http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1220-04.htm
shifting sands.
as in (excerpt)
gosh, did bush invade the wrong country??? :evil:
shifting sands.
as in (excerpt)
gosh, did bush invade the wrong country??? :evil:
Venezuela gives Exxon Ulitmatum.
- Thread starter Ocean Breeze
- Start date
Good! Last night CBC The National did a news story on the newly-elected leftist President of Bolovia. He calls himself "America's Worst Nightmare" and insists that American companies now exploiting their vast natural gas resources will "have to pay up". Things are't going well for The Empire (Bush-Cheney-"Oil Boys") at the moment; China has just scored an oil coup in Asia that the Americans thought they had all sewed up.
RE: Venezuela gives Exxon
Heh heh. I don't think anybody has done this to Exxon since Iran booted out the Shah.
Heh heh. I don't think anybody has done this to Exxon since Iran booted out the Shah.
Re: Venezuela gives Exxon Ultimatum.
GOOD!!!
might help if they took off their war cap and put on their THINKING cap..........but war /aggression seems all they know....and the entire world political dynamic is shifting.
* does anyone else get the impression that the US is a pariah on the world stage. They have a leader that operates in another universe......while things around him are changing faster than he can "CONTROL " them. His OBSESSION with Iraq might prove to be mighty costly ........to him and the american people.
GOOD!!!
might help if they took off their war cap and put on their THINKING cap..........but war /aggression seems all they know....and the entire world political dynamic is shifting.
* does anyone else get the impression that the US is a pariah on the world stage. They have a leader that operates in another universe......while things around him are changing faster than he can "CONTROL " them. His OBSESSION with Iraq might prove to be mighty costly ........to him and the american people.
Does the Bush family control Exxon?
Is it possible that Chavez' stake in Citgo would
have pushed out any competing oil company?
Is it possible that Chavez' stake in Citgo would
have pushed out any competing oil company?
RE: Venezuela gives Exxon
The US is heading for major failure. That's unfortunate because it's really going to suck to be their northern neighbour and largest trading partner when it happens, but the Bushites won't listen.
If Martin was smart, he'd be making friendly noises to Chavez and Lula right about now.
The US is heading for major failure. That's unfortunate because it's really going to suck to be their northern neighbour and largest trading partner when it happens, but the Bushites won't listen.
If Martin was smart, he'd be making friendly noises to Chavez and Lula right about now.
RE: Venezuela gives Exxon
Yup.
I am glad someone is gonna take the boots to Exxon, Exxon and the likes have had a free hand for too long.
Yup.
I am glad someone is gonna take the boots to Exxon, Exxon and the likes have had a free hand for too long.
Is it possible that Chavez' stake in Citgo might forbid any competitor oil company?
Is it possible that ONE oil company in a country
is good ?
Is it possible that ONE oil company in a country
is good ?
Re: RE: Venezuela gives Exxon Ulitmatum.
Well I know he's had problems in the past with oil companies. I don't think the nationaization of the oil indestry at least as a temp solution would be a bad thing.
jimmoyer said:
Well I know he's had problems in the past with oil companies. I don't think the nationaization of the oil indestry at least as a temp solution would be a bad thing.
Re: RE: Venezuela gives Exxon Ulitmatum.
I don't think Chavez means to drive other oil companies out. He just wants them to play by Venuzuelan rules. It is, after all, their oil.
Are you saying that Chavez personally owns stock in Citgo?
It may be academic. I think the U.S. will kill Chavez any time now.
jimmoyer said:
I don't think Chavez means to drive other oil companies out. He just wants them to play by Venuzuelan rules. It is, after all, their oil.
Are you saying that Chavez personally owns stock in Citgo?
It may be academic. I think the U.S. will kill Chavez any time now.
Well I hope they don't kill Chavez.
But a little history, for a moment.
Senator Church from Idaho, once interviewed
by Pres. Jimmy Carter as a Vice President running mate,
began a series of hearings in which Congress
passed a law renouncing Assassination as a policy in
the late 70s.
My conservative friends recently thought
assassination would be a lot more cheaper than
prosecuting a war and I reminded them about
this law.
No one cares. No one believes this.
Neither do I quite trust we've followed this law
since then, but American Presidents since, were
served notice by Congress that if they find out,
the matter is absolute cause for impeachment,
and also criminal prosecution will be persued.
So a President rarely trust the bureaucracy with
a secret and rarely trusts anyone outside the
inner circle and they gotta trust that the secret
will never come out.
That's our only hedge.
Weak. I know.
But this matter of Citgo in Venezuela as King
is quite partnered with Chavez.
Maybe we can depend upon him to be Philosopher King,
but history often proves that trust in one man, and his
one oil company monopoly ain't really a good
thing as the years go by. Time will tell.
But America has just got to stay out of it.
Look how JFK bungled the Bay of Pigs and
assassination attempts on Castro ?
Because he tried to do this skullduggery with
no logistical backup and as few people as possible'
to keep a secret. Well that didn't happen.
And they did the same thing with as few people
with as little logistical backup as possible to muck'
up the previous election of Chavez only because
they saw a chance with some opposition rebelling
in that country.
Bungled.
But a little history, for a moment.
Senator Church from Idaho, once interviewed
by Pres. Jimmy Carter as a Vice President running mate,
began a series of hearings in which Congress
passed a law renouncing Assassination as a policy in
the late 70s.
My conservative friends recently thought
assassination would be a lot more cheaper than
prosecuting a war and I reminded them about
this law.
No one cares. No one believes this.
Neither do I quite trust we've followed this law
since then, but American Presidents since, were
served notice by Congress that if they find out,
the matter is absolute cause for impeachment,
and also criminal prosecution will be persued.
So a President rarely trust the bureaucracy with
a secret and rarely trusts anyone outside the
inner circle and they gotta trust that the secret
will never come out.
That's our only hedge.
Weak. I know.
But this matter of Citgo in Venezuela as King
is quite partnered with Chavez.
Maybe we can depend upon him to be Philosopher King,
but history often proves that trust in one man, and his
one oil company monopoly ain't really a good
thing as the years go by. Time will tell.
But America has just got to stay out of it.
Look how JFK bungled the Bay of Pigs and
assassination attempts on Castro ?
Because he tried to do this skullduggery with
no logistical backup and as few people as possible'
to keep a secret. Well that didn't happen.
And they did the same thing with as few people
with as little logistical backup as possible to muck'
up the previous election of Chavez only because
they saw a chance with some opposition rebelling
in that country.
Bungled.
Re: RE: Venezuela gives Exxon
an aside.......but very relevant. Amazing how casually we can talk about the US KILLING a leader of a nation..........as if it is becoming an everyday experience.
The horrors of the US action in the past 5 yrs have hardened many people . People seem to be immune to even the most dastardly deed now. Nothing is shocking, tragic or disappointing anymore. The general "tolerance" level for violence has gone up exponentially.
.............that alone is a human tragedy of the past 5 yrs. War can become acceptable, Killing/assassinating can become acceptable.......(with some dutiful strokes of the legal speak) torture is no longer unacceptable..........as now they get to pick what kind.
One can only HOPE with a fervor that this new wave of the US will not be contageous to other nations.. as that will confirm the path of self destruction. :x
no1important said:
an aside.......but very relevant. Amazing how casually we can talk about the US KILLING a leader of a nation..........as if it is becoming an everyday experience.
The horrors of the US action in the past 5 yrs have hardened many people . People seem to be immune to even the most dastardly deed now. Nothing is shocking, tragic or disappointing anymore. The general "tolerance" level for violence has gone up exponentially.
.............that alone is a human tragedy of the past 5 yrs. War can become acceptable, Killing/assassinating can become acceptable.......(with some dutiful strokes of the legal speak) torture is no longer unacceptable..........as now they get to pick what kind.
One can only HOPE with a fervor that this new wave of the US will not be contageous to other nations.. as that will confirm the path of self destruction. :x
RE: Venezuela gives Exxon
If Chavez is assassinated the US will lose what little remaining control they have of South America. He's too established and too popular.
A few years ago they likely would have gotten away with it, but things have gone too far now. Killing Chavez would lose them the continent and a lot of the support they have in Africa and Asia as well.
If Chavez is assassinated the US will lose what little remaining control they have of South America. He's too established and too popular.
A few years ago they likely would have gotten away with it, but things have gone too far now. Killing Chavez would lose them the continent and a lot of the support they have in Africa and Asia as well.
OB said:
K - Ya, its a big problem.
Some call it "de-sensitization", where our tolerance for illegal and imoral acts goes up, we accept them.
Good observation OB.
De-sensitization is occuring on regular TV and media news - have you noticed how much more killing there is shown now? It was allways there, but it has increased since 9-11.
- how many times vast armies of [stupid?] men go at each other with crude weapons in movies, TV etc. They are "telling these stories" now for a reason - desensitization. It reflects the recent African genocides where crude weapons were used to kill millions of people.
- how the value of human life and dignity is utterly destroyed in sex crimes, labour slavery, brutal regimes, etc.We start to accept it as normal...
- how erosion of both freedoms and protection of privacy is occuring [spying , arrest and detention without trials, torture]
- more egs anyone?
These are working to se-sensitize us. This is where having a personal code of morality is essential to maintain human dignity. If you are depending on bibles and religion to provide morality, remember that it can be manipulated where large organisations are in play... people with things to lose...
Personal Morality has only one source of strength, and that is youreself - trust in that. You have known right from wrong since you were 5 yrs old, stick with the golden rules.
Speaking from my own pulpit today.... sorry about preaching,
Karlin.
K - Ya, its a big problem.
Some call it "de-sensitization", where our tolerance for illegal and imoral acts goes up, we accept them.
Good observation OB.
De-sensitization is occuring on regular TV and media news - have you noticed how much more killing there is shown now? It was allways there, but it has increased since 9-11.
- how many times vast armies of [stupid?] men go at each other with crude weapons in movies, TV etc. They are "telling these stories" now for a reason - desensitization. It reflects the recent African genocides where crude weapons were used to kill millions of people.
- how the value of human life and dignity is utterly destroyed in sex crimes, labour slavery, brutal regimes, etc.We start to accept it as normal...
- how erosion of both freedoms and protection of privacy is occuring [spying , arrest and detention without trials, torture]
- more egs anyone?
These are working to se-sensitize us. This is where having a personal code of morality is essential to maintain human dignity. If you are depending on bibles and religion to provide morality, remember that it can be manipulated where large organisations are in play... people with things to lose...
Personal Morality has only one source of strength, and that is youreself - trust in that. You have known right from wrong since you were 5 yrs old, stick with the golden rules.
Speaking from my own pulpit today.... sorry about preaching,
Karlin.
Karlin said:
that is exactly what it is called: desensitization. The same thing they do to the fine young men who apply to the military. How else could they do what they do?? Desensitization is part of the dehumanization /programming process......which leads to indifference, callousness , and a certain coldness in the human core.
thanks Karlin for pointing that out. :thumbleft:
an aside but pertains........... have you noticed the vast difference between how the US media portrays "news" compared to other nations?? Canada and the UK.....(which is accessable here) is understated and factual. No sensationalism. In the US EVERYTHING IS A DRAMA.........and if not then it is dramatized on TV.....(US channels).the teevee is the US finest medium for desensitizing the population. They don't HAVE to show coffins....... as the mere absence of them instills a more powerful message into the subconscious. and emphasizes the perpetual "hero worship" and idol worship that the US is programmed /channelled to do. The subliminal messaging is rapid and continuous. Little wonder........... :wink: ergo the dumbing down of a population that is addicted to DRAMA and SENSATIONALISM......
the result is almost a cult like population....
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/3541123.html
Dec. 21, 2005, 7:54PM
"As Latin America shifts left, U.S. risks being left behind
Region is too important for Bush to continue ignoring"
Thats great, I love the free world is showing a social conscience. I believe thats the way free people would go allways.
Canada might turn to the NDP finally, but media and Big USA influence keeps us from turning sharply.
Many Americans also have shown desire for socialist programs that benefit all. It is the corporate and industrial wealthy Elites that want it "non-socialist" so the inequality will continue to grow, with them coming out on top in all cases.
Like they say: "the poor are a great source of wealth". It doesn't work so well where people are more equal. [/url]
Dec. 21, 2005, 7:54PM
"As Latin America shifts left, U.S. risks being left behind
Region is too important for Bush to continue ignoring"
Thats great, I love the free world is showing a social conscience. I believe thats the way free people would go allways.
Canada might turn to the NDP finally, but media and Big USA influence keeps us from turning sharply.
Many Americans also have shown desire for socialist programs that benefit all. It is the corporate and industrial wealthy Elites that want it "non-socialist" so the inequality will continue to grow, with them coming out on top in all cases.
Like they say: "the poor are a great source of wealth". It doesn't work so well where people are more equal. [/url]
Well America is in a bubble, a sort of island nation.
We should re-examine.
In addition, the touting of socialistic entitlements
to benefit all always must meet the test
of finance, and this hard reality is bedeviling every
first world country as it seeks to keep business from
leaving so it can raise the money.
The spirit of our psychology is that profit gives
us each incentive, and that the biggest of companies
fall apart and die for many reasons in this
tough world.
We should re-examine.
In addition, the touting of socialistic entitlements
to benefit all always must meet the test
of finance, and this hard reality is bedeviling every
first world country as it seeks to keep business from
leaving so it can raise the money.
The spirit of our psychology is that profit gives
us each incentive, and that the biggest of companies
fall apart and die for many reasons in this
tough world.
