There is no military solution to terrorism.

Hard-Luck Henry

Council Member
Feb 19, 2005
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At the time of writing, and as the death toll rises to 50+, no group has yet claimed the responsibility for the London bombings. I'm sure somebody will eventually attempt to offer their 'reasons', but no language can rationalise this sort of random carnage. Arbitrarily setting bombs in public places cannot be justified by anyone who claims to be participating in any political dialogue. It is killing for the sake of killing. Any explanation will not, cannot, be based on reason, but on an absurd, fundamentalist dogma that shows no sympathy for any man, woman or child who does not share those twisted beliefs. This has been described, by some, as an attack on our values. It needs to be remembered, as we respond to this, that key amongst those values is a tolerance and respect for those of other cultures, religions and beliefs. The fundamentalists' hateful belief that people of different faith or ethnicity cannot coexist peacefully must not prevail.
We'll be hearing a lot this week about the threat of Islamic fundamentalism to our world. However,to say that these extremists represent Islam is like saying that those who carried out the massacre of thousands of muslims at Srebrinica - the worst terrorist atrocity Europe has seen since the Second World War, 10 years ago this month, to our great shame - somehow represent Christianity. To do so would be just what the terrorists - and the worst of the 'hawks' - would want.

It's been well documented that Al-Qaida was a creation of western security agencies, I'll not go over old ground here. But, to respond to events like the London bombings through confrontation and military action, will surely compound this gravest of mistakes. To speak of war merely gives succour to the terrorists, and denies more moderate elements in the Muslim world a stage. We need to isolate the terrorists from their support, from new funds and recruits. To do this we have to cooperate with the Muslim world, not concentrate on what divides us, and start to do something about the poverty and misery, and other wider issues, that provide the breeding ground for terrorism and fundamentalism. It's ironic, then, that as world leaders meet in Scotland to discuss such things, Muslim countries are excluded from those meetings. In my view, a war on poverty would do more for the security of the west than a war on terror.

I don't believe we will ever totally eradicate terrorism. Some terrorists - and Bin Laden could be cited as an example of this - are disaffected intellectuals, often from wealthy families, educated in Europe, with a good understanding of the tactics and politics they employ. Even if grievances were met, some people would go on with terrorism for it's own sake. In general, though, those who carry out killings come from the sort of background where poverty and, often, genuine injustice have fed their discontent. This is the root cause of much of today's terrorism. Of course, there is no single, comprehensive explanation for terrorism. No scientific sociopolitical theory of terrorism exists, since there is such a wide range of motives, intentions, participants and organisational structure involved. There is no profile of the typical terrorist and no typical motive beyond unrequitted dissent. What is clear, though, is that no solution to the problem is conceivable that does not reconnect disaffected, politicised young adults with society. The answer to that lies in the political process, and not in military retaliation. Those world leaders at Gleneagles (and elsewhere) need to me made to realise this, and we should demand that they begin to take some real action to alleviate the very problems they've helped to create in our names. At the end of the day, it's us who end up paying the price, and not them. (I appreciate that sounds a little trite, but there you are).

Besides, whatever the justifications given for the invasion of Iraq - and the wider war on terror - it can no longer be defended on the grounds that, in fighting the terrorists abroad, we are protecting ourselves from terrorism at home.
 

Lithp

Electoral Member
Mar 16, 2005
114
1
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RE: There is no military

Terrorists only understand one thing-violence. They only answer to one thing- violence.Islamic extremists kill those who would negotiate- including fellow muslims. As much as I hate violence this is the only answer to this problem. The extremists must be killed. Will this solve the problem? Never! But this is not about solving the problem, this is about answering it. There will always be terrorism-we all know that. It's our duty to negotiate with those who will negotiate and kill those who would kill us. Should we invade a nation to accomplish this aim? No. Should we attack known terrorist targets? Yes. Will innocent lives be lost with this approach? Certainly (and what a pity it is).
I admit. This is a foolhearty approach to the problem. But terrorists have no logic either. Their belief is Islamic fundamentalism. Let's not kid ourselves here. The Koran instructs that the infidels be killed. Yet at the same time it promotes tolerance. It is the interpretation that makes a person a terrorist or not.
Terrorist theology is based on attrition: the more lives affected the better. Our response should also be the same. The more terrorists killed the better.
The fewer the terrorists, the lesser the amount of terror,hence the greater the likelihood that negotiation can prevail
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
Christians were committing genocide against the muslims in Serbia. Anyway you cut it, its a form of terrorism. Intervention was necessary in this instance.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
RE: There is no military

The genocide in Serbia was easier to combat though, ITN. It was far different than blowing up trains. It was an internal conflict.

Military intervention doesn't work in this case. It is largely western intervention that they are fighting against. bin Laden has said that his main beef was the continued presence of the US on Muslim holy land. That was before Iraq. Now consider that Iraq contains holy sites second in importance only to Mecca. Are the extremists going to back off, or increase their attempts?

You know how to fight this kind of terror? Look at the root causes. History can't be changed, put the present can. Stop propping up extremist regimes. Make rules for corporations operating abroad that benefit the people in the countries they are operating in. Respect other country's sovereignty and the cultures and religions of the people there.

The intelligence community calls what is happening "blowback". They know that there are root causes for terrorism...that it is a reaction to our actions. If the politicians would admit that, it would be a start.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/etc/today.html

"+ The Face of the New Global Jihad

In one of the first comprehensive non-governmental studies of its kind, Dr. Sageman collected data on 400 terrorists, focusing on those targeting the West as opposed to their own governments. He divided them into four large clusters: the old leadership of Al Qaeda; the Magreb Arabs (people from North Africa, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria), including the second generation who grew up in Western Europe and whose parents come from those regions; the "core" Arabs (Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians, Yemenis and Kuwatis); and Southeast Asians (Indonesians). The results, he says were surprising.

"It turns out that the terrorists are very much like us," he says. "They're not really all that different." In a 2004 speech, Sageman explained, "Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing -- the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they're just plain evil."

But Sageman found that three quarters of his sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majority -- 90 percent -- came from caring, intact families. 63 percent had gone to college, as compared with the five to six percent typical in the third world. "These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways," he says.

The terrorists he studied were not, for example, "the Palestinian 14-year-olds we see on the news," but they joined the jihad at an average age of 26. Three-quarters were professionals or semi-professionals. They are engineers, architects, and civil engineers. Bin Laden himself is a civil engineer, his right-hand man Ayman al-Zawahiri is a physician, and the 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta was an architect."
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
RE: There is no military

...And what would your response be if I forcefully took over your church, Jay?

Think you'd fight back? I bet you would.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Re: RE: There is no military

Reverend Blair said:
The genocide in Serbia was easier to combat though, ITN. It was far different than blowing up trains. It was an internal conflict.

I know its different, I was only trying to make a point that sometimes intervention is require

Reverend Blair said:
Military intervention doesn't work in this case. It is largely western intervention that they are fighting against. bin Laden has said that his main beef was the continued presence of the US on Muslim holy land. That was before Iraq. Now consider that Iraq contains holy sites second in importance only to Mecca. Are the extremists going to back off, or increase their attempts?

I do not know if they will stop or not, but killing Iraqi citizens isn't the answer either

Reverend Blair said:
You know how to fight this kind of terror? Look at the root causes. History can't be changed, put the present can. Stop propping up extremist regimes. Make rules for corporations operating abroad that benefit the people in the countries they are operating in. Respect other country's sovereignty and the cultures and religions of the people there.

You mean the way Iraq respected Kuwait? The way the Arabs invaded Israel two days after the UN granted them the territory?

Reverend Blair said:
The intelligence community calls what is happening "blowback". They know that there are root causes for terrorism...that it is a reaction to our actions. If the politicians would admit that, it would be a start.

I can't argue with you on this, someone has to take the first step and say we have to rethink the actions of the west on the Arabs. I'm still wondering why nobody has extended an olive branch like that.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Ahhh were Presbyterians...if you wanted to, you could take us over with soup and sandwiches...


Is it a bit of a stretch to liken Iraq to a church?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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I think not said:
I can't argue with you on this, someone has to take the first step and say we have to rethink the actions of the west on the Arabs. I'm still wondering why nobody has extended an olive branch like that.

It isn't necessarily in our best interest to do so. If an infidel steps foot on the half of the planet they own they take a shit on us anyways.


How many Arab countries have we made stinking rich by buying their oil...and then they bitch at us for causing their poverty...
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
I don't think there is only ONE WAY, to deal with terrorism.

It's a multi-front battle and requires:

1. Attacking bank accounts
2. Monitoring muslim front groups
3. Monitoring and publicizing wahabbi hate schools
4. Threatening military action on a state
5. Dealing with "failed-state" nations
6. Making sure Live-8 deals with the corruption to
ensure the aid is well spent
7. Ensuring free global trade which trumps the value
of foreign aid every time
8. Publicizing the sin not just of America but also that
of those who hide behind the current hate-America fad
to use it as an excuse to kill your family.

9. Show the terrorists we are more capable in every manner of human vice or human virtue to spit on their psychosis.


By the way, Hard Luck Henry's post describing the profile of terrorism was excellent. We should not accept the reasons or excuses. Yet, disabling any possible negative military response, or any threatening response is something a bully welcomes.

In fact a bully or a clown or a terrorist will use whatever you throw back and use it in such a way to make you doubt your response was right.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
I know its different, I was only trying to make a point that sometimes intervention is require

Intervention is SOMETIMES required. That's what the UN is for.

I do not know if they will stop or not, but killing Iraqi citizens isn't the answer either

No, in fact it makes things worse.

You mean the way Iraq respected Kuwait? The way the Arabs invaded Israel two days after the UN granted them the territory?

Yeah, and you should invade Vietnam again to teach them a lesson and we'd better get busy going after Japan and Germany again for WWII.

Is it a bit of a stretch to liken Iraq to a church?

Not really. There are many sites in Iraq that are considered holy in the Islamic faith. It wasn't that long ago that the US flattened an entire cityu that was considered holy ground. Think there might be some hard feelings over that?

How many Arab countries have we made stinking rich by buying their oil...and then they bitch at us for causing their poverty...

How many totalitarian regimes have been propped up in the name of keeping the oil flowing? How many princes of the House of Saud have become billionaires while the common people were being persecuted? Who put Saddam in power in the first place? Who propped him up for all those years?
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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Saddam put Saddam in power...

"Modeling himself after Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, Hussein soon became the real power figure in the Iraqi government, particularly through his role as head of the secret police. By 1979 he was ready to take over, so he muscled his cousin into resigning. Finally, and officially, Saddam Hussein was ruling Iraq."

http://tlc.discovery.com/convergence/iraqwar/timeline/timeline.html
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
Reverend Blair said:
Intervention is SOMETIMES required. That's what the UN is for.

No, the UN is for feeding Kofi's son, while Kofi doesn't know about it

Reverend Blair said:
Yeah, and you should invade Vietnam again to teach them a lesson and we'd better get busy going after Japan and Germany again for WWII.

Don't have to, they have been "democratized". Vietnam is getting there.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
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RE: There is no military

Obviously the way that terrorism is being fought currently is NOT working.

In fact it seems to be making more and more terrorists.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
No, the UN is for feeding Kofi's son, while Kofi doesn't know about it

That's a load of crap, and I suspect you know it. Did you see the article on Bremer stealing billions from the people of Iraq? He's as anti-UN as you and as crooked as George Bush.

Don't have to, they have been "democratized". Vietnam is getting there.

And Iraq has been out of Kuwait for over a decade. By the way, you'll notice that Vietnam didn't democratize while your country was there shooting people and propping up corrupt regimes in the south.



Saddam put Saddam in power...

Saddam had the on-again/off-again backing of the CIA since George Bush Sr. was head of the CIA. The full and open support by the US government came under Reagan. Funny how that works.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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It was better than supporting Iran at that moment in time...they thought.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
Reverend Blair said:
That's a load of crap, and I suspect you know it. Did you see the article on Bremer stealing billions from the people of Iraq? He's as anti-UN as you and as crooked as George Bush.

Yup, I'm anti-UN, I lost faith when I see resolutions don't mean anything. And I also lost faith when they appoint a dictator in charge of Human Rights.

Reverend Blair said:
And Iraq has been out of Kuwait for over a decade. By the way, you'll notice that Vietnam didn't democratize while your country was there shooting people and propping up corrupt regimes in the south.

Yes I noticed, we were busy fighting your commie friends.

Reverend Blair said:
Saddam had the on-again/off-again backing of the CIA since George Bush Sr. was head of the CIA. The full and open support by the US government came under Reagan. Funny how that works.

Yeah, it's called cold war relics. You know, when your friends tried to take over the world back then. Have to admit, they did a good job.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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"Yeah, it's called cold war relics. You know, when your friends tried to take over the world back then. Have to admit, they did a good job."


Were still trying to clean up that scourge...
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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Yes the UCCR "United Corporate Capitalist Republics"...