9-11 WTC anniversary : perspective

[Karlin]

10,000 huge bunker-busting nuclear tipped bombs in one night, for comparison.

Just a few of those huge US airforce bombs going off in any city in America would raise a commotion bigger than that of the WTC plane-struck buildings did. A bigger hole in the ground, more damage, more deaths. Just like in Iraq.

Keeping perspective means envisioning being in Baghdad or 100 other Iraq cities and towns , even now three years on. Its not even comparable to the 9-11 WTC episode. Cleanup and rebuilding is not even on the map in Iraq, whereas the WTC and New York is almost normal within a few weeks.

Maybe the Katrina hurricane starts to be comparable to Iraq. Thats more what life in IRaq is like right now. They need our help too - suffering dying hungry dried out semi-dead people by the millions in Iraq.

HELP??? All we have to do to alleviate Iraqi suffering is to STOP DOING IT TO THEM. But we continue with the futile exersize of eliminating terrorists, a task that anyone can see is impossible. If America needs to be protected from terrorists - stop creating them for one thing. The other issue is that not one attack has been mounted IN AMERICA since 9-11 WTC - is USA security THAT good?> no, the terrorists never attack INSIDE America - thats a bin Laden quote. If they wanted to blow up a train or just a suicide bomber on the city streets, it could have been done easily. They just don't do that in America

Of course, that means 9-11 being perpetrated by the Pres. -
"an event like Peral Harbour but on American soil is what we need to go all the way into Baghdad"
- Rumsfeld quote in 1991.

And on this day, we should remember THAT.

And ask why Bldg #7 fell down, what those eplosion were heard by firefighters on lower floors, and all the other curiousities about that day. Let some people who have been silenced speak up about 9-11, that is how we should honor the victims.

Instead, this day is being used as a way to forget Katrina victims. We can be sure that the amount of money spent reacting to 9-11 will not be matched for these poor black victims of New Orleans., despite the fact that the scope of the tragedy is hundreds of times larger than 9-11.

9-11 was small potatoes - a few buildings and a few thousand victims. Its not even close to the damage done to Iraq, even if calculating the benefits of having Saddam removed. And Katrina too of course.

Future episodes of equal or greater consequences will be perpetrated upon us unless we change the American leadership soon. Since that won't happen, brace yourself, and love your neighbors - remember that "they" want us to kill each other off - don't make it easy for them, make them do it. Non-violence will screw up their plans completely... we are so predictably violent. Restrain yourselves.

 

[Andem]

This article puts things into perspective.. this is the view I have had all along. But some people keep on ignoring the facts as outlined here. Shame.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: 9-11 WTC anniversary : perspective

This article puts things into perspective.. this is the view I have had all along. But some people keep on ignoring the facts as outlined here. Shame.

agree...

 

[yballa09]

9-11 was small potatoes - a few buildings and a few thousand victims. Its not even close to the damage done to Iraq, even if calculating the benefits of having Saddam removed. And Katrina too of course.

9-11 was small potatoes?? wow, what a low person you are, I guess you weren't in any way affected by it, sitting on your high and mighty pedestal spewing lies any way that you can. Go tell that to the millions of people affected by it, that it was 'small potatoes'. But anyways... the civilian damage done by the U.S. army is not far different than 9-11, as odd as that might sound to most of you. Around 3000 died in 9-11 if I can recall correctly? And around 8000 casualities have occurred because of the U.S. army in Iraq. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr12.php. I am not defending the war, just saying that that is a far cry to what Saddam Hussein did and would have still been doing if he were in power today, killing at least half a million of his own people.http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2005814231422.asp

Instead, this day is being used as a way to forget Katrina victims. We can be sure that the amount of money spent reacting to 9-11 will not be matched for these poor black victims of New Orleans., despite the fact that the scope of the tragedy is hundreds of times larger than 9-11.

I didnt realize it was a crime to mourn for loved ones killed once a year from terrorist attacks, but i guess im just not with the times. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9250306/ Seems to me like over 50 billion (from previous donations, bills and future money added) to be at least 100 billion, that Bush really didnt care about this situation because the people were black. Btw, that really gets me laughing how so many people can even consider that. Lets think about this for a second... I can just see Pres. Bush calling up FEMA and other organizations on the phone, "hey guys, we're gonna have to delay this aid 1 or 2 days. Ya, i know, we might get it rough from the media, but we can't go right away, i just learned that theres a large number of african americans living down there. Sorry boys, but we gotta keep a leg up on these evil doers." Wow, you guys sure do crack me up! Ahh, yes, 9-11 is the blame today for detracting attention from hurricane victims, not you idiots and your allegations (with zero proof whatsoever, but keep it coming, i could always use a good laugh) that the slow aid was because ofthe victims color. If so, what was Bush going to do with all the white victims? Surely he couldnt just let those pure aryan people suffer amongst lesser, black human humans. But all that matters is that there were black people, and the slow aid is definetely because of that, and that alone.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

9-11 was small potatoes - a few buildings and a few thousand victims. Its not even close to the damage done to Iraq, even if calculating the benefits of having Saddam removed. And Katrina too of course.

9-11 was small potatoes?? wow, what a low person you are, I guess you weren't in any way affected by it, sitting on your high and mighty pedestal spewing lies any way that you can. Go tell that to the millions of people affected by it, that it was 'small potatoes'. But anyways... the civilian damage done by the U.S. army is not far different than 9-11, as odd as that might sound to most of you. Around 3000 died in 9-11 if I can recall correctly? And around 8000 casualities have occurred because of the U.S. army in Iraq. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr12.php. I am not defending the war, just saying that that is a far cry to what Saddam Hussein did and would have still been doing if he were in power today, killing at least half a million of his own people.http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2005814231422.asp

Instead, this day is being used as a way to forget Katrina victims. We can be sure that the amount of money spent reacting to 9-11 will not be matched for these poor black victims of New Orleans., despite the fact that the scope of the tragedy is hundreds of times larger than 9-11.

I didnt realize it was a crime to mourn for loved ones killed once a year from terrorist attacks, but i guess im just not with the times. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9250306/ Seems to me like over 50 billion (from previous donations, bills and future money added) to be at least 100 billion, that Bush really didnt care about this situation because the people were black. Btw, that really gets me laughing how so many people can even consider that. Lets think about this for a second... I can just see Pres. Bush calling up FEMA and other organizations on the phone, "hey guys, we're gonna have to delay this aid 1 or 2 days. Ya, i know, we might get it rough from the media, but we can't go right away, i just learned that theres a large number of african americans living down there. Sorry boys, but we gotta keep a leg up on these evil doers." Wow, you guys sure do crack me up! Ahh, yes, 9-11 is the blame today for detracting attention from hurricane victims, not you idiots and your allegations (with zero proof whatsoever, but keep it coming, i could always use a good laugh) that the slow aid was because ofthe victims color. If so, what was Bush going to do with all the white victims? Surely he couldnt just let those pure aryan people suffer amongst lesser, black human humans. But all that matters is that there were black people, and the slow aid is definetely because of that, and that alone.

O9 : understand that you are new here. SO welcome. just a wee thought on your impassioned, passionate post....... it is sometimes very wise to clear ones emotional reactions in order to gain some objectivity. The situation here is quite complex and made all the more "delicate" because it is a red hot political issue now. The variables are countless. ....... but one thing is very clear ...... FEMA was changed in nature, organization etc. Result: inefficient. Bush's re-organization of agencies has backfired and THAT is obvious . .......and even though the blame/ er / responsibility lies all the way up the bureacratic chain .....the buck stops with the bush gang ... who tried to control too much, and are losing control now. Ineffective leadership all the way up ......to the top . And there is far too much that is still unknown......as the bush regime has gained a reputation for xtreme secrecy. ( THAT alone is very concerning)

 

[JomZ]

Look, I personally feel regret for those who died on September 11th as do many people on this board. No Human Should suffer the fate of those poor souls. But it doesn't excuse the fact that events like this are happening around the world at an alarming rate.

The U.S.'s response to 9/11 has served little more then to aggrevate and widen the conflict and the possibilities for more terrorism.

8,000 people dead in Iraq? You say

Findings include:
Who was killed?
24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years.
Women and children accounted for almost 20% of all civilian deaths.
Baghdad alone recorded almost half of all deaths.
When did they die?
30% of civilian deaths occurred during the invasion phase before 1 May 2003.
Post-invasion, the number of civilians killed was almost twice as high in year two (11,351) as in year one (6,215).
Who did the killing?
US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.
What was the most lethal weaponry?
Over half (53%) of all civilian deaths involved explosive devices.
Air strikes caused most (64%) of the explosives deaths.
Children were disproportionately affected by all explosive devices but most severely by air strikes and unexploded ordnance (including cluster bomblets).
How many were injured?
At least 42,500 civilians were reported wounded.
The invasion phase caused 41% of all reported injuries.
Explosive weaponry caused a higher ratio of injuries to deaths than small arms.
The highest wounded-to-death ratio incidents occurred during the invasion phase.

That doesn't look like no 8,000 dead to me. Yes, you could say that 8,000 were directly killed by U.S. soldiers, its a warzone after all. The fact of the matter is that 46% of all people killed by this war and the rest were extra collateral damage due to the uprise in crime and chaos.

Saddam Hussein was dictator, there was no denying that, many of the countries have dictators. Its the old MEDIEVAL political mentality of "Might makes Right; I have the most guns and better soldiers. So I call the shots." So why is the U.S. pursuing matters in the same way?


Now for Katrina, and why Bush should take the blame somewhat.


Pres. Bush appointed Michael Brown to the head of FEMA under the jurisdiction of Homeland Security. Brown was basically a bureaucrat with no knowledge of handling major disasters. So why was he there? Simply because he was a friend of Bush's and he needed a good job. He was simply signature and a name on a form. Now any rational human being can see that a person that is handling disaster management should be somewhat knowledgable in disaster relief (This post should have been given to a military officer at least.)


When Katrina happened Michael Brown had no clue how to deal with the situation and the nightly news teams tore him apart so badly, that it made this whole situation worse. I mean its one thing to allow a disaster to happen, its another to be stupid enough to be in way over your head and not realize it and get someone in there who does.


Why do some people look back on 9-11 with little empathy, is because the government shows the same lack of empathy for those who it is suppose to protect and help.

 

[yballa09]

Sorry if i came off a little pro-bush, but if i had to choose between being pro or against, id choose pro. Plus having lived in both the states and canada i can get a good take on all different views of politics in the states, while many people in canada receive the terribly biased views towards the U.S. And although there have been allegations towards the Bush administration regarding various things, there has yet to be any sound proof or evidence. Many people on this board about Bush as if he had been convicted and sentenced to the death penalty. I was not trying to put down the person who i quoted, he/she just seemed to be saying very bold things with nothing to back it up. You make a statement and back it up, then i could very well agree with you.
The war in iraq is a very serious issue, and even with the facts on how destructive the U.S. army has been there, and what Saddam had done in the past regarding massacres, democide, and failing numerous U.N. inspections, many people will simply argue 'do the ends justify the means', and rightly so. We have yet to see the final results, but IMO, if Iraq becomes a democratic, republic society within the next few years, i believe the war would have served its rightful purpose and not only improved but saved who knows how many lives. This has yet to be determined.
With regards to Hurricane Katrina, the aid has been sub-par. Pres. Bush even said so himself. I did not argue that, I simply argued the thought that it came 1, at most 2 days late because of race. What do these accusers base these radical opinions on? Would people who are racist put eventually over 100 billion dollars to repair damage (i imagine the number will grow to much more than that when everything becomes clearer). I mean, Kanye West's remarks at the concert for hurricane relief was way too uncalled for. What was he hoping to accomplish? These people who throw accusations like that are simply dividing the country even further than it already is. There has been more talk about slow aid and race, which simply detracts from what really needs to be going on. Anyways, i realize everyone here detests the U.S. government and their 'neo-con' policies, but im just saying that there are indeed perposterous allegations that warrant no attention, yet receive much of it from various media sources.

 

[JomZ]

First off, welcome.
Second off, Space out your writing it makes for an easier read.


With the way Iraq is going Yball, democracy looks like a long shot and civil war looks more probable. There is way too much tension between the three major factions, the whole constitution thing is just the first foot to fall. Remember if civil war breaks out it will cause a major refugee problem on top of the one that already exists (Remember Rwanda, same scenario different area of the world.)

The other factor is the U.S.'s lagging in the building of this democracy. The costs of building are far outside the monetary realm that the U.S. is willing to commit to this operation. Reconstruction projects are being finished with poor results or being abandoned.

Although some people will make poor assertions. The majority of the complaints (on this board too) is about the lack of leadership on Katrina, leans more to the ineptitude of FEMA and profiteering of Corporate America, rather then a race conspiracy.

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[yballa09]

I know there are many doubts regarding the war in iraq, and rightly so. It will be difficult for democracy to exist in a place that has never known it, and the Iraqi people are the ones deciding on the constitution, which could make it a very difficult situation. The U.S. went into Japan after WWII and basically wrote their Constitution, and it has worked out woderfully, but although some of the factors between the two are comparable, much isn't as well.

Although I am not saying there should be no blame on the federal government, because there should be (and thank you for dismissing the obsurd thought of race involved in this), it just seems like more should have been done at both the city level and federal level in preparing for this. It had been known, and various experts predicted this happening because of where New Orleans is located and it's situation being below sea level. You can never blame a natural disaster on anyone, but the city of New Orleans ignored their situation completely, even more than the federal government did. This has nothing to do with the relief efforts after, just simply what could have been done before.

 

[JomZ]

The U.S. went into Japan after WWII and basically wrote their Constitution, and it has worked out woderfully, but although some of the factors between the two are comparable, much isn't as well.

Well I guess allowing the U.S.A to re-write the constitution of Japan is a small price to pay rather then face utter NUCLEAR annilhation . But, what Japan realized after the war is if they can't beat us Militarily they can beat us Economically.

Japan's technological sector is lightyears ahead of North American. And many of the surrounding countries are following suit (Korea, Taiwan). Most major electronic brands is from the Asian market. (Examples - Sony and LG)

Japan's car industry (althought the cars are built in North America) has forced the U.S. big three to begin to revolutionize their designs, models, and management.

Japan also bolsters a longer average life span.
total population: 81.15 years
male: 77.86 years
female: 84.61 years (2005 est.)

Compared to the U.S.A's
total population: 77.71 years
male: 74.89 years
female: 80.67 years (2005 est.)

and Canada's
total population: 80.1 years
male: 76.73 years
female: 83.63 years (2005 est.)

Source: CIA World Fact book

Its not that the U.S.'s actual writing of the democracy that made things work out for Japan. It was that Japan itself moved away from a imperialist mentality to foreign exchange and moved to a capitalist one. They learned from American industry and improved it for use in their country. So America did export democracy, just not as directly as they thought. Money makes the world go around not words.