"Election-Iraq" turning nasty.

Ocean Breeze

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SHI'ITE VICTORIES IN IRAQ COULD HASTEN CIVIL WAR

The most influential cleric in Iraq, the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistanti, recently asked his fellow Shi'a to cast their votes this week for representatives of the Shi'ite religious groups currently controlling Iraq's interim government. If Shi'ite religious groups win big in this week's elections, a civil war would become significantly more likely, argues Ivan Eland, senior fellow and director of the Independent Institute's Center on Peace & Liberty.

"A permanent Shi'ite-Kurdish government may prove even more intransigent than the interim government in addressing Sunni concerns about being cut out of Iraq's oil revenues -- thus accelerating the incipient civil war in that nation," writes Eland in his latest op-ed.

Iraq's Shi'ite religious parties are heavily influenced and funded by Iran. Promoting democratic elections in Iraq thus "amount to letting U.S. soldiers die to make the world safe for theocracy," Eland writes.

To stave off a civil war, Eland urges U.S. policy-makers to announce a withdrawal of U.S. troops from in Iraq. Doing so, Eland argues, would increase the incentive for Iraq's Shi'ite-Kurdish government to reach a meaningful decision on the sharing of oil revenues with Shi'ites.

"The administration has dug itself so deeply into the Iraqi hole that no perfect solution exists to avoid the impending civil war. But this solution at least stops the digging and begins filling in some dirt," Eland concludes.
 

Colpy

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Ocean Breeze said:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1212-06.htm


seems the Iraqis involved in the coming "election" have learned well from their INVADERS. Following the US election style (aka House of horrors) is just part of it. :(

Do you really dislike democracy this much?

The Americans deserve praise for doing what they can to set up free and fair elections in Iraq.

I will bet you that the Iraqi people support American actions by getting out to vote in larger numbers than Canadians do.

What will you say then?
 

Ocean Breeze

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Colpy said:
Ocean Breeze said:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1212-06.htm


seems the Iraqis involved in the coming "election" have learned well from their INVADERS. Following the US election style (aka House of horrors) is just part of it. :(

Do you really dislike democracy this much?

The Americans deserve praise for doing what they can to set up free and fair elections in Iraq.

I will bet you that the Iraqi people support American actions by getting out to vote in larger numbers than Canadians do.

What will you say then?

IMPOSING "democracy" via WAR and KILLING is not about democracy. -----particularly after so many lies and modifications of the rational for the invasion.

It is not "democracy" .and not about democracy.........it is about HOW this was done. From the moment of the first lie.

Do you really think that the US will not take its pound of flesh from Iraq for doing them this "favor"??? Can't you hear the US BOASTING for the next decade about how they brought "democracy" into Iraq...........a vulnerable population due to yrs of sanctions and other destructive forces. The Iraqis have no choice on this. They will have the US version of "democracy" whether they want it or not. Whether it fits their culture , their region or not. That is how it will be because that is what the lunatic dictator wannabee in the white house wants. And he is going to get what HE wants no matter what he has to do for it . ......He could care less about the Iraqis

true change evolves from within.......and not from an outside gang via WAR. Shoving "democracy' down their throats ......is not "democracy"..

Iraq is in the process of being americanized. and in grave danger of losing its own identity. Iraqis might become tourist attractions like the Hawaiians are ....but the only difference is that no one was slaughtered in the Hawaiian exchange ( purchase)
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Ocean Breeze said:
Colpy said:
Ocean Breeze said:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1212-06.htm


seems the Iraqis involved in the coming "election" have learned well from their INVADERS. Following the US election style (aka House of horrors) is just part of it. :(

Do you really dislike democracy this much?

The Americans deserve praise for doing what they can to set up free and fair elections in Iraq.

I will bet you that the Iraqi people support American actions by getting out to vote in larger numbers than Canadians do.

What will you say then?

IMPOSING "democracy" via WAR and KILLING is not about democracy. -----particularly after so many lies and modificationso f the rational for the invasion.

It is not "democracy" .and not about democracy.........it is about HOW this was done. From the moment of the first lie.

Do you really think that the US will not take its pound of flesh from Iraq for doing them this "favor"???

true change evolves from within.......and not from an outside gang via WAR. Shoving "democracy' down their throats ......is not "democracy"..

Iraq is in the process of being americanized. and in grave danger of losing its own identity. Iraqis might become tourist attractions like the Hawaiians are ....but the only difference is that no one was slaughtered in the Hawaiian exchange ( purchase)

I have only this to say.....All democracy springs from war and killing.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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Colpy said:
Ocean Breeze said:
Colpy said:
Ocean Breeze said:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1212-06.htm


seems the Iraqis involved in the coming "election" have learned well from their INVADERS. Following the US election style (aka House of horrors) is just part of it. :(

Do you really dislike democracy this much?

The Americans deserve praise for doing what they can to set up free and fair elections in Iraq.

I will bet you that the Iraqi people support American actions by getting out to vote in larger numbers than Canadians do.

What will you say then?

IMPOSING "democracy" via WAR and KILLING is not about democracy. -----particularly after so many lies and modificationso f the rational for the invasion.

It is not "democracy" .and not about democracy.........it is about HOW this was done. From the moment of the first lie.

Do you really think that the US will not take its pound of flesh from Iraq for doing them this "favor"???

true change evolves from within.......and not from an outside gang via WAR. Shoving "democracy' down their throats ......is not "democracy"..

Iraq is in the process of being americanized. and in grave danger of losing its own identity. Iraqis might become tourist attractions like the Hawaiians are ....but the only difference is that no one was slaughtered in the Hawaiian exchange ( purchase)

I have only this to say.....All democracy springs from war and killing.





well as soon as the Iraqis can kick the US jerks OUT Of THIER nation....... they might begin the growing pains of building a democracy. Voting : not a democracy makes. But the US is sensationalizing it for THEIR own purposes.
 

jimmoyer

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Actually US is not sensationalizing the Vote.

And the US should stay to help out the moderates, the ones that don't want to risk their lives and the ones willing to be bold enough to speak out at great risk.

Your correct outrage (which I am more and more in support of) , Ocean Breeze, sometimes loses on the matter of analyzing with a cool head.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: "Election-Iraq" turning nasty.

jimmoyer said:
Actually US is not sensationalizing the Vote.

And the US should stay to help out the moderates, the ones that don't want to risk their lives and the ones willing to be bold enough to speak out at great risk.

Your correct outrage (which I am more and more in support of) , Ocean Breeze, sometimes loses on the matter of analyzing with a cool head.

Jimmy....... Emphatic outrage is done with calculated INTENT... :wink:

and Yep......the US IS sensationalizing "the vote"........just as it sensationalizes everything that might paint them in a favorable light. Compared to other nations........the US is a drama queen. :roll:
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

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Half of America thinks their own elections are fraudulently carried out, .... while at the same time they attempt to explain that the Iraqi/Afghanistan elections are fair and proper ....while carried out in a war zone, even.

Calm
 

jimmoyer

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Well some of these last points are spin.

You want to de-emphasize the Iraqi vote, and some of us like to think it's a start, a possibility, a way to begin anew.

Some of you are invested emotionally into defeat, to support the narrative of American folly, American egotism.

Some of us really emphasize the chance for success, a chance to get that country back on its feet after what we've done to it.

Sensationalizing ? It's a matter of spin by both partisan groups in this debate.

Millions of Iraqi voters probably look at it differently than all the remarks in this thread of outsiders.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

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Hi! JimMoyer

"What is missing from the debate over withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq? Any discussion of what the Iraqi people themselves want.

The opinions of those most affected by the war count most. So a nationwide referendum should be conducted in Iraq on the question of whether U.S. troops should stay or go, in which every Iraqi can vote directly on this question.

Some polls have asked Iraqis specifically about the presence of U.S. troops, and guess what: They want us to leave.

A February poll by the U.S. military, cited by the Brookings Institution, found that 71 percent of Iraqis "oppose the presence of Coalition Forces in Iraq." This poll was taken only in urban areas, but others have found much the same sentiment.

According to a January 2005 poll by Abu Dhabi TV/Zogby International, 82 percent of Sunni Arabs and 69 percent of Shiite Arabs favor the withdrawal of U.S. troops either immediately or after an elected government is in place.

A nationwide poll taken by Iraqi university researchers for the British government found that 82 percent of all Iraqis surveyed in August are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops and 67 percent feel less secure because of the occupation, the Sunday Telegraph of London reported last month.

But an opinion poll does not carry the weight of a referendum, in which all Iraqis could clearly and definitively vote on whether or not U.S. troops should remain in their country.

This can be done: Kurdish activists organized a referendum on independence during the January national elections in Iraq, which found that more than 90 percent of Kurdish voters want independence for the region.

On Oct. 15, Iraqis voted in another referendum, to accept a new constitution.

It appears that we as a nation are so self-absorbed that both the hawks and the doves among us have forgotten to ask what those most affected by the war, the Iraqi people, desire. Let us remedy this situation by supporting a referendum and then abiding by the results. Let the Iraqi people decide. "

Calm
 

jimmoyer

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The Iraqi opinion is not getting ignored.

In fact it's exactly that opinion that's having huge influence on debate around the world.

They want us to leave, but they disagree among themselves on that time frame.

The one man that's really having an effect on the time frame is al Sistani, who is navigativing with great skill the matter of that time frame.

Steering the course between the insurgents, his own extremists and moderates and the Americans is quite a skill.

He's quite a combination.
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

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It seems to me that the U.S. conducted the same type of campaign and election in Iraq and Afghanistan which the U.S. voters deplore themselves.

American voters complain constantly about how corrupted their elections are by money and have suggested that it demeans democracy.

But in Iraq, the same methods are said to be a step in the right direction.

Iraq's perilous, pricey campaign
Violence pushes Iraqi politicians to rely on technology instead of shoe leather for Thursday's vote

By Ilene R. Prusher
December 13, 2005
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1213/p01s02-woiq.html
 

Paranoid Dot Calm

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President Bush had one thing right when he said in March 2005:

...... "All [foreign] military forces and intelligence personnel must withdraw before the elections for those elections to be free and fair." ......

He was talking about Syrian troops in Lebanon; the same claim should be made about U.S. troops in Iraq.

Elections are often important indices and instruments of democracy, but elections held under conditions of military occupation are not legitimate.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Elections are often important indices and instruments of democracy, but elections held under conditions of military occupation are not legitimate.

very true........but that does not seem to bother the US too much.... :x
 

Ocean Breeze

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MSNBC Breaking News
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Large blast heard in Baghdad as polling stations open -
A large blast was heard in Baghdad on Thursday as polling stations opened in vote to elect new Iraqi parliament