the Muslims. The difference? We're not burning down buildings, and they're not actively seeking to bring the perpetrators to justice. :twisted:

 

[Finder]

Well I'm pissed off like anyone should over any abuse! But year after year of the cultural of violance in the arab world. Not only with american and civilian prisoners but there own people. Like puplic beheading in Arabia, and the repressive nature of all the Arab nations. I'm getting less and less sypathetic to the middle east.

Though this doesn't mean we should remotely act or re-act like them. These abuse's by the Americans and British are crimal activies and I would have to say the war itself is to a greater extent.

 

[Mogz]

I saw the video and I can tell you what happened. The Brits snapped. Imagine being pelted with stones by the very people you're there to protect, all it takes is one of your buddies to snap and the whole section will snap. Does that make it right? No, of course not, but I can empathize with the Brits. The same thing happened with the Canadian Airborne in Somalia. After months of being robbed by the very people they were trying to help, a section captured and beat a Somali to death. While the actions of the Brits isn't becoming of trained soldiers, I wouldn't classify their actions in with internet beheadings and suicide bombings. I wouldn't even deem their actions criminal in every sense of the word. This video was shot in 2004 during the riots in Basra, riots that the Brits had to quell. Did the Brits break up this particular gathering? Yes. Did they do it properly? No. Criminal is a relative term. If the Brits had been out cruising the city in a Warrior looking for youth to beat up, that would be criminal. The Brits were acting on orders to supress the violent riots and a few took it to the extreme. Why when a group of police club down a bunch of hippies at the G8 summit is that acceptable, however when a section of soldiers beat the crap out of people hurling stones at them it's deemed criminal? Because everyone is looking for an excuse to deem the war evil. The War isn't criminal, not at all, it was a declared war against a Country in a pre-emptive strike against an out of control regime. Many fail to see that the Americans are taking global security very seriously. Gone are the days of introvert Americanism, here are the days of a global watchdog. The Americans were caught with their pants down in 2001, something they don't plan on letting happen again. Any person that didn't see pre-war Iraq as a global threat needs to pull their heads out. Any regime that uses chemical weapons on their own people isn't fit to exist in the 21st Century.

 

[aeon]

So what? All the beheading videos fuel western fury at the Muslims. The difference? We're not burning down buildings, and they're not actively seeking to bring the perpetrators to justice. :twisted:

But what guys like you don tunderstand, is the difference here, we arenot occupied based on a lie. :x

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Abuse video fuels Arab fury at West

The War isn't criminal, not at all, it was a declared war against a Country in a pre-emptive strike against an out of control regime. Many fail to see that the Americans are taking global security very seriously.

I dont know on which planet were you in the last 4 years, but here is kofi annan claiming that the war in iraq was illegal.


The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

 

[#juan]

Hi all

I am using a friend's computer on the lower mainland. I just saw the story. I didn't mean to usurp your topic. I will delete mine and post on yours.

 

[Mogz]

I dont know on which planet were you in the last 4 years, but here is kofi annan claiming that the war in iraq was illegal.


The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

The real one, unlike the fairy-tale one you live in...angels with chocolate wings I believe you called it in another post? Anywho, if Kofi Annan says it was illegal, I guess it is. This all considering he heads an organization that is all love and peace and rosebuds, that doesn't really take in to account the real world. He says right there in that article that from his standpoint and the U.N.s the war in Iraq is illegal. This is the same organization that had failed in the past to deem the Rwandan Genocide a war, and thus not allowing U.N. Peacekeepers to engage Hutu militants in the defence of Tutsi refugees. This is the organization that opposes armed conflict in Afghanistan, even though Afghanistan is the central breeding ground for terrorism in the World. This is the organization that has a Security Council, with the 5 permanent members holding veto power to prevent unjust wars. This Security Council's 5 permanent members are; The U.S., Britain, China, Russian, and France. Not a single member of this council used their veto power to prevent the war. If it was unjust, why only now, after 4 years is it declared as so? I'll tell you, because people in society are weak. Gone are the days when we stood behind our military and supported their actions if they meant a safer world for us. There are too many bleeding hearts in society, that dont realize the right for them to bitch and moan about war was earned through war. I'm not a warmonger, I don't like conflict, however I do accept that is has a place in society, and at times is justified. Was the war in Iraq legal? Yes, very much so. Do I support it? Not in every aspect, but I cherish my right to be free, and if invading Iraq and overthrowing it's former Government cements my freedom and prevents violence from reaching the shores of the Country I love, then so be it.

 

[Jersay]

This is the same organization that had failed in the past to deem the Rwandan Genocide a war, and thus not allowing U.N. Peacekeepers to engage Hutu militants in the defence of Tutsi refugees. This is the organization that opposes armed conflict in Afghanistan, even though Afghanistan is the central breeding ground for terrorism in the World. This is the organization that has a Security Council, with the 5 permanent members holding veto power to prevent unjust wars. This Security Council's 5 permanent members are; The U.S., Britain, China, Russian, and France. Not a single member of this council used their veto power to prevent the war. If it was unjust, why only now, after 4 years is it declared as so? I'll tell you, because people in society are weak. Gone are the days when we stood behind our military and supported their actions if they meant a safer world for us. There are too many bleeding hearts in society, that dont realize the right for them to bitch and moan about war was earned through war. I'm not a warmonger, I don't like conflict, however I do accept that is has a place in society, and at times is justified. Was the war in Iraq legal? Yes, very much so. Do I support it? Not in every aspect, but I cherish my right to be free, and if invading Iraq and overthrowing it's former Government cements my freedom and prevents violence from reaching the shores of the Country I love, then so be it.

Illegal war, America went in to find weapons of MD, but they didn't find anything. Then they make excuses.

We came up with the United Nations so that wars would be allowed with global backing, was rejected, so I don't care how powerful America is but it is an illegal war if it is not backed by the United Nations.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: Abuse video fuels Ara

We witness the failure of soldiers. Soldiers unwanted that should not be there. Again and again we see how the dehumanizing actions of the military play out.

The people are justly upset at what they see happening to their countrymen.

Invading Iraq did not make anybody in the west freer, or protect what so many have been led to believe is their freedom.

Warhead propaganda essentially always boils down to a full justification of violence and oppression of others for their own "freedom". If allowed to succeed, the warheads would achieve total illusion of freedom through contrast with all the "others" held in suppression by their forces.

(and don't try to paint the canadian airborne as something other than the group of extremist nutbar warheads they were)

 

[I think not]

Illegal war, America went in to find weapons of MD, but they didn't find anything. Then they make excuses.

We came up with the United Nations so that wars would be allowed with global backing, was rejected, so I don't care how powerful America is but it is an illegal war if it is not backed by the United Nations.

Well then Serbia was a bad move, we should of let them kill each other there also.

 

[Mogz]

Oy:

Illegal war, America went in to find weapons of MD, but they didn't find anything. Then they make excuses.

We came up with the United Nations so that wars would be allowed with global backing, was rejected, so I don't care how powerful America is but it is an illegal war if it is not backed by the United Nations.

I will give you that, the whole WMD thing was a farce. The West did have reason to believe WMD existed, however their intel was bad. The most they found was proof of a chemical warhead plant and something like 200 chemical shells. The U.N. justified the war at the beginning, only now, 4 years later, do they say it's illegal. So in theory the war is just now illegal, the last 4 years were sanctioned. The war was never popular in the U.N. but it was never stopped. The U.N. cannot make a call on a war just like I cannot make a call on brain surgery. The U.N.'s main platform is peace, how can that organization, which has failed in the past, deem if a war is just or not? The U.N. doesn't work, something the U.S. realized ages ago.

We witness the failure of soldiers. Soldiers unwanted that should not be there. Again and again we see how the dehumanizing actions of the military play out.

I find it funny how you blame the actions of a single section of soldiers on the military as a whole. The British Army is one of the best trained armies in the World, however the actions of less than 12 lead you to label the entire military as a failure. You make this call, clearly not a member of any military.

Invading Iraq did not make anybody in the west freer, or protect what so many have been led to believe is their freedom.

How long does it take until it's our problem? When invade Kuwait again? When they launch chemical warheads at Western targets? At what point do you stop bitching about the war and realize that our actions today are making a safer world for tomorrow? Do you honestly believe that Iraq and the whole region was better off with Saddam in charge?

(and don't try to paint the canadian airborne as something other than the group of extremist nutbar warheads they were)

Say what you want about the War in Iraq, thats your point of view. However you comment on an organization you don't even understand. You, like with the Brits, blame the actions of 16 men (one section), on the entire Regiment? My father served with 2 Commando, are you saying he was an extremist nutbar? A man with over 30 years service to this Country? A man with 7 U.N and NATO tours (that's 3 1/2 years of his life spent overseas). You sit there in your comfy computer chair and cast blame on a Regiment of over 900 men for the actions of less than 2% of them. Your view is just like the Liberal views at the time; they're all bad eggs. If you were informed you'd know the Airborne was a collection of the best trained infanteers in the Canadian Army. Men that could go further and do more in adverse situations. Yes, there were some oddballs, Matchee and Brown being two of them, however bad eggs exist everywhere; in Police Forces, the education system, medical systems, everywhere. If an RCMP officer is found to have beaten a youth to death, do you cast the whole RCMP as being extremist nutbars? I hope not. To sumize, the Airborne is gone, but what you may fail to realize is that many of it's members are still with the Canadian Forces (my father included). Many have gone on to serve with JTF-2, and will now be serving with the newly appointed Special Operations Regiment. In all 16 members of CAR were charged with regard to the Somalia Affair. 4 of them for direct involvment with Shidane Arone, the other 12 of various charges from failure to obey the Rules of Engagement to clerical errors.

 

[Mogz]

Well then Serbia was a bad move, we should of let them kill each other there also.

Oooh good point, i'd forgotten about that.

 

[Doryman]

Not going to post too much, since I'm just going to echo Mogz, but...

Blaming an entire military for the actions of a few is stupid. An organization that size is bound to have a few nutbars.

Also, people snap. We've all seen people in much better conditions than these soldiers do much more horrible things. Take Postal Workers. They have to deliver letters and packages, and every now and then one of them snaps from the pressure and hoses down some by-standers with an AK. Would you argue that we need the Post Office to ship out of America, since they're all violent savages?

Now, take the stress level of an average American postal worker, and compare it to the stress level of a British soldier in Iraq, facing rocket attacks and suicide bombs on a bad day, rocks, bottles, threats, and exclamations of hatred on a good day. This was bound to happen. It doesn't make all soldiers into monsters.

 

[Sassylassie]

Keep in mind we do not know what led up to these beatings. As a Military Wife whose spouse has served with the UN there are some things the governement can't explain in order to keep their troops safe. It is not uncommon for locals to sneak into a compound to steal and I don't mean food--or gather intel. The safety of the troops are comprimised every time one of these "Innocents" breaches security, a rock one day a bomb the next, it is so easy to judge from the safty of a computer chair. I would speculate that the British Solders reached a breaking point with these local lads and decided that a lesson needed to be learned using the same tactics as the local customs. As for the Air Borne, the unauthorized testing of drugs on these lads by their own government can't be over looked.

 

[Jersay]

Now with regards to the beatings.

Blaming the military for all the beatings is wrong. However, you have to look at the stress level of the British troops and what situations they were dealing with.

Then deal with the problems that deal with that platoon, or battalion, or go up as far as you have to go.

But caracel makes a good point, if you dehumanize someone to where you will abuse their human rights, there is something fundamentally wrong with the structure.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: Abuse video fuels Ara

I trained with the airborne and hence had the personal experience of what kind of operation they were (yes, that includes the average attitudes and personalities of the people there).

THINK ABOUT IT! What was the airborne? What kind of person would do well in the scenarios they were intended for? THINK ABOUT IT!

Liberal my backside!

More rationalizations for war. How nice. The same old rhetoric of "making the world safer". Sorry, that old lame song and game will gain you no ground here.

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Abuse video fuels Ara

I trained with the airborne and hence had the personal experience of what kind of operation they were (yes, that includes the average attitudes and personalities of the people there).

THINK ABOUT IT! What was the airborne? What kind of person would do well in the scenarios they were intended for? THINK ABOUT IT!

Liberal my backside!

More rationalizations for war. How nice. The same old rhetoric of "making the world safer". Sorry, that old lame song and game will gain you no ground here.

EXACTLY Mogz!! Haven't you read your history? Don't you know that Hitler was defeated with sit-ins, student protests and teenagers with witty placards!!

GOD how dumb can people be!!! Warmongers!!!!


:wink:


Sometimes war is necessary, people. Really, I don't see how that isn't clear...

 

[Jersay]

Doesn't matter if they were the best trained soldiers in the world. I have a warrant who was apart of the Air borne, and he is a tough guy and such but once he said he was apart of the Airborne I'm like, did he take part in Somalia and the abuse and killing of the Somali kid.

Just because you are the best, doesn't mean you are given leeway to abuse another persons human rights.

COnsidering one of them then tried to rob a armoured car or a bank and is now in jail, to me some of them were just petty thugs given guns and ordered to do whatever the hell they want to do.

Should they have been disbanded, no. There should have been an inquiry to see why they did the things they did, and what kind of culture there was in the military that would allow someone to torture and kill someone else.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: Abuse video fuels Ara

Disbanding was a good decision.

The airborne suffered from what all isolated extremist groups suffer from: polarization. They were a very close-knit, closed off group that was treated as the "elite" and thus were fueled to become more and more extreme.

The stories I could tell you would be similar to the bravado you will find in any such polarized group, be it a group you think highly of or a group you distain. THe group dynamics are the same, it is merely the group identity that is different. (and again, one must look carefully at the characteristics that a person has that would allow one to flourish in such an environment) It is self feeding, and sellf amplifying. If it was not for the Somalia incident, there would have been something else that would have broke into the news and led to disbanning the regiment. Consider the forces lucky the event that happened was not much worse, for it very well could have been.

If war is necessary Dory, why aren't YOU on the frontlines?