CRIMINALIZE War !!
- Thread starter Ocean Breeze
- Start date
Actually that would be nice.
Honorable too.
But of course, I gotta be the bad guy
to remind you of the paradox.
Criminalize war ?
If you make it a crime, then what have you done?
You have made it a crime.
We have never eradicated crime.
Have we?
If you've ever seen the movie "Minority Report",
then you'll realize how repressive we must
become to do what it takes to totally wipe out
crime and its much uglier gargantuan cousin, war.
Do you realize we will unwittingly create
such an interlocking vice grip on the human race
to make it next to impossible to commit a crime,
or war?
It's almost the law of physics where lack of war
equals mind numbing programmed repression
either by cultural attitude enforcement or state
imposed enforcement.
This gets deep.
In more ways than one, LOL.
I honor your wishes and hopes, but the
essential nature of nature itself is such a primeval,
brutal fundamentalist thing that we who grow
up relatively comfortable in our convenient lives
actually divorce ourselves from the reality
of NATURE.
This is no excuse, and not meant as one.
It's paradox.
Honorable too.
But of course, I gotta be the bad guy
to remind you of the paradox.
Criminalize war ?
If you make it a crime, then what have you done?
You have made it a crime.
We have never eradicated crime.
Have we?
If you've ever seen the movie "Minority Report",
then you'll realize how repressive we must
become to do what it takes to totally wipe out
crime and its much uglier gargantuan cousin, war.
Do you realize we will unwittingly create
such an interlocking vice grip on the human race
to make it next to impossible to commit a crime,
or war?
It's almost the law of physics where lack of war
equals mind numbing programmed repression
either by cultural attitude enforcement or state
imposed enforcement.
This gets deep.
In more ways than one, LOL.
I honor your wishes and hopes, but the
essential nature of nature itself is such a primeval,
brutal fundamentalist thing that we who grow
up relatively comfortable in our convenient lives
actually divorce ourselves from the reality
of NATURE.
This is no excuse, and not meant as one.
It's paradox.
In addition looking at the history and evolvement
of mankind, we look at how we were hunters and
gatherers and we killed what we ate ---both
animal life and plant life were killed.
Nowadays, others harvest this food for us and this
division of labor of others doing the dirty deed
for your dinner table removes us unknowingly from
the NATURE.
We further divorce ourselves from the hostile reality
of nature by building comfortable homes, improvising
ease of transportation where we speed around
in a bubble to the next destination.
This broadcast is Brought to you
by the Discovery Channel.
It's what's for dinner.
Hiking in the woods up to the mountain
to see the night sky unpolluted by light
is the only activity that might
remind us of something huge, something large.
of mankind, we look at how we were hunters and
gatherers and we killed what we ate ---both
animal life and plant life were killed.
Nowadays, others harvest this food for us and this
division of labor of others doing the dirty deed
for your dinner table removes us unknowingly from
the NATURE.
We further divorce ourselves from the hostile reality
of nature by building comfortable homes, improvising
ease of transportation where we speed around
in a bubble to the next destination.
This broadcast is Brought to you
by the Discovery Channel.
It's what's for dinner.
Hiking in the woods up to the mountain
to see the night sky unpolluted by light
is the only activity that might
remind us of something huge, something large.
i agree jim.
it is not laws, but enforcement that is key. just making war an official crime does not prevent it from happening.
Further, humanity has yet to experience a prolonged period of peace in all its history. Social labelling is not going to be the thing that changes things.
We do need strife to initiate change and adaptation, no stife, differences of position, etc leads us nowhere. Now we should at some point reach the ability to settle our differences without bloodshed, but that time is still a ways off unfortunately because it is contrary to human nature. Things that run against the nature of humanity, no matter how well intended and planned, ultimately fail.
it is not laws, but enforcement that is key. just making war an official crime does not prevent it from happening.
Further, humanity has yet to experience a prolonged period of peace in all its history. Social labelling is not going to be the thing that changes things.
We do need strife to initiate change and adaptation, no stife, differences of position, etc leads us nowhere. Now we should at some point reach the ability to settle our differences without bloodshed, but that time is still a ways off unfortunately because it is contrary to human nature. Things that run against the nature of humanity, no matter how well intended and planned, ultimately fail.
Re: RE: CRIMINALIZE War !!
So , why bother having any laws at all??? What is the difference between civilized ,humane behavior and pathological criminal behavior???
Strife is one thing...........mass murder aka war is something else. Sorry, but will stay OUTSIDE your frame of reference. 'human nature " cannot be used as an excuse/defence for criminal, destructive conduct. We HAVE evolved more than that........but there remain the stragglers- slow learners???- who still think with their guns, muscles, and war machinery.
Pre-emptive invasions -based on LIES are illegal, unethical ,immoral etc... and are that for a reason.......but if it has to take more legal strategy to deter such atrocities.......(and that is what they are......) more power to the minds that be.
it boggles the mind that society is becoming sensitized to such invasions now. Effective use of fear can do that to a population. ......excessive secrecy factors in too.
But Humanity MUST address the criminality of invasions......and that the laws apply to ALL nations. Otherwise every lunatic on this planet that ever started a war was "justified". ........and we have seen some horrific results of every war.
Mankind has BRAINS........and it is about time he learned to USE them.
the caracal kid said:
So , why bother having any laws at all??? What is the difference between civilized ,humane behavior and pathological criminal behavior???
Strife is one thing...........mass murder aka war is something else. Sorry, but will stay OUTSIDE your frame of reference. 'human nature " cannot be used as an excuse/defence for criminal, destructive conduct. We HAVE evolved more than that........but there remain the stragglers- slow learners???- who still think with their guns, muscles, and war machinery.
Pre-emptive invasions -based on LIES are illegal, unethical ,immoral etc... and are that for a reason.......but if it has to take more legal strategy to deter such atrocities.......(and that is what they are......) more power to the minds that be.
it boggles the mind that society is becoming sensitized to such invasions now. Effective use of fear can do that to a population. ......excessive secrecy factors in too.
But Humanity MUST address the criminality of invasions......and that the laws apply to ALL nations. Otherwise every lunatic on this planet that ever started a war was "justified". ........and we have seen some horrific results of every war.
Mankind has BRAINS........and it is about time he learned to USE them.
the difference is merely in what those in charge endorse.
society is a very thin veil placed over the true humanity.
i am not desensitised. i see violence and killing as abhorent. I see one death or 1000 deaths for a cause still as death, and not as justifiable. But there is no place for pacificts in this world so we pacifists live our way and try to have the world see things differently but so long as material is more valued than life, so long as excess and greed are man's driving forces, so long as people think the ends justify the means.... humanity is still an animalistic creature. The aggression that drives the socially desired effects also drives the socially undesired effects. The roots of what you want man to be and what you do not want him to be are the same.
How do you think enforcement of warring would occur? An unrelenting hostile force could only be taken down by warring, and thus you are conveniently rationalizing for your purpose that which you would deem a crime. Would you also throw yourself on an court for warring in the name of stopping warring, or are you one of the "good guys"? So long as there are aggressors, you will not be able to achieve these lofty goals. Aggression is a part of humanity and thus you are stuck with it for now.
It would be better to engage in social engineering and equalizing of all peoples than persue ineffectual labels.
peace. seriously.
society is a very thin veil placed over the true humanity.
i am not desensitised. i see violence and killing as abhorent. I see one death or 1000 deaths for a cause still as death, and not as justifiable. But there is no place for pacificts in this world so we pacifists live our way and try to have the world see things differently but so long as material is more valued than life, so long as excess and greed are man's driving forces, so long as people think the ends justify the means.... humanity is still an animalistic creature. The aggression that drives the socially desired effects also drives the socially undesired effects. The roots of what you want man to be and what you do not want him to be are the same.
How do you think enforcement of warring would occur? An unrelenting hostile force could only be taken down by warring, and thus you are conveniently rationalizing for your purpose that which you would deem a crime. Would you also throw yourself on an court for warring in the name of stopping warring, or are you one of the "good guys"? So long as there are aggressors, you will not be able to achieve these lofty goals. Aggression is a part of humanity and thus you are stuck with it for now.
It would be better to engage in social engineering and equalizing of all peoples than persue ineffectual labels.
peace. seriously.
Re: RE: CRIMINALIZE War !!
ok........speaking of the basic humanoid , stripped of civility and reduced to the feral instincts........you have some very good points. It does not take much to do just that......strip people into the survival mode.....which is basic instinct.
The primal of the humanoid functions on the Id level of "ME, I , & Mine " ......where he/she is still the centre of the universe. and regressed to an earlier state of developement. Socialization conditioning/skills can be stripped away in any situation of stress or threat.
ergo ...........any threat is such a viable form of humanoid manipulation. and politicians bargain on that one.
but apart from all that .....still think that any pre-emptive invasion should be a CRIMINAL act of the highest order and the perps tried in International courts.
somehow mankind must start to evolved beyond the savage beast he can be.....or that is lying dormant within. Social learning process, and better laws.(consequences for destructive conduct)
the caracal kid said:
ok........speaking of the basic humanoid , stripped of civility and reduced to the feral instincts........you have some very good points. It does not take much to do just that......strip people into the survival mode.....which is basic instinct.
The primal of the humanoid functions on the Id level of "ME, I , & Mine " ......where he/she is still the centre of the universe. and regressed to an earlier state of developement. Socialization conditioning/skills can be stripped away in any situation of stress or threat.
ergo ...........any threat is such a viable form of humanoid manipulation. and politicians bargain on that one.
but apart from all that .....still think that any pre-emptive invasion should be a CRIMINAL act of the highest order and the perps tried in International courts.
somehow mankind must start to evolved beyond the savage beast he can be.....or that is lying dormant within. Social learning process, and better laws.(consequences for destructive conduct)
War is illegal under international law as per the Kellogg-Briand Pact. But it continues because too many people profit from it.
Therefore, the best deterrent to war is to impose a 100 % excess profit tax on all war profits.
Therefore, the best deterrent to war is to impose a 100 % excess profit tax on all war profits.
Whos going to police the world? The United Nations? They're doing a smashing job of sitting idly by discussing promoting world trade while wars and genocide are being committed. Or maybe some strong super power can guide us into a new golden age. Oh wait the U.S.A. seems to be trying that, and it isn't really working either. Well maybe we could try the economic approach. No international corporations are fueled by profit not altruism. Hmmm maybe ideological authority. Oh wait crusades, inquisitions. . .
methinks humanity might be an uncontrollable chaotic mess.
methinks humanity might be an uncontrollable chaotic mess.
Re: RE: CRIMINALIZE War !!
Excellent point. The best deterrant seems to lie .....not with the scruples etc of mankind........but the MONEY /PROFIT margin.
Taxing is one way. Or all profits of war go to the nation that has been attacked. /invaded. ........so after being destroyed, the nation's populaton can rebuild. (NOT the shagging invader)
gopher said:
Excellent point. The best deterrant seems to lie .....not with the scruples etc of mankind........but the MONEY /PROFIT margin.
Taxing is one way. Or all profits of war go to the nation that has been attacked. /invaded. ........so after being destroyed, the nation's populaton can rebuild. (NOT the shagging invader)
are you implying that the threat of war is a form of policing the world.??
Maybe the world had better grow up and start policing itself. Yes........it is scary how the UN sat back and let the US invade two nations.......pre-emptively and one entirely on a pack of lies...
And with Bolton at the UN......you can just imagine what form it might take under his watch.
I guess as long as there is LUST FOR POWER and CONTROL.......there will be wars..........Not sure that this planet will be able to support life for another hundred thousand years now..... not at the rate selfish , greedy and power hungry humanoids are going at it.
wait a sec............are you under the impression that the US is "policing" the world??? It is trying to CONTROL it .....and using war /threats to do it. But constructive policing as in focussing on peace keeping........???? As in mediating a crisis into a constructive resolution??? ( quite the opposite.......and it does not take a rocket scientist to see how destructive it has been.)
Human conflict has really been about one thing, control for resources. The mindset doesn't matter because the need for resources will outweigh any and all moral factors. All resources are limited, while need is infinite, hence the ever growing need. It is this competition for resources that generates wars, no matter what justification people seem to cling to (freedom, defense, honor, god etc). Besides humans are not the only species to engage in wars, even mindless drones become soldiers for the hive when necessary.
No I have no delusions about American Hegemony, but I think you have misread me. Policing,enforcing, controlling, it all amounts to the same thing. Does it really matter what word I use to describe US foreign policy?
Of course this isn't just an American policy. Historically all large nations like to throw their wight around. What about Britain controlling India, or France controlling it's African colonies, or any number of examples from history. Americans only get a bad rap because they're the big boys now. In truth I almost feel sorry for them. They live in an empire past it's zenith. Within twenty years the industrialised nations of India and China will surpass the US economically. Both will sport massive populations(billions), have a modern arsenal(they already have nukes), and the drive to expand(billions of mouths to feed).
Re: RE: CRIMINALIZE War !!
Happy Dec 25th :santa: papa.....
You raise excellent points. The massive populations and diminishing resources .......equate a challenging future.. The balance of power seems to be shifting even now. .....
"americans live in an empire past it's zenith"...........Very well articulated :!: . unfortunately , not sure they are aware of it...
Papachongo said:
Happy Dec 25th :santa: papa.....
You raise excellent points. The massive populations and diminishing resources .......equate a challenging future.. The balance of power seems to be shifting even now. .....
"americans live in an empire past it's zenith"...........Very well articulated :!: . unfortunately , not sure they are aware of it...
Oh they're aware of it. I think that is one of the reasons for such deeply ingrained paranoia in their society.
Whos going to police the world? The United Nations? They're doing a smashing job of sitting idly by discussing promoting world trade while wars and genocide are being committed.
-----------------------Papachongo------------------------
Actually, Merry Christmas, Papachongo --- you've
unwittingly hit upon the tool to control mankind.
World Trade.
It is what the protesters of the G8 and Word Trade
Conferences fear.
Once this system has fully brought all nations aboard,
the interlocking vice grip of world trade may
give great dis-incentive to hurt the peaceful trade
system.
Think about it.
Also think how tightly controlled the world will
become from this vice grip.
This is unfortunate, but the future holds many
surprises that trump anyone's ideological or partisan
orientation.
Both the left and the right ideologues will contribute
in their own way to the tyrannical control of
mankind.
Often freedom consists in being able to choose
between right and wrong, even choosing to make
a mistake --- that the ever-increasing regulated
society of the Left Socialists and the Right Capitalists seeks to prevent, giving into its tyrannical impulse to create man in its own image, each with their own
different methods of control.
When we prevent war, we will have a vice grip
on humanity.
The warlike Afar in the desert volcanic plains of Ethiopia
and Djibouti and Eritrea will be the only land
of the free.
-----------------------Papachongo------------------------
Actually, Merry Christmas, Papachongo --- you've
unwittingly hit upon the tool to control mankind.
World Trade.
It is what the protesters of the G8 and Word Trade
Conferences fear.
Once this system has fully brought all nations aboard,
the interlocking vice grip of world trade may
give great dis-incentive to hurt the peaceful trade
system.
Think about it.
Also think how tightly controlled the world will
become from this vice grip.
This is unfortunate, but the future holds many
surprises that trump anyone's ideological or partisan
orientation.
Both the left and the right ideologues will contribute
in their own way to the tyrannical control of
mankind.
Often freedom consists in being able to choose
between right and wrong, even choosing to make
a mistake --- that the ever-increasing regulated
society of the Left Socialists and the Right Capitalists seeks to prevent, giving into its tyrannical impulse to create man in its own image, each with their own
different methods of control.
When we prevent war, we will have a vice grip
on humanity.
The warlike Afar in the desert volcanic plains of Ethiopia
and Djibouti and Eritrea will be the only land
of the free.
The UN doesn't have a standing army. If the UN tried to raise an army the U.S. would veto it. The UN can only do what is possible. The U.S. has been trying to destroy the UN for the last twenty years at least. Wars and genocide are generally the U.S.'s doing.
and the frightening thing is that the US government and media has done a good job of convincing the US populace of how horrible the UN is.
Re: RE: CRIMINALIZE War !!
absolutely SPOT ON!! and this has been done with INTENT....just as selecting big mouth bully Bolton to represent the US at the UN is deliberate. The idea is .......well obvious , even to the uninitiated.
It is just as amazing to hear so many of the US populous parrot exactly what their malignant leadership says about the UN. (as if they were programmed to recite on command)
and THAT too is frightening. Implication being that the populous has stopped THINKING for itself..anymore.
and THAT empowers the US pharoh even more.......in reality and in his mind.
the caracal kid said:
absolutely SPOT ON!! and this has been done with INTENT....just as selecting big mouth bully Bolton to represent the US at the UN is deliberate. The idea is .......well obvious , even to the uninitiated.
It is just as amazing to hear so many of the US populous parrot exactly what their malignant leadership says about the UN. (as if they were programmed to recite on command)
and THAT too is frightening. Implication being that the populous has stopped THINKING for itself..anymore.
and THAT empowers the US pharoh even more.......in reality and in his mind.