Erasing the US Republic

Ocean Breeze

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http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2770


scary stuff.

Look at what the "global elite" want by 2010.....(the Canada , Mexico item in the article)

yikes.

the link might not get ya to the right page...so here it is en quote:
Erasing the American Republic



By Steven Yates
December 4, 2005
The United States of America, once--long ago--a Constitutional republic, is being erased. The erasure of America isn't reported on the 6 o'clock news, of course. It isn't much noticed, because it is happening too slowly--although the pace has increased over the past couple of decades. Be this as it may, there is no need to speak of "conspiracy theories." For one thing, it isn't a theory. It is as much a fact as gravity. It is being carried out in plain sight, not behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms. Anyone with Web access can follow the process. Those in the business of erasing America know, however, that they are operating in a culture whose educational system has been strip-mined, so to speak. America's masses by and large don't know what a Constitutional republic is, and use the Web the same way they use television--for entertainment.

Go, for example, to the website of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). There you will find a document entitled Building a North American Community. It first appeared on the site this past spring. Checking in at 47 pages excluding acknowledgements and other front matter, Building a North American Community provides a blueprint for the integration of the United States, Mexico and Canada under a single supranational authority. This plan would, for all practical purposes, dissolve the borders between each nation and end the lip- service that must still be paid to the Constitution within our own. It would bring NAFTA to fruition, building more of the "architecture of a new international system" about which Dr. Henry Kissinger spoke candidly back in 1993 when NAFTA was being accorded bipartisan support as a "free trade" agreement.

Regional unification would solve the illegal immigration problem by fiat, of course, by promoting the free movement of peoples across the former borders, an idea Mexican president Vicente Fox has promoted openly on numerous occasions. We will doubtless still speak of a United States, a Mexico, and a Canada. But their status would be very much like the status of formerly independent nations of the European Union, which is becoming a unified political entity whose citizens move as freely across borders as we do from state to state. The Europeans are just a few years ahead of us on the curve. The CFR report, which went online late last spring, has the endorsement of the Bush Administration. On March 23 of this past year, President Bush, Mexican President Vicente Fox, and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin joined in committing their governments to this "regional integration."

For the details here, go to the website of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP). President Bush has spoken of the common commitment of the three eventually-to-be- dissolved North American nations "to markets and democracy, freedom and trade, and mutual prosperity and security." Notice that he speaks of markets, not free markets. Note that he speaks of democracy, when what our Founding Fathers created was (in Ben Franklin's immortal words) "a republic, if you can keep it." Again, because of the strip- mining of our educational system mentioned above, he can get away with this. The average School-To-Work high school graduate has no idea that America was founded as a republic and not a democracy, by men severely critical of democracy. As for prosperity, it seems clear that since NAFTA we have grown not more but less prosperous as our national economy has literally bled manufacturing jobs and replaced them with low-paying "service sector" jobs. By 2003, almost ten years after NAFTA went into effect, America's middle class was massively in debt, the average debt by those owning one credit card being $9,250, up over $6,000 from 1990.

By September of this year, our savings rates had actually gone negative. Unemployment is much larger than the government's official statistics reveal, because those statistics do not count people who have ceased seeking work as unemployed. Moreover, no one keeps statistics on underemployment, the employment of men and women at jobs well beneath their educational level or mental capacity.

Examples of the latter: the science graduate who stocks shelves at the local Wal-Mart, the former high-tech employee compelled to take a job sorting mail. There is simply no evidence that eroding our national borders will reverse this slow destruction of the American middle class, and every reason to think the process will be accelerated as more jobs depart overseas for cheaper labor...

The contention that a unification of North America will increase the security of the three eventually-to-be-dissolved nations is even stranger. Our government will not protect its own borders despite worries of our being at risk of another terrorist attack because doing so would conflict with the regional integration desired by the super elite. For many of us this points directly at the deceptive nature of the "war on terror": if the feds were really interested in protecting the American public, the Bush Administration would have long pulled America out of all this misguided globalism, forgotten about that boondoggle in Iraq, recalled our troops from the hundred or so nations where they are stationed overseas, and used them to close our porous borders.

But never mind all that. The SPP will create a far larger perimeter to defend! Mexico has a southern border as porous as our own, if not more so. Small wonder that Lou Dobbs, one of the few voices in the mainstream media drawing attention to the problems with recent pseudo- free trade accords and immigration policies, can ask, Have our political elites gone mad?

The plan is to have the super-elites' North American Community in place by the year 2010. Here is what they want:

Military and law enforcement cooperation between all three eventually- to-be-dissolved nations;

Canadians and Mexicans brought into the American Department of Homeland Security;

"[T]emporary migrant worker programs expanded with full mobility of labor between the three countries in the next five years. Not even the mainstream media is ignoring this. The above-mentioned Dobbs posed his question on CNN. As I said at the outset, the super- elite is not really hiding anymore! Consider the following exchange that took place on the air between CNN's Christine Romans and Dobbs:

Romans: "The idea here is to make North America more like the European Union…"

Dobbs: "Americans must think that our political and academic elites have gone utterly mad at a time when three-and-a-half years, approaching four years after September 11, we still don't have border security. And this group of elites is talking about not defending our borders, finally, but rather creating new ones. It's astonishing."

Romans: "The theory here is that we are stronger together, three countries in one, rather than alone."

Dobbs: "Well, it's a— it's a mind-boggling concept…."

It is also official, as one can see just from consulting the relevant websites. It is not something we "conspiracy kooks" made up. We are moving—in overdrive—towards a state of affairs that will effectively end what little is left of the supremacy of the U.S. Constitution and the idea of limited government to a state of affairs in which Americans will answer to unelected supra-national bureaucrats— possibly without even realizing it!

We may add to all of this the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), which has not gone away but been temporarily shifted to the back burner. This latter may be due to the adverse publicity following the obvious strong-arm tactics the Bush Administration used to get CAFTA passed in the House last summer. The FTAA has fallen on apparent hard times, with the dissolution of the Fourth Summit of the Americas meeting in Argentina amidst a chaos of dissent and protest. Protests also attended the meeting that occurred in Canada four years ago. No one who studies these agreements wants them except the super elite, who see themselves as getting even richer from them. Its members have had setbacks before. They always eventually regroup. The creation of a North American Community places them in a good position to move forward nevertheless, following an agenda formulated by Zbigniew Brzezenski in his book Between Two Ages, which became the bible of David Rockefeller Sr.'s Trilateral Commission. Regional integration under NAFTA has already created tribunals whose members see themselves as having the authority to overrule U.S. court decisions.

The long-term goal, of course, is a world government that would subordinate all the affected peoples to an encirclement of regulatory controls by internationalist bureaucrats, most likely under the auspices of the United Nations whose sustainable development policies are carrying forth the effort on the domestic front. Sustainable development, as Michael Shaw recently showed in detail, is transforming communities all across America, city by city, county by county, and steadily depriving individuals of their private property rights and their mobility. Combine these two—international policies aimed at dissolving entire nations and domestic ones dissolving Constitutional liberties by stealth—and you have the incipient New World Order. Expect it no later than 2010—unless, of course, we experience the kind of economic meltdown described by Devvy Kidd in a recent two-part article. [Must see video; Liberty or Sustainable Development]

World government has, of course, been the goal of the super elite from the start. It was the goal of the Round Table Groups created with Cecil Rhodes; it has been the goal of the Fabian Society, which set the entire English-speaking world on the road to socialism. It was the goal of "Colonel" Edward Mandell House, who had written anonymously (in Philip Dru: Administrator) of "socialism as dreamt of by Karl Marx." House sat always at President Woodrow Wilson's side as he maneuvered this country into what became World War I, and then went on to guide the founding of the CFR.

The UN's backers have always seen it as destined to emerge as a world government. In 1962, the U.S. State Department commissioned MIT Professor Lincoln Bloomfield to produce an essay entitled "A World Effectively Controlled by the United Nations." This essay's Summary opens with these words: "A world effectively controlled by the United Nations is one in which `world government' would come about through the establishment of supranational institutions, characterized by mandatory universal membership and some ability to employ physical force. Effective control would thus entail a preponderance of political power in the hands of a supranational organization rather than in individual national units, and would assume the effective operation of a general disarmament agreement."

Between Two Worlds spoke of an "emerging international consciousness" and called for establishing a "community of the developed nations" focusing particularly on Western Europe, Japan and the United States. "This country's commitment to international affairs on a global scale has been decided by history," Brzezenski wrote. "It cannot be undone, and the only remaining relevant question is what its form and goals will be." A few short years later, one-time ambassador Richard Gartner (CFR) wrote of bringing about an "end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece" in his oft- cited "The Hard Road to World Order" in the CFR's flagship journal Foreign Affairs (1974).

Arguably, this movement went into overdrive during the period 1992- 93, which saw the rise of NAFTA, the emergence of sustainable development, the election of the globalist Clinton Administration, and much else besides. It has succeeded in globalizing the curricula in government schools at all levels, from elementary grades to research universities, so that internationalism is simply accepted and the Constitution (with rare exceptions) is simply bypassed, except perhaps as a historical relic. Whether President Bush will find some pretext to be done with it and institute martial law (perhaps following an outbreak of bird flu and calling for the quarantining of an entire city) remains to be seen. Domestic martial law would make it much easier for the super elite to get what it wants without putting up with the grass-roots scuffles it had to deal with over CAFTA. It will enable them to coerce silence from the public and imprison those who refuse to shut up. Admittedly most Americans are still too busy watching football to pay much attention to this; but it is doubtful that they are sufficiently conditioned for martial law. After all, Bush's approval ratings are at an all- time low, and the number of people who don't trust his consolidation of power at the federal level has been on the increase especially since the Katrina debacle.

Supposing we avoid martial law a few more years, will America's masses go along with the dissolution of this country like a bunch of sheep? They can do so by continuing to vote for Demopublicans. Or they can put a stop to it by recognizing that something has gone seriously wrong, waking up, and then getting behind a credible Independent candidate in 2008. It would be nice to see Independents elected to Congress in 2006, but it's doubtful since such candidates ought to be building up their war chests now, and I know of no cases. If America's masses continue mindlessly voting for CFR-controlled Demopublicans, the agenda I have been describing will continue apace.

Be all this as it may, I do not think this agenda will come to fruition. The New World Order world government will not fall into place the way the super elite wants. Brzezenski notwithstanding, it won't happen. Why not? It won't be protests in the streets that stop it. It won't be a third party. What will stop it, if we do not, are the basic laws of economics. Not even the super elite is powerful or wealthy enough to repeal basic economics, which tells us that real wealth must be produced and not borrowed against the future, and that not even governments can live indefinitely beyond their means. The New World Order is being built up on an unsustainable mountain of debt. One day this mountain must collapse like a house of cards. Much of the prosperity we claim for ourselves now is bogus—as imaginary as were the futures of the dot-com millionaires of the late 1990s who have since gone bankrupt. The reason for this last: the late 1990s were not years of real productivity but of massive credit expansion, which means easy money—all of it borrowed. Real jobs were disappearing; public education, pursuing the School-To-Work and Workforce Investment agendas, was circling the drain.

When entire economic systems pursue paths of reckless borrowing, eventually someone must pay. Today's debts have reached unpayable levels, and as Devvy Kidd argued in the article referenced above, the edifice is getting increasingly wobbly. Its collapse is not a matter of if, but when. Of course, super elite control over the "global economy" will have done enough damage to plunge much of the world into a depression that will make the 1930s look like a bad dream by comparison. So here are a few things one ought to do if one is capable: (1) homeschool your children; (2) do not live in a "sustainable" community; get out of the controlled urban environment; (3) buy precious metals, whose value will go up as the value of our fiat dollar goes down; (4) store a supply of food, water, vitamins, toiletries, batteries and battery-powered equipment capable of lasting at least half a year; (5) learn to grow vegetables; (6) learn to use firearms for protection against the looters and thugs that will doubtless roam the land following infrastructural collapse—just picture the entire continent looking like New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina minus the flood waters, and you get the idea.

I would think anyone with functioning brain cells would be motivated to see to it that this scenario never happens. Whether its possibility will actually sink into the consciousness of today's public remains questionable, however; even its portrayal in a made- for-TV movie on a major network where millions could tune in would be lost in the spate of disaster films we've seen this fall. Hopefully, some of those currently being homeschooled will keep the idea of Constitutionally limited government alive, as we continue the struggle to alert more and more Americans that the country they grew up in is slowly being erased.
 

Ocean Breeze

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the Global Elite: Who are they??

THE GLOBAL ELITE: WHO ARE THEY?



Part 1 of 3
Patrick Wood
November 21, 2005

There are two common misconceptions held by those who are critical of globalism.

The first error is that there is a very small group of people who secretly run the world with all-powerful and unrestrained dictatorial powers. The second error is that there is a large amorphous and secret organization that runs the world. In both cases, the use of the word "they" becomes the culprit for all our troubles, whoever "they" might be. If taxes go up, it is "they" that did it. If the stock market goes down, "they" are to blame. Of course, nobody really knows who "they" are so a few figureheads (people or organizations) are often made out to be the scapegoats.

Depending on a person's politics and philosophy, the scapegoats could be the U.S. President, the ACLU, the Ford Foundation, or Vladimir Putin. The point is, the real power structure is not correctely defined, and thus escapes exposure.

These misconceptions are understandable because when things are wrong, we all have a driving need to know who to blame! In some cases, elitist slight-of-hand initiates and then perpetuates false assumptions.

This writer has never been accused of charging that all large corporations are guilty of initiating and perpetuating globalization. There are many businesses, including banks, who are led by moral, ethical and good-hearted businessmen or businesswomen. Just because a company might touch globalism does not mean it and its management or employees are evil.

Every bit of thirty-five years of research indicates that there is a relatively small yet diverse group of global players who have been the planners and instigators behind globalization for many decades. The primary driving force that moves this "clique" is greed; the secondary force is the lust for power. In the case of the academics who are key to globalism, a third force is professional recognition and acceptance (a subtle form of egoism and power.)

It is also important to understand that core globalists have full understanding of their goals, plans and actions. They are not dimwitted, ignorant, misinformed or naive.

The global elite march in three essential columns: Corporate, Political and Academic. For the sake of clarity, these names will be used herein to refer to these three groups.

In general, the goals for globalism are created by Corporate. Academic then provides studies and white papers that justify Corporate's goals. Political sells Academic's arguments to the public and if necessary, changes laws to accommodate and facilitate Corporate in getting what it wants.

An important ancillary player in globalism is the media, which we will call Press in this report. Press is necessary to filter Corporate, Academic and Political's communications to the public. Press is not a fourth column, however, because it's purpose is merely reflective. However, we will see that Press is dominated by members of Corporate, Political and Academic who sit on the various boards of directors of major Press organizations.

This report will attempt to identify and label the core players in the globalization process. The intent is to show the makeup and pattern of the core, not to list every person in it. Nevertheless, many people will be named and their associations and connections revealed. This is done for two reasons.

First, it will equip the reader to be able to accurately identify other core players as they are brought into focus. Secondly, the reader will be able to pass over minor players who may sound like "big fish" but in fact are only pedestrians.

Organizational Memberships

The old saying, "Birds of a feather, flock together" is appropriate for the perpetrators of globalism. Sociologically speaking, they are like any other people group with like interests: they naturally tend to form societies that will help them achieve their common interests. A side-benefit of fellowship is mutual support and encouragement. Once formed, such groups tend to be self-perpetuating, at least as long as common interests remain.

In modern history, the pinnacle of global drivers has been the Trilateral Commission. Founded in 1973 by David Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski, this group is credited with being the founder of the New International Economic Order that has given rise to the globalization we see today.

The Council on Foreign Relations

Prior to the founding of the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) was the most significant body of global-minded elitists in the United States. As far back as 1959, the CFR was explicit about a need for world government:

"The U.S. must strive to build a new international order... including states labeling themselves as 'socialist'... to maintain and gradually increase the authority of the United Nations."

The site for the United Nations headquarters in New York was originally donated by the Rockefeller family, and the CFR world architects worked for many years to use the U.N. as a means to develop an image of world order. Indeed, the CFR membership roster has been, and still is a Who's Who of the elitist eastern establishment.

The first problem with the CFR is that it became too large and too diverse to act as a "cutting edge" in global policy creation. The second problem is that it's membership was limited to north America: What group could effect global changes without a global membership?

The CFR continues to be significant in the sense that politicians often look to its membership when searching for people to fill various appointments in government. It also continues to be a policy mill through its official organ, Foreign Policy.

While there are several core global elitists in the ranks of the CFR, they represent a very small percentage of the total membership. Conversely, there are many CFR members who are only lightly involved with globalism. For this reason, we do not count the CFR as being central to globalization today.

The Trilateral Commission

David Rockefeller recognized the shortcomings of the CFR when he founded the Trilateral Commission in 1973 with Zbigniew Brzezinski. Rockefeller represented Corporate and Brzezinski represented Academic.

Together, they chose approximately 300 members from north America, Europe and Japan, whom they viewed as being their "birds of a feather." These members were at the pinnacle of their profession, whether Corporate, Academic, Political or Press. It is a testimony to the influence of Rockefeller and Brzezinski that they could get this many people to say "Yes" when they were tapped for membership.

Out of the 54 original U.S. members of the Trilateral Commission, Jimmy Carter was fronted to win the presidential election in 1976. Once inaugurated, Carter brought no less than 18 fellow members of the Commission into top-level cabinet and government agencies...

Perhaps no one has described the Trilateral operation as succinctly as veteran reporter Jeremiah Novak in the Christian Science Monitor (February 7, 1977):

"Today a new crop of economists, working in an organization known as the Trilateral Commission, is on the verge of creating a new international economic system, one designed by men as brilliant as Keynes and White. Their names are not well known, but these modern thinkers are as important to our age as Keynes and White were to theirs.

"Moreover, these economists, like their World War II counterparts, are working closely with high government officials, in this case President Jimmy Carter and Vice President Walter Mondale. And what is now being discussed at the highest levels of government, in both the United States and abroad, is the creation of a new world economic system - a system that will affect jobs in America and elsewhere, the prices consumers pay, and the freedom of individuals, corporations, and nations to enter into a truly planetary economic system. Indeed, many observers see the advent of the Carter administration and what is now being called the "Trilateral" cabinet as the harbinger of this new era."[1]

The pernicious influence of the Commission and its dominance of the U.S. Executive branch remains unchallenged to this day.

Ronald Reagan was not a member of the Trilateral Commission, but his Vice President, George H. W. Bush, was a member. The Commission's influence was safely perpetuated into the Reagan years.

The 1988 election of George H.W. Bush to the presidency further consolidated Trilateral influence in the U.S.

In 1992, Trilateral member William Jefferson Clinton followed in the presidency and contributed greatly to the cause of globalization.

In 2000, George W. Bush assumed the presidency. While it can be demonstrated that Bush is closely aligned with and totally dedicated to Trilateral goals, he is not a member of the Commission. However, Vice President Dick Cheney is a member of the Commission.

Obviously, Corporate's partnerships with Political, Academic and Press has been very successful.
 

Ocean Breeze

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the American "crusade"

Friday, December 9, 2005

Iraq war debate enters new phase

ANTHONY B. ROBINSON

You might not expect a West Point graduate, Vietnam vet and career soldier to come out with a book titled "The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Addicted to War." But that's what Andrew Bacevich, who now directs the program in International Relations at Boston University, has done.

A self-described conservative, Bacevich argues that Americans have fallen prey to a "military metaphysic." By that he means all international problems are seen as military problems and the likelihood for finding a solution except through military means is discounted. The result is war as a permanent condition with the only acceptable plan for peace a loaded pistol. One has only to consider the relative weight given to the Pentagon and the State Department to get the point.

During the military buildup of the '80s, the claim of proponents was "peace through strength." Having a big enough military meant you wouldn't have to use it. But having such a large and sophisticated military has proved a tough temptation for politicians and people alike to resist. It's an old story: When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

As a pastor what most interested me is Bacevich's careful tracing of the role of leading religious conservatives in promoting a "crusade theory of warfare," to replace the more long-standing and cautious doctrine of just war. A crusade theory of warfare provides the mindset and justification for offensive military action, for so-called preventive wars like the current war in Iraq. The just war ethical tradition mandates the use of force for defensive, not offensive, purposes.

How did this change, a crucial element of American's seduction by war, happen? Beginning in the '70s a growing number of politically active religious conservatives told Americans, and their conservative Christian followers, that communism was everywhere on the march and America's subjugation was imminent. There was, however, not only this frightening side to their message but an urging to action. Christian America's true destiny is to wield military power in the death struggle with godless communion.

Beneath this rhetoric lies a theology declared heretical in the early centuries of Christianity: Manichaeism from a third century teacher, Mani. Manichaens of every age divide the world simply and starkly between the forces of good and the forces of evil, and urge the former to stamp out the latter. Appealing in its simplicity, Manichaeism is disastrous in reality. Early Christians regarded Manichaeism as heretical precisely because it blinded people to their own capacity for evil and encouraged gross self-deception.

After the Soviet Union imploded (in part due to its own military excesses), and 9/11 stunned Americans, these same politically active religious conservatives were quick to substitute Islam for communism. Falwell and Robertson recycled old lines with a new infidel. Franklin Graham, son of Billy, denounced Islam as "a very evil and wicked religion." Southern Baptist President Jack Graham declared, "Satan is the ultimate terrorist" and "this is a war between Christians and the forces of evil, by whatever name they choose to use." A crusade theory of warfare marched on, giving sanction to a new stratagem, "preventive war."

Eclipsed in the storm of fear and rhetoric was the older tradition of mainstream Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. The ethical tradition of just war lays down rigorous tests if a war, always understood as a tragic option and always to be a last resort, can be considered just and justifiable. Such conditions include, but are not limited to, "just cause" (usually self-defense); public declaration of war by a lawful authority; no ulterior motives (self-aggrandizement or vengeance); reasonable probability of success, and avoidance of harm to non-combatants.

As the debate on the Iraq war enters a new phase, those who foisted a crusade theory of warfare on Americans, and those who bought it, have much to answer for. Such a mentality encourages an overreliance on the nation's military, a rush to war, the failure of careful analysis and the erosion of proscriptions against torture and abuse. In moving from a just war ethic to a crusade theory of warfare Americans have lost their way, and some Christian leaders have betrayed their faith. Christian faith ought always to be a check on war's excesses and a challenge to an overreliance on the military, not a cheerleader in war's camp. As a Christian and a soldier, Andrew Bacevich is arguing exactly that.
 

jjw1965

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Jul 8, 2005
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I've been telling people this for a few years now, First a European Union, Then a Pan American Union(North America-Canada-Mexico), Asian Union and so on.

C.F.R. crap :evil:
 

Alberta'sfinest

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RE: Erasing the US Republ

That's what they think. I love my country, and there is no extreme too great that I won't use to make sure it stays sovereign. We have so much oil there isn't even a reason for us to even join the US and Mexico. I think what they're trying to do is limit a resource war in the near future by uniting the Nations that create the possibility for tension. Or this thing could be just a huge rouse, designed to do nothing more than to create a giant war. Uniting the world in three big factions is how the apocalypse is supposed to happen. The Great king from the north with 10 horns and crowns (EU) will fight the anit-christ from the middle east and the allies it can get. The great king of the north will win, then the New babylon (north america) will attack the King of the north over a dispute, likely over that regions oil, and destroy the King's army. Then the second coming of Chist happens and he tells everyone how it is, and creates one world order based on peace and love, and the helping of your fellow man. Whether they're planning it from the Bible, or the prophecy in the Bible just happens to coincide, it's still significant. We are also reaching a very weird point in time itself, and many cultures predict the end of the age on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun rises from the mouth of the milky way Galaxy to mark a complete orbit in the milky way by our solar system. If the prophecies maintain consistency, the tribulation should start on march 21, 2009. Most of what is in the Bible was meant to guide people, but the prophecies in the bible seem to be scarily consistent with what is happening in the world these days. I'm not a religious person, and I don't practice any religion, but I still eminate the qualities of Christ because I believe that he was still a very enlightened person, and the prophecies were calculated the same way I calculate when things will go down. I think people will become wise to these pushers of the NWO and the three factions that are quickly forming will destroy eachother in the persuit of World domination. I guess the irony of being evil, is that it doesn't self allign itself with other movements of evil, and it always implodes. Considering how much tension there will be over arable land, resources, and even fresh water, there will be a large scale war in a little over 3 years.
 

jimmoyer

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It's kind of fun to know about "Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun rises from the mouth of the milky way Galaxy to mark a complete orbit in the milky way by our solar system. ", that AlbertsFinests mentions.

That's a fun fact.

We see this orbit, like the chapter on the Doubloon in Moby Dick.

Each crew member comes to the mast where Ahab nailed a doubloon for the first man who spots the Great White Whale and they all see what that doubloon means to them.

So is this orbit.

I believe the orbits and the planets and the milkyway are all related to each other in some way, but I don't know how it is related.

One day the Sun will grow old and supernova its circumference out to this Earth's orbit.

But I got a suspicion.

None of this may be about us.

The universe we observe is very non-human.

Was it all made for us to observe?

Is every bowel movement in the universe all about us?

A lot of religions imply this.

As far as the consolidation of countries, I see two counterforces: one wants to unite and one wants a divorce.

Scotland get's its own semi-autonomous Parliament. Nunavat splits from the NorthWest Territories.
Quebec and Alberta ponder its independence.
Iraq ponders a federation, perhaps a Kurdistan in the north.

The EU in fits and starts wonders where unity is good and separateness good.
 

jjw1965

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jimmoyer

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None of us expect the Muslims to change their law in Cairo that does not allow the building of any new Christian Churches, but does allow the expanding the building of an existing church.

None of us think it's wise for Christians to go around openly prosletyzing in a Muslim culture that frowns on blunt persuasion. Technically a muslim is not allowed to try to convert other non-Muslims. A cleric will not visit you to turn you to his side, but if you want to convert, you are welcomed to visit the cleric.

I mention these things because it's okay in a dominant Christian culture to be able to display openly what it believes in the public arena, not just in its churches.

Ripping off the 10 Commandments from every county courthouse is ridiculous, especially since it is quite generic and common to all religions, and especially if that plaque has been on that courthouse for 80 some years gaining some place in the history of that building.

Germany requires all its gymnasium students to take religious history until they graduate.

This absolutism in separation of church and state can get ad absurdum, because the most christian document of all used by government and the people is your calendar, your daily planner, your appointments.

Today is 2004 years and 12 months and 12 days since Christ was alleged to have been born.

You want separation of Church and State to an extremely pure level ?

Then create a new calendar.

Absurd? So are many of the issues on church and state.

Congress shall make no law establishing (a) religion (meaning one particular sect, one particular religion); nor prohibit the free excercise thereof.

If congress ever established a law favoring one religion, it surely did so by adopting the use of the Christian calendar.

Silly ?

So are a lot of other restrictions that offend people so mightily despite going home turning on the TV and seeing a lot more offensive things.

When Christians go to a non-Christian country, they should respect the public displays of that host country.

Vice versa.

I am not particularly religious myself, but I don't think there's any wisdom in demeaning others who believe, even as we try to prove the myths and legends as fictional.

In no way is the republic erased by these considerations.
 

Summer

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Re: RE: Erasing the US Republic

jimmoyer said:
I mention these things because it's okay in a dominant Christian culture to be able to display openly what it believes in the public arena, not just in its churches.
But if you're talking about the U.S., it's a fact that we aren't a Christian nation and it isn't government's job to display religious material or promote a particular religion or even religion at all.

Ripping off the 10 Commandments from every county courthouse is ridiculous,
Agreed in cases where the 10 are there as part of the historic building's original appearance. There's no need to deface historic buildings.

especially since it is quite generic and common to all religions,
I'll disagree with you on this point, as the 10 C's are only part of the Abrahamic-descended faiths. They are not part of the Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Pagan or American Native religions, or the many others that exist in the U.S. They are not a part of my religion.

and especially if that plaque has been on that courthouse for 80 some years gaining some place in the history of that building.
Again, yes, when there is a historic value, then it isn't a problem.

This absolutism in separation of church and state can get ad absurdum, because the most christian document of all used by government and the people is your calendar, your daily planner, your appointments.
Calendars aren't inherently Christian. Just because you can note a Christian holiday on one doesn't make the calendar itself Christian. The calendar on my wall also notes Jewish holidays and Muslim holidays, as well as a selection of festivals from other faiths. For that matter, it notes public holidays from a variety of English-speaking countries, but that doesn't make it an Australian or British or Canadian calendar. It's just a calendar.

Today is 2004 years and 12 months and 12 days since Christ was alleged to have been born.
Except that most people have known for years that Jesus was not actually born on that date. So the calendar argument is basically a non-starter.

You want separation of Church and State to an extremely pure level ? Then create a new calendar.
Unnecessary. Of course, I personally already use CE and BCE rather than AD and BC.

Congress shall make no law establishing (a) religion (meaning one particular sect, one particular religion); nor prohibit the free excercise thereof.
Read it again, as that isn't what it says. What it says is: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Respecting means "with respect to", which is a fancy way of saying :about", and an establishment of religion means any religious establishment such as a church, temple, mosque, congregation, or religious hierarchy, orthodoxy, canon or other body of religious belief, dogma, worship or practice.

In other words, the clause misquoted ad nauseam by so many simply means that our government is not permitted to make any law mandating, affecting, promoting, forbidding or interfering with religion, period. With a reasonable understanding of the legal phrasing in use at the time the document was written, it's intended meaning becomes quite clear.

If congress ever established a law favoring one religion, it surely did so by adopting the use of the Christian calendar.
That old chestnut of an erroneous argument has more dust on it than the top of my bookcase. And it's been a strawman ever since it was first put forth. The government of the U.S. simply used the common calendar in use at the time, and continues to do so. That calendar is no more Christian than my coffee cup.

Absolutely.

I am not particularly religious myself, but I don't think there's any wisdom in demeaning others who believe, even as we try to prove the myths and legends as fictional.
Nobody's demeaning the faith of others. But if the Christian Reconstructionists ever got seriously into power in the U.S., we would cease to be a secular republic enjoying religious freedom, and would instead resemble far more a Christianized version of the Taliban's Afghanistan. Did you even read the Mother Jones article? One of the main proponents of CR talks of how there would be "thousands of executions" each year, for things like being of another faith. As a non-Christian who is also not a follower of any Abrahamic tradition, I think I've got good reason to be upset by that prospect. And as a Pagan, I'd likely be among the first sent to the wall.
 

Summer

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Nov 13, 2005
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RE: Erasing the US Republ

Yeah, well I'm not exactly secretive about it. I'm actually a Unitarian Universalist who personally chooses a Pagan format for interacting individually with the Divine.

(Try saying that three times fast... I'll stand by with the tongue sling.) :lol:
 

jimmoyer

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Well, Summer, that was quite a point by point response.

I still maintain that the calendar is well known for it's Christian origin, and just because we don't know the exact date of Christ's birth, we all certainly know that the Catholic Church decreed this calendar to be based on a certain time (albeit as a propagandist tool for those celebrating the Return of Light, the Winter Solstice.)

And so the irony is the use of this calendar.

So enormous that this point is thought silly, but so are many of the other battles fought on this matter of church and state, such as the rip off of 10 commandment plaques on historic public buildings -- and they are quite generic even to the religions you mentioned.

But you've accurately portrayed the dominant reaction to these church state separation matters.

As far as your mostly correct interpretation of the clause in the constitution, you missed a huge legal point involving the word CONGRESS.

The law does not apply to state or local government. Only case law speaks to that matter as an interpretation to include more than Congress.

And the point about fearing the Christians is an over-reaction to the minorty of loud evangelists who will ultimately never get anywhere with most Christians who have quite secular attitudes in this nation. And as we visit other countries we respect the dominant culture of the host, and that's pretty much the case for minorities throughout the world.

But, your points are very strong, and pretty much carry the day for most people.
 

Summer

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Nov 13, 2005
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RE: Erasing the US Republ

Hi there, Jim!

Well, remember that the calendar we use was developed during a time when the Catholic Church held sway over pretty much everything of importance in European life, and carrying it over beyond that time was basically an expedient to prevent the necessity of coming up with another dating system and implementing it in the U.S., with the attendant nuisance of having to correlate it with the calendar in use in the rest of the world that the U.S. had to deal with. I've read that there was in fact a proposal floated to implement a new calendar commencing with the date of the Declaration of Independence, but it was deemed too much of a hassle.

Just as well, too, as it would be a major headache today, I think, having to convert calendar dates in dealing with the rest of the Western World. In fact, for the sake of commerce, even non-Western businessfolk use the calendar we use in international dealings, despite usually having no actual connection with Christianity.

As for your having pointed out "Congress" as distinct from State and Local governments in issues relating to the First Amendment, you are correct to a point, but later legislation and SCOTUS decisions prohibit those bodies from the same actions prohibited to Congresss by said Amendment, as you indeed alluded to. Good point, though.

As to the applicability of the Ten Commandments, however, you're still overgeneralizing, as the non-Abrahamic religions do not have anything truly analogous to the Ten. Many of the same principles find expression within other religious, yes, but not all of them and not necessarily in the same way. The first commandment is especially problematic in that regard, with its admonishment by the Hebrew G-d to have no other gods before him. It's kind of a slap in the face to those of us who do in fact recognize other deities instead. There's no possible way to regard that one as generic.
 

jimmoyer

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Hey Summer !

Good post.

I just wanted to emphasize how absurd some of the arguments about separation of church and state can get, especially about the anger towards it when so much else is so much worse.

The passion on secular purity in the public arena is almost a religion itself.
 

Summer

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Nov 13, 2005
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Re: RE: Erasing the US Republic

jimmoyer said:
Hey Summer !

Good post.

I just wanted to emphasize how absurd some of the arguments about separation of church and state can get, especially about the anger towards it when so much else is so much worse.

The passion on secular purity in the public arena is almost a religion itself.

:)

Seriously, I think I do understand where you're coming from... and yeah, it does get extreme on the other side of the argument (I couldn't care less that kids sing carols in school programs, for example, and would probably be more upset if they were not allowed to because those are a part of our musical culture quite apart from any religious significance). I think that the reason for such a major reaction from some people is because there is a very vociferous group of people (not least among them the Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists, and publicly-known evangelists by the score) who have made it clear that they would love nothing better than to see Christianity dominate the public sphere and for there to be no mention of any other religion whatsoever. That used to be the case, with Christianity being the accepted "norm" and people of other faiths being marginalized... and one of the big problems with that is that it just reinforces the mistaken notion that many have (from sloppy history teachers, or from preachers who either intentionally mislead their flocks or else who have a skewed view of history, or even from various media folks) that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation and that Christians therefore are the only proper citizens and ought to have rights and privileges that the rest of us don't. So what is being seen from the other side of the issue is to some extent a backlash, one that may eventually subside as things begin to approach a state of equilibrium.

Here's an example from my personal POV: yes, I'm a non-Christian - as in being someone who doesn't believe in Jesus as a savior or the need for a savior, or worship the God of the Bible, or believe that everything in the Bible is necessarily true (it's a mix of history, fiction, allegory, spiritual teachings, philosophy and cultural wisdom) - and I approach the Divine by another avenue. On the other hand, I was reared in a Lutheran household, grew up in a rich faith tradition, and even in my public school, my involvement with the choral program had me singing all manner of sacred Christian music (not to mention learning a fair bit of Latin along the way!) and I find that music beautiful to this day and will still gladly perform it (I was singing "O Holy Night" in public just last week, for cryin' out loud, and there are witnesses, LOL). I would NEVER want to see that musical heritage disappear, and I think that under the actual laws, there is no reason for it to have to do so... schools that do away with such things are in reality misinterpreting the law as it stands, IMO. The thing that would make things even and equal and proper would be to include music from other religious traditions of the season and also secular music, and make it clear that ALL the works are being presented for their artistic and cultural merits. Ditto for anything adults or kids do in the public square outside of school: just be inclusive, don't assign a higher value to that which reflects Christianity than to that which reflects other religions, or to that which promotes religion in general over that which speaks to secular things.

The Ten Commandments of the Abrahamic faiths can, IMO, co-exist peacefully on a public building in the company of other representations of law as it has existed through the ages (Hammurabi, etc.) or even on its own provided it is not conflated with U.S. Federal, State or local legal codes. I've no problem with historic buildings with plaques that have been there from the beginning: I do have a problem with a huge new scupture in the lobby and a judge who claims he will rule on cases according to what is on that sculpture, or on a 10 Commandments poster in the courtroom. I mean, it's not even really that fine a line when you think about it.

Okay, I'll stop rambling now. :oops:
 

ElPolaco

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Just a comment from a "religious nut". If all Christians put as much work into putting Christ into the hearts of their fellow man by setting an example as they did into 10 commandments in courthouses, prayer in public school, the way we say the pledge, the proper way of wishing "Merry Christmas", fighting anything PC etc., we would truly have a Christian Nation in a short time.