Israel tells world to reject Hamas

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
JERUSALEM - Israel's foreign minister on Sunday criticized Russia's invitation for Hamas leaders to visit Moscow for talks, urging the international community to stand firm in rejecting the militant group despite its victory in Palestinian elections.

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But Israeli officials said they did not plan a harsh response to the invitation, preferring instead to work to persuade Russian President Vladimir Putin to maintain international pressure on Hamas.

The invitation last week was Russia's latest effort to assert itself in Mideast peacemaking. It runs counter to the stand recently taken by the so-called Quartet of Mideast peace negotiators, comprising Russia, the U.S., the European Union and the U.N. The Quartet, which backs the "road map" peace plan, insisted it would not deal with a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, and threatened to withhold hundreds of millions of dollars in desperately needed aid to the cash-strapped government unless the group recognized Israel and renounced violence.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urged Russia to make it clear that Hamas must stop terror attacks. But France said it hoped Russia could help lead Hamas to accept a two-state solution.

Hamas has carried out scores of deadly attacks against Israelis in recent years, calling for the destruction of the Jewish state and its replacement with an Islamic nation. It is listed as a terror organization by the European Union and the United States.

Hamas leaders said they plan to travel to Moscow later this month.

"We are going to present our positions ... about the political developments and issues related to the rights of our people," Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza, said on Saturday.

Israel's acting prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said Israel would not deal with the incoming Palestinian government, even if Hamas stacks it with professionals with no connection to the group.

"The moment the Palestinian parliament is sworn in, the Palestinian Authority becomes a Hamas Authority," Olmert told his Cabinet on Sunday, according to a participant in the meeting who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it.

The parliament is to be sworn in Thursday, and Hamas expects to form a new Cabinet in coming weeks.

Russia's envoy to the Palestinians, Alexey Pogodin, met with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday and told reporters that Moscow would urge Hamas to moderate its stance.

The invitation has infuriated Israelis.

"The Russian position is currently not accepted in the international community," Acting Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told Israel Radio on Sunday. "Part of the danger is going down the slippery slope of first talking, then starting to understand why, then supporting with money, then granting legitimacy."

Hamas, while adhering to its violent ideology, has voiced willingness to agree to a long-term truce if Israel reciprocates. Hamas has largely honored a year-old cease-fire.

Livni cautioned against reading too much into the group's promises.

"There is no negotiation here with Hamas about what it will and will not agree to," she said.

Cabinet Minister Tzahi Hanegbi said Israel would try to persuade Putin that breaking with the major Western nations on Hamas "will diminish the efforts to make sure that Palestinians will not adopt the values and behavior of a terrorist organization."

But Russia's invitation would not cause a diplomatic breach with Israel, he said.

"We believe in dialogue, we believe in trying to convince, and we are not going to take any harsh measures," he said.

In the northern West Bank village of Nebe Elias, Hebrew graffiti scrawled on a mosque that equated the Prophet Muhammad with a pig led to a protest and clashes with Israeli troops that left three Palestinians and an Israeli woman injured.

Also Sunday, Israel reopened the vital Erez crossing between Gaza and Israel, the military said. The crossing, used by Palestinian workers to reach jobs in Israel, was closed after armed Palestinians attacked it on Thursday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060212...MkhQiGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-


Now I have several problems with this.

i might be wrong, correct me if I am, but it appears that Israel would have nothing to do with Hamas if they stop violence, or stack the parliment with politicians who have nothing to do with violence. Kind of like Sein Finn and the IRA, I don't think that is a wise thing to do.

And, if World leaders want to maintain contact with Hamas to moderate its stance, which it appears they are trying to do, they might have hidden agendas, why shouldn't they.

It just seems it shows that Israel only believes in democracy when it supports them.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
RE: Israel tells world to

1. It's Sinn Fein. Furthermore at the height of the Irish Crisis, Sinn Fein actually did support the IRA through funding. Although they distanced themselves publically, many high ranking members funded the IRA and even participated in their operations. The exact same situation we're seeing with Hamas today.

2. Democracy doesn't alawys work, especially in religiously blind nations like in the Middle East. You get a bunch of people blinded by piousness and they'll vote anyway they're influenced to. Also if you'll recall, Adolf Hitler was democratically elected to lead Germany. Look how that turned out. I agree with Israel. Hamas, as a Governing party, should now abandon this "liquification of Israel" platform and get on with running their Country. I agree that if Hamas renounces violence against Israel, they could be a real asset to the peace process. However if they're unwilling to let Israel exist then they shouldn't be supported by other nations, that'd be paramount to us supporting the German Government from 1933 to 1945.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
RE: Israel tells world to

But it appears that Israel wouldn't even support a Hamas that rejects violence and allows Israel to exist.

Would you after decades of living in fear of them?
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Would you after decades of living in fear of them?

I wouldn't trust them, and would respond with military raids if they attacked me, but to rule a moderate Hamas out will never solve the peace process because they already put too many hurdles ahead of the Palestinian Authority.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
If there is to be a true peace process in the Middle East, then I would assert that the Hamas Government should be recognized as a governing power, insofar as they do not provide a reason, within the course of their mandate, to react otherwise.
 

nitzomoe

Electoral Member
Dec 31, 2004
334
0
16
Toronto
Re: RE: Israel tells world to

Mogz said:
Would you after decades of living in fear of them?

after decades of living in constat fear of teh IDF i dont noe why moderate palestinians even exist.

What does it matter anyway Palestine has always been ignored at the UN so it doesnt really matter whether ppl even listen to israel's foreign ministry or not, the fact is these ppl are being abondoned, sure we give charity to them so we can feel better about it and we can ignore their problems but nobodys going to really help them anytime soon.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Our Members of Parliament should invite delegates from Israel to discuss the vision of their Government, and we should decide from there whether or not to support them, recognize them or whether to proceed on a strategy of non-recognition entirely.
 

Colin

New Member
Jun 20, 2005
47
0
6
Re: RE: Israel tells world to

nitzomoe said:
Mogz said:
Would you after decades of living in fear of them?

after decades of living in constat fear of teh IDF i dont noe why moderate palestinians even exist.

What does it matter anyway Palestine has always been ignored at the UN so it doesnt really matter whether ppl even listen to israel's foreign ministry or not, the fact is these ppl are being abondoned, sure we give charity to them so we can feel better about it and we can ignore their problems but nobodys going to really help them anytime soon.

Palestine was not ignored, they where indeed offered a nation at the same time as Isreal, they refused. I don't think this has anything to do with having their own nation but rather the eradication of Isreal and the consumption of their territory. So how do we help them, they don't want any land other then the land that is rightfully recongnized as Isreal. It is truely sad that we defend people who have abandoned all right to be defended. Though it is a new generation, so maybe they would accept an offer of land, but I doubt it, they hate Isreal more then they want land.
 

nitzomoe

Electoral Member
Dec 31, 2004
334
0
16
Toronto
Re: RE: Israel tells world to

Colin said:
Palestine was not ignored, they where indeed offered a nation at the same time as Isreal, they refused. I don't think this has anything to do with having their own nation but rather the eradication of Isreal and the consumption of their territory. So how do we help them, they don't want any land other then the land that is rightfully recongnized as Isreal. It is truely sad that we defend people who have abandoned all right to be defended. Though it is a new generation, so maybe they would accept an offer of land, but I doubt it, they hate Isreal more then they want land.

every single time a discussion liek this occurs there are ppl on this board who it would seem intentionally mistake the facts of this scene and make up whatever fits their own ideas.

We did marginlize them and thats a fact, only recently do ppl even noe who they and what they noe is all negative and yes they want land exactly along the 1967 borders so they dont want everything. If Israeli negotiated as fairly as the media amkes them out to be then we would have a Palestine today, because of israeli leaders deceptive negotiations especially their deals for land concessations we have this sort of problem.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
3,786
0
36
Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Israel tells world to

Numure said:
But but, isnt America doing war in the middle east to spread democracy? Why arnt you respecting democracy in Palestine?

It's only considered democracy after the American's have bombed away your infrastructure and indestry. :twisted:
 

aeon

Council Member
Jan 17, 2006
1,348
0
36
Re: RE: Israel tells world to

Mogz said:
But it appears that Israel wouldn't even support a Hamas that rejects violence and allows Israel to exist.

Would you after decades of living in fear of them?


Who is living in fear??


950 israelis are dead since 2000
3500 palestinians are dead since 2000



Since September 28, 2000:

383 Palestinian children (under the age of 18 ) have been killed by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers, i.e. almost 19% of the total Palestinians killed (figure at 21 November 2002);
Approximately 36% of total Palestinians injured (estimated at more than 41,000) are children;
86 of these children were under the age of ten;
21 infants under the age of 12 months have been killed;
500 Palestinian children have been permanently disabled due to Israeli attacks.




The Right to Education

The Israeli army’s widespread destruction of schools, the forced closure of educational institutes, the ever- present danger to school children and staff attempting to continue normal education, together demonstrate the Israeli government’s complete violation of the right of Palestinian children to an education. For example:

Since September 2000:
? 2,610 pupils have been wounded on their way to or from school;
? 245 Palestinian students and school children have been killed and 166 students and 75 teachers have been arrested
Between January and July 2002, Israeli military forces occupied 18 schools in the West Bank, converting them to military bases or prisons;
In Hebron alone, four schools have been converted to military bases, with three still under Israeli control (as of December 2002), denying 1,920 students access to their schools;
Between January and June 2002, 24 schools were heavily shelled by the Israeli military;
Since 29 March 2002, the education process has been completely paralyzed in 850 schools;
Since September 2000, 197 schools have been damaged, 11 schools completely destroyed and 9 vandalized;
From 29 March to 1 May 2002: 1,289 schools were closed, 45,000 tawjihi students supposed to take the general exam in June were prevented from accessing their schools, and 54,730 teaching sessions per day were lost due to complete cessation of classes in major West Bank towns during Israeli military operations1



The Right to Health

The Israeli occupation, in particular widespread closure, has paralyzed the Palestinian health system. Children are particularly vulnerable to this policy of collective punishment. Internal closures have severely disrupted health plans which affect over 500,000 children. These include vaccination programmes, dental examinations and early diagnosis programmes for children when starting schools.

During the first two months of the intifada, the rate of upper respiratory infections in children increased from 20% to 40%. Almost 60% of children in Gaza suffer parasitic infections.
Public services such as water and sanitation have deteriorated rapidly throughout the Intifada, increasing the frequency of water borne diseases. For example, in a two week period in January 2001, over 40,000 children under 5 year suffered from diarrhoea.2
Since the beginning of the current Intifada, Palestinian children have been exposed to extreme violence: killings, shooting, harassment, displacement and destruction of their homes and schools
– all of which has had a serious psychological effect on children. An overwhelming number of Palestinian children show symptoms of trauma such as sleep disorders, nervousness, decrease in appetite and weight, feelings of hopelessness and frustration, and abnormal thoughts of death.3
Half a million Palestinian children have been prevented from receiving required vaccinations due to closure and invasions.
There have been 36 cases of Palestinian women in labor delayed at checkpoints and refused permission to reach medical facilities or for ambulances to reach them. At least 14 of these women gave birth at the checkpoint with eight of the births resulting in the death of the newborn infants.



-Approximately 75% of Palestinians currently live below the poverty line of $2 per day.
-More than 364,000 children have suffered directly due to the reduction in income of their main source of support, with malnutrition rates for Palestinian children currently at 22%
-Thousands of Palestinian children have been made homeless. -During the Israeli invasion of the West Bank in March/April 2002, at least 2000 Palestinian children in the Jenin refugee camp were made homeless when 700 housing units were completely destroyed by the Israeli army.


http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/factsheet_children.htm




Pathetic, expecting palestinians to be angel with chocolate wings, when you see how they live, is a proof that those who support israel are a bunch of ignorant morons.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Palestine was not ignored, they where indeed offered a nation at the same time as Isreal, they refused. I don't think this has anything to do with having their own nation but rather the eradication of Isreal and the consumption of their territory. So how do we help them, they don't want any land other then the land that is rightfully recongnized as Isreal. It is truely sad that we defend people who have abandoned all right to be defended. Though it is a new generation, so maybe they would accept an offer of land, but I doubt it, they hate Isreal more then they want land.

The palestinians want what is the 1967 borders. That is a known fact. So that is Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Now, I would say that the Palestinians are the ones living in fear, because of the erratic fire of Israeli bombers, and soldiers. When you live in a highly densified society, people are not going to get out of their way of you.

The IDF has been known to have killed innocent civilians, and POWs it is a known fact throughout its history. Just check out the history section I've got something on it.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
That's because Arab armies invaded Israel to, and I quote, "Throw them into the sea and drown", and got their asses kicked.

Yes and no.

Yes, they tried to kick Israel and lost.

However, Israeli borders are suppose to be from 1948, the rest is occupied territory. And like SOuthern Lebanon, Arab powers, and the Palestinians will like to see it returned.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
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The Evil Empire
You forget Egypt's little expedition, and Jordans and Syrias, they tried to take over Israel and failed.....again. Israel pushed them back and gained more land, AND, let's not forget Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt as an agreement of peace. That's all it takes Jersay, a peace agreement. Israel and Egypt have never broken the peace agreement, neither has Jordan and Israel. History is against you.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
You forget Egypt's little expedition, and Jordans and Syrias, they tried to take over Israel and failed.....again. Israel pushed them back and gained more land, AND, let's not forget Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt as an agreement of peace. That's all it takes Jersay, a peace agreement. Israel and Egypt have never broken the peace agreement, neither has Jordan and Israel. History is against you.

No history is with me.

So, if Israel had an agreement with Eqypt and Jordan, which is good,

why then when the Oslo accords were signed, didn't they give up Gaza and the West Bank. The recognized the Palestinian Authority, they let Yasser Arafat run the Palestinian territories, but they didn't want to give it up.

So history is against you, if this was done with Oslo we wouldn't be in this mess now.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
History says, the UN carved out Palestine.

History says, the Arab armies invaded Israel, several times.

History says, Israel, Jordan and Egypt enjoy peace after signing peace agreements.

History says, the Arabs don't like the Palestinians otherwise they would have done something about it by now, they just hate the Jews more.

No, I think history speaks for itself.