France riots - Economic, Religious , or just hate cars ?

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
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First, the good news:
About 4,700 cars have been burned in France since the rioting began
Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched
.

You see, I have had this exact idea for a few years now... that new car dealerships have planetkiller vehicles for sale, and unless we burn them now, they will spew GGs for the next 20 years....
Also, it would be encouragement to build cars that are more efficient.

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The Riots in France

Those allegedly responsible -- groups of young Muslim men of largely North African and black African origin -- have said that they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing, broken promises by the French government to its immigrant communities: The French integration model insists that all citizens are equal before the state, but some say cultural minorities are being left without a voice.

Immigrant ghettos like the ones in France are the root of the problem. It looks like they are just a cheap labour force, not unlike American's colored people.
These ghettos, where many Africans and their French-born children live on society's margins, struggling with high unemployment, racial discrimination and despair -- fertile terrain for crime of all sorts as well as for Muslim extremists offering frustrated youths a way out.

No doubt, Muslum extremists go there to recruit, it is fertile ground where poverty exists- thats how the link to Muslum extremism got connected to these riots, I doubt very much that these youth are rioting because they want France to embrace Islamic Traditions, not at all.

The ugly, often poorly maintained blocks of public housing that have become a nightly battlefield are testament to 40 years of government policy that has concentrated immigrants and their families in well-defined districts away from city centers, as housing there became more expensive.
"Working class suburbs have become ethnic ghettos," says Marc Cheb Sun, who edits "Respect," a magazine aimed mostly at young black and North African readers. "That is the origin of the problem."

The French police have not helped - when they detain darker skinned people, brutalise them, a backlash will ensue.
Much of the youths' anger has focused on law-and-order Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, whose reference to the troublemakers as "scum" appeared to inflame passions. No doubt!!
"They [police] check our papers everywhere, all the time, for no reason," complains one youth in Clichy who did not want to be identified. "And the checks are getting rougher and rougher."


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And then this experiment to show the disadvantages of ghetto'ed people in France:
Jean-Francois Amadieu, a university professor who founded the "Discrimination Observatory" discovered in experiments over the past year.
He sent out fictitious applications for sales jobs, allegedly coming from six different sorts of applicant, ranging from a white male to a woman of North African origins, all with the same resume.
Applicants writing from addresses known to be in "difficult" areas received half as many invitations to an interview as those from less notorious districts. The "North African" male candidate received five times fewer invitations than his white counterpart, says Professor Amadieu.
At the same time, complains Michele Lereste, who runs the "Green Light" social-work agency in Villetaneuse, just North of Paris, where the projects are almost entirely inhabited by immigrant-descended families, government funding cuts have closed a number of job-training institutes, "and we are finding it harder and harder to get employers to take apprentices from our district."
"The kids learn all the French republican values such as equality in school, and then they find in practice that it's an illusionSociety created these ghettos and now it has to deal with them."Police checks./


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K- see? when you hammer on a person long enough, they tend to stand up and swat back.

I see these riots as economics related, not religion.
Muslims are under attack as the fears [unfounded] of them taking over the world are circulated in the mass media. They hope to get public opinion against Islamists , so that aggressive police actions against them will be tolerated.

A lack of opportunity, a lack of equality, is the real force behind their rage. Every developed nation has this class of labourers, they do the dirty work cheaply. Ahhh, good old capitalism!
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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French PM imposes curfews to stop rioting
CTV.ca News Staff

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has declared that curfews will be imposed wherever they are needed and that 9,500 police officers have been deployed to stop the growing violence spreading across the country.

The announcement came as rioters in the southern city of Toulouse attacked an empty bus and pelted police with firebombs and rocks Monday evening.

"Wherever it is necessary, prefects will be able to put in place a curfew under the authority of the interior minister, if they think it will be useful to permit a return to calm and ensure the protection of residents. That is our number one responsibility," Villepin said on France's TF1 television.

Meanwhile the violence claimed its first fatality with the death of Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec.

The 61-year-old died after being beaten by a hooded man while trying to extinguish a garbage can fire, French police said Monday.

On Sunday, at least 1,400 vehicles were torched and 395 people were arrested during France's worst night of unrest since the rioting erupted 11 days ago.

The rioting, which spread to 300 towns, left 36 policemen injured, including two who were shot in Paris.

More than 4,300 vehicles have been burned since the riots began.

As urban unrest was reported in neighboring Belgium and Germany, the French government faced growing criticism for its inability to stop the violence, despite massive police deployment and continued calls for calm.

Police in the Belgian capital of Brussels reported apparent copycat attacks outside the city's main train station, with five cars torched.

Five cars were torched in Berlin on Sunday and six in the western German city of Bremen.

Meanwhile, leaders of other European nations are keeping a close eye on the developments.

"Everybody's concerned at what is happening," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Monday.

"I send every support to the French government and to the French people in dealing with the situation. You should never be complacent about these things, although I think our situation is in some ways different."

On Sunday, Chirac made his first public address since the riots began, saying that restoring order was "an absolute priority."

"France is determined "to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear, and they will be arrested, judged and punished," Chirac said, after meeting with top ministers.

While the riots began in the suburbs outside Paris, Sunday was the first time the destruction reached into the heart of the city.

Chirac is expected to announce special security measures on Monday or Tuesday.

He has come under pressure by opposition politicians who accuse him of failing to intervene publicly.

Though police have already made hundreds of arrests, police union Action Police CFTC is urging the government to impose a curfew on certain areas and to call in the army to control the youths, Reuters reported.

"Nothing seems to be able to stop the civil war that spreads a bit more every day across the whole country," the union said in a statement.

"The events we're living through now are without precedent since the end of the Second World War."

Muslim leaders of African and Arab communities have also issued a fatwa, or religious decree, against the riots.


The fatwa by the Union for Islamic Organizations of France forbids all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others."

Rioting first began in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois on October 27, following the deaths of Bouna Traore, 15, and Zyed Benna, 17, in a power substation.

The two youths, of Mauritanian and Tunisian origin, died of electrocution.

Locals have said the boys hid in the substation to escape from pursuing police officers.

A preliminary report has since cleared officers of any wrongdoing in the teen's deaths.

The rioting has renewed the debate on how to ease the long-simmering anger in France's suburbs, home to many Africans, Arabs and their French-born children who feel trapped by soaring unemployment, poor housing conditions and discrimination.

Meanwhile, Australia, Austria, Britain, Germany and Hungary have joined the United States and Russia in advising their citizens to exercise care when visiting France.


situation tense.[/url]
 

Ten Packs

Council Member
Nov 21, 2004
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Well, it's certainly pretentious.... It would have sounded really cool, if you had added "Grasshopper" on the end. ;)

There's not a Philsophical Guru in the entire forum, that I have noticed - and that includes ME.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
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jjw1965

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Jul 8, 2005
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Leader Of Racist Aztlan Movement Calls For French-Style Riots In US

While Many Americans are watching the chaos unfold following 12 nights of mayhem by largely Muslim immigrants in the streets of France, a leader of the separatist Aztlan movement in the U.S. says it's only a matter of time before worse unrest hits the streets of America. More...
 

Ocean Breeze

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Paris Is But A Symptom
Rami G. Khouri
November 08, 2005


Rami G. Khouri is editor-at-large of the Beirut-based Daily Star newspaper, published throughout the Middle East with the International Herald Tribune.

The pattern of young people from the Middle East and North Africa getting into trouble—as we used to say in the 1960s—has evolved in recent decades from isolated and episodic incidents into a veritable global phenomenon. The "trouble" these days, however, is not local gangsterism or self-inflicted problems with drugs or crime. The structural problems of young Arabs, North Africans and Asians—economic, social and political—have emigrated with them to other parts of the world. Many in our region and abroad have warned for three decades now of the dangers of ignoring the obvious stresses and disequilibria that plague so many young people in the Arab-Asian region. The cost of continued inaction and irresponsibility is not only higher now, it is also spreading around the world.

The news Tuesday was typical: young men of North African origin burn cars and clash with police throughout France for nearly two weeks straight. Smaller incidents of random violence plague German cities. Young Middle Eastern immigrants are arrested in Australia before setting off a potentially catastrophic series of terror bombings. Throughout the Middle East and North Africa, young men continue to feed the recruiting lines of suicide bombers, resistance fighters, social-economic and political militants, freelance terrorists and legitimate, peaceful Islamist activists, all sharing a common attribute across the continents. They are dissatisfied with their current status and prospects in society and they will no longer stew in silence. They have moved beyond passive acceptance of their fate to the point of engaging in dynamic, violent actions that they see as assertive, redemptive or simply an appropriate expression of their anger, humiliation, marginalization and, above all, fear.

The causes of the violent, often nihilistic, acts of young Middle Eastern men around the world are neither unknown nor beyond the realm of corrective policies. There are no puzzles here. The core problem is mass degradation and alienation that manifest themselves in two milieus simultaneously: in urban belts of educated, usually unemployed, young men throughout Arab-Asian towns and cities; and in the parallel urban zones of mass disenfranchisement and marginalization that have become more common and visible in Western Europe, North America and Australia.

This is a cruelly recurring problem of inadequate integration and citizenship rights that plagues a young man in his own country, and again when he and his family immigrate to Western lands. Arab experts and colleagues abroad have repeatedly documented the multifaceted malaise of Arab youth: poor education, abuse of power, limited and unequal economic opportunities, lack of personal freedoms, cultural alienation, substandard housing, poverty, quality of life disparities, hyper-urbanization, the stresses of internal or international migration, low global competitiveness, weakening family and community networks, changing gender roles, the impact of global media, and increasing environmental pressures, to mention only the most obvious.

These problems that push young Arabs to violence are firmly anchored in the overarching weaknesses and distortions of their home societies, where power is wielded without sufficient accountability, education is provided without enough opportunity, and people often are not allowed by law even to express their basic social, religious, ethnic and political identities. The consequent tensions that build up are briefly alleviated or postponed through consumerism and materialism, enjoying Baywatch and Batman on television, or repeatedly denouncing America, Israel, British colonialism, and all the Arab leaders in passionate oratory.

This diversionary interlude lasts for, oh, about five-to-seven years in warm climates, and seven-to-ten years in cooler ones. Then, one day, the human spirit snaps. Baywatch, Batman, subsidized falafel sandwiches, and cell phones with cameras and music players no longer compensate for the existential fears that haunt many of our youth.

Our collective problem in the north and south alike is that we are talking about nearly a hundred million men and women who fall into this category of disenchanted adolescents and under-30 youth whose fundamental humanity has been pushed beyond the limits of its genetic and emotional programming. The sheer numbers are both telling and numbing: The population of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) has increased from some 60 million in the 1930s, to 112 million in the 1950s, to over 415 million today—an astounding seven-fold increase in just three generations. The population will not stabilize until it doubles again to over 800 million by around 2050.

International Labor Organization (ILO) data shows that high population growth rates in the past decade have been coupled with a high labor force growth rate of 3.3 percent a year. Labor markets have done a poor job in trying to absorb the 3.6 million people every year who enter the job market; they will do no better from now until 2015, during which the labor force is expected to grow by 2.6 percent annually, meaning that some four million new workers will seek jobs every year. Only one in every third young person is working, in a region that suffers the highest youth unemployment rates in the world—around 30 percent.

One reason for this, the ILO notes, is that the education system produces unemployable youth. Graduate unemployment reaches up to 50 percent and more in Jordan and Yemen, and 27 percent in Morocco. This challenge of a large number of educated, unemployed young men and women will persist for decades ahead, because of the peculiarly young age of the Arab population. Those aged 20-24 years have increased from 10 million in 1950 to 36 million today, and will reach at least 56 million by 2050, because the under-15 population in the MENA region comprises 36 percent of the total population (compared to just 16 percent in Europe).

The really shocking thing is not staggering data, or the shocking political and human implications—but that none of this is new or surprising. These trends have been documented and pointed out for at least a generation. I remember when such statistics and projections were first broached in the region in the late-1970s, eliciting raised eyebrows, but not much else.

Burning cars in Paris and interrupted terror bombings in Sydney may achieve that which a generation of indigenous, patient scholarship, analysis and activism in the Middle East and North Africa have not elicited: serious political and economic reforms that assert the basic rights of Arab citizens to live in societies defined by decency and equality, and the indelible humanity of Arab youth who have been deformed beyond recognition by the inequities of their own tortured political cultures.
 

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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This all stems from French employers discrimnating against Muslims - that's just of of the many reasons why France's unemployment rate are so high. France makes it hard for its Muslims, which constitute 10% of its population, to find jobs.

Many French Muslims in Paris are stopped by the police every week and are frisked. The police once tear-gassed a Mosque just because a car was illegally parked outside it.
 

Durgan

Durgan
Oct 19, 2005
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Well, whatever the reason for the outburst. It is one way to draw attention to your cause.

Now what will be the outcome, after the French restore order?

Normal complaints seem to not work in a Democracy. In a totalitarian state it is simple. You don't complain or da head is bashed in.

Durgan.
 

jimmoyer

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Apr 3, 2005
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Some thoughts.

1. What can happen in France certainly can happen in any country that permits too large an immigration, causing less of a desire to assimilate into the dominant culture of the host country.

2. It is always a crazy irony that the rioting often destroys their own communities, often done by the young who destroy any slim gain their parents got.
The mindless fun of it, the glee of it, the orgasmic running about with fire in their hands is a horror to those who are older and can't bounce back from the damage done.

3. We wring our hands that ghettos exist in all of our countries. But we are an ant colony teeming over the globe, and only some of us will be Kings, some artists, some engineers, and many more just the low grunt trench diggers, and these percentages of who we are as human beings will never go away. There will always be a percentage of us who don't do as well as the next person and no social engineering will ever conquer the statistics of human demographics. So do we do nothing? No. But the only solution may be each of us one at a time find for ourselves what to do with our lives.
 

Jo Canadian

Council Member
Mar 15, 2005
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Re: RE: France riots - Economic, Religious , or just hate ca

Some thoughts.

1. What can happen in France certainly can happen in any country that permits too large an immigration, causing less of a desire to assimilate into the dominant culture of the host country.
It can happen to ANY country. All you need is an unbalanced rich/poor class structure that caters to the rich at the expense of those less fortunate. Last time I checked, the last time France had these kind of riots sparked for similar reason....was the French revolution...nothing to do with immigrants there eh?


2. It is always a crazy irony that the rioting often destroys their own communities, often done by the young who destroy any slim gain their parents got. The mindless fun of it, the glee of it, the orgasmic running about with fire in their hands is a horror to those who are older and can't bounce back from the damage done.

Anger contributes to irrationallity, so does fear. My signature pretty much summs it up. :lol:

3. We wring our hands that ghettos exist in all of our countries. But we are an ant colony teeming over the globe, and only some of us will be Kings, some artists, some engineers, and many more just the low grunt trench diggers, and these percentages of who we are as human beings will never go away. There will always be a percentage of us who don't do as well as the next person and no social engineering will ever conquer the statistics of human demographics. So do we do nothing? No. But the only solution may be each of us one at a time find for ourselves what to do with our lives.

What if we aren't allowed to find ourselves, by someone else in one of the Higher positions? That just breeds resentment...now lets try that en masse.