More US TORTURE

Ocean Breeze

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Posted Friday, Sep. 23, 2005
The U.S. Army has launched a criminal investigation into new allegations of serious prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan made by a decorated former Captain in the Army's 82nd Airborne Division, an Army spokesman has confirmed to TIME. The claims of the Captain, who has not been named, are in part corroborated by statements of two sergeants who served with him in the 82nd Airborne; the allegations form the basis of a report from Human Rights Watch obtained by TIME and due to be released in the next few days (Since this story first went online, the organization has decided to put out its report; it can be found here). Senate sources tell TIME that the Captain has also reported his charges to three senior Republican senators: Majority Leader Bill Frist, Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner and John McCain, a former torture victim in Vietnam. A Senate Republican staffer familiar with both the Captain and his allegations told TIME he appeared "extremely credible."

The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base located near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the U.S. occupation in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the report and accounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004, before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, but prior to when the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described in the Human Rights report occurred at Camp Tiger, near Iraq's border with Syria, and previously in Afghanistan. In addition, the report details what the Captain says was his unsuccessful effort over 17 months to get the attention of military superiors. Ultimately he approached the Republican senators.

The Human Rights Watch report—as well as accounts given to Senate staff—describe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring or covering it up, amid chronic confusion over U.S. military detention policies and whether or not the Geneva Convention applied. The Captain is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel at Camp Mercury directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them to extremes of heat and cold—all methods designed to produce greater cooperation with interrogators. Non-uniformed personnel—apparently working for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to the soldiers—also interrogated prisoners. The interrogators were out of view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they came to believe was abuse.

Specific instances of abuse described in the Human Rights Watch report include severe beatings, including one incident when a soldier allegedly broke a detainee's leg with a metal bat. Others include prisoners being stacked in human pyramids (unlike the human pyramids at Abu Ghraib, the prisoners at Camp Mercury were clothed); soldiers administering blows to the face, chest and extremities of prisoners; and detainees having their faces and eyes exposed to burning chemicals, being forced into stress positions for long periods leading to unconsciousness and having their water and food withheld.

Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced "pucks")—or "persons under control." A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says, involved off-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as "F____a PUC" (beating the prisoner) and "Smoke a PUC" (forced physical exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and similar painful injuries would be treated with analgesics, the soldiers claim, as medical staff would fill out paperwork stating the injuries occurred during capture. Support for some of the allegations of abuse come from a sergeant of the 82nd Airborne who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Human Rights Watch quotes him as saying that, "To 'F____ a PUC' means to beat him up. We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull them down, kick dirt on them. This happened every day. To 'smoke' someone is to put them in stress positions until they get muscle fatigue and pass out. That happened every day. Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement.

"On their day off people would show up all the time," the sergeant continues in the HRW report. "Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport. The cooks were all U.S. soldiers. One day a sergeant shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy's leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. He was the cook."

The sergeant says that military intelligence officers would tell soldiers that the detainees "were bad" and had been involved in killing or trying to kill Americans, implying that they deserved whatever punishment they got. "I would be told, 'These guys were IED [improvised explosive device] trigger men last week.' So we would f___ them up. F___ them up bad ... At the same time we should be held to a higher standard. I know that now. It was wrong. There are a set of standards. But you gotta understand, this was the norm. Everyone would just sweep it under the rug ... We should never have been allowed to watch guys we had fought."

The Captain making the allegations, say those who have been in contact with him, gave lengthy statements to Human Rights Watch only after his attempts to report what he had seen and heard to his own chain of command, were met, he claims, with repeated brush-offs. He is currently in special forces training at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The two non-commissioned officers served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and likewise approached the watchdog group, but have not conferred with Senate staff. "The captain is a very sincere officer, and troubled by what he says he has seen," says another senior aide to a Republican senator. "Only an investigation can determine how accurate his account will prove to be."
 

Hank C Cheyenne

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Whatever, you don't think that some of these muslim govnt's commit crimes and oppress their own people. How about the islamic extremists who kill poor people looking for jobs & slaughter childern. Sure the US is responsible for some humans rights abuses, but you should also be talking about the terrorist and how to solve the problems. All you do is critisize but have no ideas to solve the problems. And please don't give me the crap about if the US pulled out tomorrow Iraq would be better off, it would just be over run my islamic terrorists and all moderates would be killed.
 

Ocean Breeze

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And please don't give me the crap about if the US pulled out tomorrow Iraq would be better off, it would just be over run my islamic terrorists and all moderates would be killed.

again: on what FACTS do you make this assessment/ statement??


the root cause of terrorism must be addressed too. What contributes to such anger that it evolves into acts of terror?? What contributes to situations where people would blow themselves up .......as they have nothing to lose??? If for a single moment .......you believe that bush's WAR counter terrorism tactic is working........ then the problem is yours too. All he has done is foster the potential for more HATE, more ANGER, and therefore more Terrorism. Terrorists have time and patience to their advantage. They don't have to do anythng "active" for a long time now. Particularly when bush inc. keeps reminding the population of their existence and threat factor. Bush and his goons can do all the shoot em up they want.........but will never get a handle on the real issue of terrorism . All bush has done is establish a pathological co-dependancy with the "terrorists".-----and now they feed off each other. They have become mutually parasitic. Bush needs the terrorists more than the terrorists need bush. He needs them in order to give his "presidency" a focus.......um.....keep the US population "safe". ......from same "terrorists". And the terrorists are quite happy to oblige. "A "marriage "made in hell"

One does not treat other nations, peoples , the way the US has for years now.........and not breed ANGER, RESENTMENT.. and even hate. All these are componants of terrorism. Add the religious twist/zeal to it.......and one has a prescription for disaster.

One must look beyond the rhetoric, spin and LIES.
 

Ocean Breeze

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mrmom2 said:
Those who are not against torture need to expierence it themselves :roll: :roll:

indeed. In fact there just might be a few members here that should volunteer to be prisoners of the US. They can come back and report the "experience"....


(then , there is the possibility that they are masochistic.. :wink:
 

spidercide

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Sep 24, 2005
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Ocen Wrote:
again: on what FACTS do you make this assessment/ statement??

I would say on history, the history of Afganistan. When the Soviets pulled out. The extremists came in and well look where that led us.

Contra, Vietnam, any of the world hotspots where the warfare ceased and the militaries left the poulace(for good or ill). If it is an extremist government it will crush all dissident. Oh and I don't talk about third worl or arabic countries either. Hitler came into Germany with an extrmist party. Or are you going to say that the holocaust never hapened either.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: More US TORTURE

spidercide said:
Ocen Wrote:
again: on what FACTS do you make this assessment/ statement??

I would say on history, the history of Afganistan. When the Soviets pulled out. The extremists came in and well look where that led us.

Contra, Vietnam, any of the world hotspots where the warfare ceased and the militaries left the poulace(for good or ill). If it is an extremist government it will crush all dissident. Oh and I don't talk about third worl or arabic countries either. Hitler came into Germany with an extrmist party. Or are you going to say that the holocaust never hapened either.

hmm. interesting. But it seems that one must evaluate a situation within the framework it exists and in the time frame it exists.


( another angry Albertan??? So sad!! )


......an aside: can hardly believe how much many Albertans sound like the bushcons of the US. Does Alberta still belong to Canada??? ..........but I digress)
 

spidercide

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Ocean Wrote:
"( another angry Albertan??? So sad!! )

......an aside: can hardly believe how much many Albertans sound like the bushcons of the US. Does Alberta still belong to Canada??? ..........but I digress)"

Wow, just wow. First you dismiss it as timeframe. Should have told the Jews and Christian-Afgans that they were just in the wrong time. Sorry.
Neat how I am just an angry Albertan, why? because I dispute your slant.
Oh and Alberta doesn't belong to anybody but Albertans. Check our Constitution. Canada doesn't own anything except for responsibilities of services. Which it routinly fails to live up too.
 

Ocean Breeze

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back to US torture. Maybe there is no time frame. Maybe society has not evolved at all in any era /period. Torture is torture. Sadism , is sadism. No country ,is better than another......just different. Humanity's darkness lurks close to the surface......at all times. The difference is that now we have 24/7 coverage of events......and are supposed to be more savvy about things.
 

Hank C Cheyenne

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I say if the US is able to pull out tommorow without the possibility of islamic extremists taking over then I am all for it. I would even switch sides and protest if they did not leave.

The problems lies in the fact that we dont know for sure. I mean there are no facts to say what would happen if the US pulled out tomorrow. What I base my opinion on however, is that everyday we see extremists killing, car bombing, kidnapping poloticians ....ect. Its gotten soo bad they don't even aim for Americans anymore, they jsut go up to job fairs, places of prayer, iraqi police and commit mass murder.

It jsut seems hard to believe that if the troops pulled out tommorow that the Iraqi police force would be able to hold up against these constant attacks. I don't trust that the iraqi people would be safe from another oppressive dictator or taliban type regeim. I think this is what we are all worried about, indifference to the US should be put aside at this time if you truly believe that leaving Iraqi people alone to fend for theirselfs is a bad idea. Because at the end of the day you get to live here in Canada........ while the Iraq people have to deal with the terrorists.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: More US TORTURE

Hank C Cheyenne said:
I say if the US is able to pull out tommorow without the possibility of islamic extremists taking over then I am all for it. I would even switch sides and protest if they did not leave.

The problems lies in the fact that we dont know for sure. I mean there are no facts to say what would happen if the US pulled out tomorrow. What I base my opinion on however, is that everyday we see extremists killing, car bombing, kidnapping poloticians ....ect. Its gotten soo bad they don't even aim for Americans anymore, they jsut go up to job fairs, places of prayer, iraqi police and commit mass murder.

It jsut seems hard to believe that if the troops pulled out tommorow that the Iraqi police force would be able to hold up against these constant attacks. I don't trust that the iraqi people would be safe from another oppressive dictator or taliban type regeim. I think this is what we are all worried about, indifference to the US should be put aside at this time if you truly believe that leaving Iraqi people alone to fend for theirselfs is a bad idea. Because at the end of the day you get to live here in Canada........ while the Iraq people have to deal with the terrorists.


Isn't this what they have military analysts for??? There are people supposedly trained to ANTICIPATE situations and outcomes. The problem is........that most of this was anticipated before bush went ahead and invaded ( on a series of fecking lies too). Bush would not listen to reason or the cautionary statements made by many of the wiser people around in Washington. The thing was foolhardy, foolish from the onset. Of course the cute little catch phrase now is : what is done is done......and we have to move forward. Unfortunately this callousness does not take into account the destruction, death that this insanity has incurred to date.

this Iraq invasion and everything that has followed has been the most STUPID thing the US has ever done. (and it has done some stupid things in the past. ! One would think they have learned from their own mistakes and stupidity and yet it seems not. So blinded are they by power, money and more power/ control . The world has now seen the torture that the US is capable of and passively condons.... ( After all , it is WAR.......and THEY are the ones that STARTED it ) .........but sadly one can only guess at what the world has not seen. Too many secret prisons now and too my secrecy /privacy. ------which are reminiscent of concentration camps. If they have nothing to hide.......why keep them secret???

but back to anticipating the outcomes of certain actions. One can entertain the idea of removing the US from Iraq.....on the basis that the US is the catalyst for much of the anger/angst there. There are no guarentees with the troops staying. either. .....as we have seen over the past long months. New and smart tactics are needed and active troops withdrawl on a staged/gradual basis might be the smart thing to do. ............but bush has NO Intentions of recalling the troops. He and his ilk are too busy building massive military bases in Iraq......which guarantees the protracted presence of the US in THEIR country without being invited. Bush is not going to let go of the controls in Iraq ......not without some serious whimpering .....He wanted Iraq just too badly to let go now........and will keep deluding the population with tranquilizing phrases of reasurances.---that things are progressing as they should.......and other such BS.
 

Hank C Cheyenne

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..........forget bush we obviously have different angles on this and arguing endlessly is boring.

"One can entertain the idea of removing the US from Iraq.....on the basis that the US is the catalyst for much of the anger/angst there. There are no guarentees with the troops staying. either. .....as we have seen over the past long months. New and smart tactics are needed and active troops withdrawl on a staged/gradual basis might be the smart thing to do"

i could actually somewhat aggree with this statement. Maybe if the US left tomorrow Iraq would develop into a decent country and the govn't and people would be able to depress the extremists. Maybe. It could also possibly have the exact opposite effect and the country be hijjacked.

Maybe a slow gradual withdraw of US troops would cause the militants to see the US as weakend and only further reassure & motivate them to reshape Iraq in their way. Or maybe the anger/angst would subside with the withdrawl and ................

I guess the future will hold the answer to one of these questions..............
 

Ocean Breeze

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..........forget bush we obviously have different angles on this and arguing endlessly is boring.

don't know about that. One never knows when a good idea might come out of all this "arguing' ........or discussing/debating.

NO WAY to leave bush out of this equation. He and his compadres are right smak in the middle of this........having STARTED this mess. Too many lies under the bridge now. .......and this is having consequences for them bushcons. Who in their right mind would believe anything they say now anyhow??. Ergo , it is imperative to learn as much /read as much as one can in order to stay as informed as possible. ......and formulate thoughts/opinions on those findings. Sometimes the key is in the nuance. Those in the know, should have the ability , capability to assess this situation a lot more accurately than is apparent. With all the fancy US technology...... they still cannot determine some basic facts. .......and continue to rely on barbaric actions........ all the while not even knowing WHO they are killing.. or who their "enemy' is any longer. Doesn't seem to stop the propaganda machinery though , does it??


(IF nothing more.........troop withdrawl is one tactic the US has not tried yet. Everything else they have done has resulted in disaster , torture, kidnappings, increased terrorism and gosh knows what else...........so why the heck not try it??? Why be afraid of what will happen in Iraq now....... when people were not afraid to invade , kill and destroy. .....on an elective lying basis??? Maybe Iraq will just have to go through its own stages of evolution now.... as they sure as heck have a lot of reconstruction to do. And here again.........why isn't this being done by Iraqis while funded by the destroyers ( the US)??? Iraqis need to feel involved in the building. reshaping of their own country. They know their culture, their long rich history, their traditions..........better than any damned yankee does.......so why are the yanks handling all the reconstruction contracts. One big lie, after another. and this is what is so disagreeable. Lies upon lies that have cause death and destruction on some fairy tale "mission" (designed by a bloke with a double digit IQ. ) Like the US gives a damn about Iraqi LIVES.....All the US has ever been concerned about it itself. ......and if killing will achieve that......so be it.
 

JomZ

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Reentering the Fray at CC.net
You can't forget Bush, he is the catalyst of this situation and is now and forever how we will remember this point in history.

Torture is not an effective interrogation method. Its been a proven point, that its either ineffective or inefficient. Yet, as a more civilized society, we must forgo these barbaric practices such as torture; but then again it is a warzone, and wars by nature are barbaric.

All people, not just American, must realize this fact or they will be stuck in a perpetual cycle of conflict. Unfortunately, America being the largest military force ever known is stuck like this. Its apart of their culture, history, economy, and social conscious.


It is unfortunate for me to say that America cannot leave Iraq on their own accord. It would be a far worse injustice to these people and those who have died. The situation there is too tense for anything but either civil war or genocide. They are faced with a quagmire that mirrors what happened in Rwanda and Afghanistan.

Yet, too build a democracy in a country where the existence of man apparently began maybe too far out of reach for even the most wishful thinker. Here thousands upon thousands of years of history and tribal animosity exist. I guess many of us are all just wishful thinkers.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Yet, too build a democracy in a country where the existence of man apparently began maybe too far out of reach for even the most wishful thinker. Here thousands upon thousands of years of history and tribal animosity exist. I guess many of us are all just wishful thinkers


good points. The fact remains......that one cannot Impose or bring in a democracy from the outside ........the way the US tried to do...... or claimed as a purpose of this mission ( when all others failed).

Iraq will become what Iraqis want it to become.......if given a chance . But right now......the mess created by this barbarian war of choice is too fragile.

An option might be : Get the UN more actively involved, get more assistance from the international community on the basis that the US will pull out on a graduated basis. AND show evidence of same. As long as the US is determined to do it "it's way".....no nation is eager to get involved as it will get burnt by the US big time. As long as the US intends to control Iraq directly or indirectly.........not much will change for a while. This still can be handled constructively but the US would have to surrender some of it's control .......if not all of it. And the US is not going to do it without some serious whimpering.
 

JomZ

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An option might be : Get the UN more actively involved, get more assistance from the international community on the basis that the US will pull out on a graduated basis. AND show evidence of same. As long as the US is determined to do it "it's way".....no nation is eager to get involved as it will get burnt by the US big time. As long as the US intends to control Iraq directly or indirectly.........not much will change for a while. This still can be handled constructively but the US would have to surrender some of it's control .......if not all of it. And the US is not going to do it without some serious whimpering.

I totally agree with you on that part. I agree that the solution to Iraq will be the gradual reduction of direct U.S. presence and a more global imperative to bring a stabilizing force to Iraq. Which will allow a more progressive stride by the Iraqi's to develop a country of their own.

The U.N. seems to be the best choice, yet it begs to recall the past performances of this institution. They are underfunded, over-regulated, and bogged down with bureaucracy that I really don't think they are able to do a good job. I believe there is not an institution outside the U.S. that could handle such a task. This situation will take something new, something different.
 

Ocean Breeze

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This situation will take something new, something different.

agree completely. NEW ideas, creative , ingenuity , and thinking is called for. ..........and as yet not seen .

Don't think the US can handle this either. Main reason: the US has no clue to the history , culture , traditions of Iraq.......and if Iraq is to rebuild into a true Iraq of its own identity......it's history must be preserved. (othewise the Iraqis will be playing the same role the originals people in Hawaii do........ as tourist attractions....) The US is far too insensitive to nuance and far too inclined to bully, demand and kill (expedience) to get a job done. Does not work that way. And the obvious . the US has not done any great job so far. (unless you buy into the neo con lies that they keep churning out to the point where they might now believe them too. )

Still think the UN would stand a better chance.... BUT with international assistance and some controls built into it . A built in audit system......for the expenditures, the rate of reconstruction, ethical standards , performance reviews, undoctored progress reports, the enhancement of security until such security measures are no longer needed. IF the US is serious about granting Iraq its "freedom"........the best gift it could give it now.......is the staged withdrawl.......and serious and distinct plan of withdrawl....... , put any construction of military bases on hold, (until that can be negotiated properly and respectfully as opposed to simply TAKING what the US wants. It also means that reconstruction JOBS must go to the Iraqis .......but the funding must come from the destroyer ( the US).